Are conservatives evil?

[CUDA]

I see what you're doing, you're intentionally being stupid

Lack: Verb phrases

To lack in, to be short of or deficient in:

What he lacks in brains,

try to keep up.

[vision]

I see what you're doing, you're intentionally being stupid

Lack: Verb phrases

To lack in, to be short of or deficient in:

What he lacks in brains,

try to keep up.

I think what is lacking here is your understanding that words have meanings. I know deep thoughts are not something you are used to, but try and come up with an explanation of how a mere mortal like myself has the power to make an omnipresent being "absent" from someplace -- anyplace.

I'm serious. Can you do it? You seem confident in your beliefs. Shouldn't be too hard.

First you need to have a BASIC grasp of english, An absence of something does not mean non existence, it can mean a lack of, not void of.

ab·sence (bsns)
n.
1. The state of being away.
2. The time during which one is away.
3. Lack; want: an absence of leadership.
4. The state of being absent-minded; inattentiveness: absence of mind.

How is God both "away" and "ever present" simultaneously? Is God occasionally "inattentive?"

om·ni·pres·ent (mn-prznt)
adj.
Present everywhere simultaneously.

[CUDA]

Synonyms: absence, dearth, want
Related Words deficiency, deficit, failure, famine, inadequacy, inadequateness, insufficiency, meagerness, paucity, poverty, scantiness, scantness, scarceness, scarcity, shortage, skimpiness, undersupply; deprivation, loss, necessity, need, needfulness, omission; privation; blankness, emptiness, vacuity, vacuum, void

You want to play stupid, play stupid. Thats fine with me.

[sigma]

Who can explain to me what is God? Or an abstract creation of the human brain to protect from reality, or as dependence on the pleasure of addiction? Or you taught to believe in God, like a dog trained to fetch a stick? Who are some of the faithful generally has an inverse relationship with God? If you write a message to me, I will answer you. In contrast to God. I do not understand who you are talking to, when you pray to God. God can give you money or cure of the disease? If you can convince an atheist for the existence of so-called "God," I will be very surprised.

It would be a long conversation, and a topic couldn't hope to stay focused long enough to deal with it, in my opinion.

There are several ways I might begin to approach the subject, but I think the most straight-forward would be to say that all people have a spirit but most people are not really conscious of it or don't allow a place for it in their thinking. ...

I'm really surprised. You could give a short and clear answer to a very broad question. You made me think to rethink my attitude to faith in God and the Bible. Now I have a much better understanding of believers...

[Foil]

CUDA, vision, either debate the topic without taking shots at each other's intelligence, or keep it to yourselves.

[sigma]

In my opinion the basis of good and evil inherent in the genetic program of highly developed animals primarily as instincts. People by nature are predators. And rival. The males fight each other for females, the tribes are fighting each other for the best place in the sun. This can be called genetic evil. On the other hand, highly evolved animals have a sense of compassion, caring and mutual support when they see that other animal is in trouble. This can be called genetic good. Although people is a bit more complicated, because it also depends on the education and the environment in which they grew up or live.

[callmeslick]

CUDA, vision, either debate the topic without taking shots at each other's intelligence, or keep it to yourselves.

and both of them touch on some VERY interesting viewpoints. For instance, Vision's questioning of CUDA citing an individual somehow causing the absence or avoiding the presence of God is valid. How can an all-powerful diety be made to 'go away' by a mere mortal? No need for anyone getting snarky over the intelligence of others. These are questions that have been open to human debate forever.

[CUDA]

show me where I said we could make him "GO AWAY"

[vision]

show me where I said we could make him "GO AWAY"

If we can't make him "go away" then he can never be absent in our lives. Or, to be absent, he leaves willingly. Which is it, CUDA? If evil is the absence of God, but we have no control of the absence of an omnipresent being, then how is it that evil exists?

[Foil]

Looks like some clarification is in order?

By "lack", I'm surmising CUDA is referring to a lack of godly action/influence in the person's life, not a lack of presence (which you're correct, vision, would contradict the concept of an omnipresent deity).

[CUDA]

Looks like some clarification is in order?

By "lack", I'm surmising CUDA is referring to a lack of godly action/influence in the person's life, not a lack of presence (which you're correct, vision, would contradict the concept of an omnipresent deity).

IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!!

Vision didn't get it because he didn't want to get it and chose to play word games

I actually said that from the start

God in your life.

[vision]

Looks like some clarification is in order?

By "lack", I'm surmising CUDA is referring to a lack of godly action/influence in the person's life, not a lack of presence (which you're correct, vision, would contradict the concept of an omnipresent deity).

IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!!

OK, as long as we are clear that there are limits on God's power. Thanks!

[CUDA]

Looks like some clarification is in order?

By "lack", I'm surmising CUDA is referring to a lack of godly action/influence in the person's life, not a lack of presence (which you're correct, vision, would contradict the concept of an omnipresent deity).

IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!!

OK, as long as we are clear that there are limits on God's power. Thanks!

and what limits would you be referring to?

[sigma]

But I do not understand why the Bible explains the existence in any person two "I" as the opposition (or dialogue) God and the devil (or good and evil). In my opinion, these two mental "I" argue among themselves, as they are the product of two different hemispheres of the brain, because one is responsible for emotions, and the other for logic.

[vision]

Looks like some clarification is in order?

By "lack", I'm surmising CUDA is referring to a lack of godly action/influence in the person's life, not a lack of presence (which you're correct, vision, would contradict the concept of an omnipresent deity).

IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!!

OK, as long as we are clear that there are limits on God's power. Thanks!

and what limits would you be referring to?

The one where I have the power to reduce or eliminate the influence of an omnipresent being, to make it "absent" from my life.

[Tunnelcat]

apparently I didn't clarify myself well enough.
since we were talking about why MAN is evil I assumed you would have put 2+2 together

you are a creation of free will, and "evil" as it was is an ABSENCE of God in your life.

No, that's an excuse to label evil people as Godless. There are plenty of good people who don't believe in or follow God. You don't NEED God to be a good person. You need a conscience and empathy. I don't really believe in God, but I consider myself a good person with a conscience. Where did I get a conscience? I don't know. Maybe I learned it in childhood or through the school of hard knocks, but it wasn't because I worshiped God. I do find myself full of anger at times, but I don't use that personality issue to do evil things BECAUSE I have a conscience. I also feel best when I do good things for others, so that tends to cancel out the anger. On the flip side, there are plenty of evil people who worship God thinking that will absolve them of their sins, sins that they do over and over freely because they believe they have an easy out. What a crock.

[Tunnelcat]

But I do not understand why the Bible explains the existence in any person two "I" as the opposition (or dialogue) God and the devil (or good and evil). In my opinion, these two mental "I" argue among themselves, as they are the product of two different hemispheres of the brain, because one is responsible for emotions, and the other for logic.

My husband's personality is a example of the 2 separate brain hemispheres. He was born with a defect in his right brain that gave it a very large ventricle, so there's not as much right brain tissue as a normal person has. As a consequence, he tends to think mostly in terms of logic because his left brain is far more developed and normal. I'd call him the quintessential nerd, somewhat emotionless to talk to, but very logical in his thinking. He's so logical at times, emotional people tend to get confused or pissed off at his comments. His brain was in the perfect condition for becoming an electrical engineer.

[sigma]

apparently I didn't clarify myself well enough.
since we were talking about why MAN is evil I assumed you would have put 2+2 together

you are a creation of free will, and "evil" as it was is an ABSENCE of God in your life.

No, that's an excuse to label evil people as Godless. There are plenty of good people who don't believe in or follow God. You don't NEED God to be a good person. You need a conscience and empathy. I don't really believe in God, but I consider myself a good person with a conscience. Where did I get a conscience? I don't know. Maybe I learned it in childhood or through the school of hard knocks, but it wasn't because I worshiped God. I do find myself full of anger at times, but I don't use that personality issue to do evil things BECAUSE I have a conscience. I also feel best when I do good things for others, so that tends to cancel out the anger. On the flip side, there are plenty of evil people who worship God thinking that will absolve them of their sins, sins that they do over and over freely because they believe they have an easy out. What a crock.

neither add nor subtract

[sigma]

But I do not understand why the Bible explains the existence in any person two "I" as the opposition (or dialogue) God and the devil (or good and evil). In my opinion, these two mental "I" argue among themselves, as they are the product of two different hemispheres of the brain, because one is responsible for emotions, and the other for logic.

My husband's personality is a example of the 2 separate brain hemispheres. He was born with a defect in his right brain that gave it a very large ventricle, so there's not as much right brain tissue as a normal person has. As a consequence, he tends to think mostly in terms of logic because his left brain is far more developed and normal. I'd call him the quintessential nerd, somewhat emotionless to talk to, but very logical in his thinking. He's so logical at times, emotional people tend to get confused or pissed off at his comments. His brain was in the perfect condition for becoming an electrical engineer.

Judging by the fact that a month ago, I deliberately made an accident on the road to stop the car and give a good lesson for the fool, looks like I have more developed right hemisphere... And when I saw that the driver was a young girl, then I felt like an idiot.

[CUDA]

and what limits would you be referring to?

The one where I have the power to reduce or eliminate the influence of an omnipresent being, to make it "absent" from my life.

maybe your starting to figure it out after all. maybe there is hope for you. What you are offered is a gift, you can refuse it. but the gift is still there. if you don't want God in your life, he'll back away, but that wont take away the consequences of your choices.
And FYI thanks for bringing this discussion full circle.

you are a creation of free will, and "evil" as it was is an ABSENCE of God in your life.

next time lets try not wasting two pages of word play on your part to get to this point. and just so there is no confusion on your part

free will
noun
1.the ability to act at one's own discretion.

so let me make my statement so literal that you can understand it.

you as a creation of God's have the ability to act at your own discretion, and "EVIL" as it was, is a insufficiency of God in your life.

[vision]

you as a creation of God's have the ability to act at your own discretion, and "EVIL" as it was, is a insufficiency of God in your life.

That's totally cool of your god to give people the power, if they choose, to remove his influence from their life then "do evil" onto others, thus creating suffering and pain on to those who do accept god into their life. Sounds like a brilliant plan! It's nice that people who choose to do evil are given a priority over those who choose to be free from evil. Super smart god. All hail.

Really, think about how stupid that is. If I ask god for protection from evil, he can't deliver because of "free will." Laughable, impotent god.

[CUDA]

you as a creation of God's have the ability to act at your own discretion, and "EVIL" as it was, is a insufficiency of God in your life.

That's totally cool of your god to give people the power, if they choose, to remove his influence from their life then "do evil" onto others, thus creating suffering and pain on to those who do accept god into their life. Sounds like a brilliant plan! It's nice that people who choose to do evil are given a priority over those who choose to be free from evil. Super smart god. All hail.

Really, think about how stupid that is. If I ask god for protection from evil, he can't deliver because of "free will." Laughable, impotent god.

who said he cant deliver. YOU?????
and how do you figure they are given priority????

I told you, when you chose a different path then there are consequences. did you chose to ignore that part? considering you've ignored every other point I've made it seems obvious that the answer is Yes.

you think so linear. there is more to life, the universe and beyond than whats infront of your eyes

[callmeslick]

maybe your starting to figure it out after all. maybe there is hope for you. What you are offered is a gift, you can refuse it. but the gift is still there. if you don't want God in your life, he'll back away, but that wont take away the consequences of your choices.

so, what you're saying is that your view of God is an entity that is kind enough to offer a gift, but for those that refuse, NO MATTER HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIFE, there will be consequences?

you as a creation of God's have the ability to act at your own discretion, and "EVIL" as it was, is a insufficiency of God in your life.

ah, but that infers that goodness and belief in God are somehow intertwined. Far too many examples otherwise to say that evil is all about lack of God in one's life. Countless good, even truly great, people walk this earth and never believe in your God, many not in ANY God.

[CUDA]

maybe your starting to figure it out after all. maybe there is hope for you. What you are offered is a gift, you can refuse it. but the gift is still there. if you don't want God in your life, he'll back away, but that wont take away the consequences of your choices.

so, what you're saying is that your view of God is an entity that is kind enough to offer a gift, but for those that refuse, NO MATTER HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIFE, there will be consequences?

Not My words

Ephesians 2 New International Version (NIV)

Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

you as a creation of God's have the ability to act at your own discretion, and "EVIL" as it was, is a insufficiency of God in your life.

ah, but that infers that goodness and belief in God are somehow intertwined. Far too many examples otherwise to say that evil is all about lack of God in one's life. Countless good, even truly great, people walk this earth and never believe in your God, many not in ANY God.

I cannot argue with what you said, in basic terms. there is a certain amount of up bringing and teaching that will dictate how we live our lives. whether we DO good or DO evil. but what we are talking about is what IS good and what is evil. that is something that is beyond our physical nature.

[vision]

ME: Hey God, can I kick you to the curb and wreak havoc on all of creation?

GOD: Sure you can! I respect your decision and won't get in the way.

YOU: God, as your humble and faithful servant, please deliver me from evil.

GOD: Ow. Sorry, no can do. You see, I gave that guy over there 'free will,' so I can't really do anything to help you. But keep the faith brother!

...and thus the classic problem of evil.

but what we are talking about is what IS good and what is evil. that is something that is beyond our physical nature.

And anything beyond out physical nature is below significance since none of that spiritual nonsense can be proven to exist. Your definition of good and evil is purely based on upbringing, just like everyone else. The difference is that you attribute everything to an imaginary god and other don't. Hell, those who believe in god can't even agree on good and evil. Waste. Of. Time.

[Tunnelcat]

OK CUDA, question. You talk about free will. Are mentally ill people evil? The church once thought that they were possessed by the devil and treated as such. Now that we know that's not the case, are they still evil, even if they kill other people?

[CUDA]

ME: Hey God, can I kick you to the curb and wreak havoc on all of creation?

GOD: Sure you can! I respect your decision and won't get in the way.

YOU: God, as your humble and faithful servant, please deliver me from evil.

GOD: Ow. Sorry, no can do. You see, I gave that guy over there 'free will,' so I can't really do anything to help you. But keep the faith brother!

...and thus the classic problem of evil.

and to quote Paul Harvey. now for the rest of the story

Luke 15:11-32New International Version (NIV)

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

This is the God I know.
I know not this god which you speak of

but what we are talking about is what IS good and what is evil. that is something that is beyond our physical nature.

And anything beyond out physical nature is below significance since none of that spiritual nonsense can be proven to exist. Your definition of good and evil is purely based on upbringing, just like everyone else. The difference is that you attribute everything to an imaginary god and other don't. Hell, those who believe in god can't even agree on good and evil. Waste. Of. Time.

yet you continue to participate, what does that say about your position?

[CUDA]

OK CUDA, question. You talk about free will. Are mentally ill people evil? The church once thought that they were possessed by the devil and treated as such. Now that we know that's not the case, are they still evil, even if they kill other people?

TC, cant say I have all the answers. I don't, but I can honestly say the God of the Bible would probably treat them like Children.

But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

the Church did a lot of things I don't agree with. still does, that is primarily why I am not a fan of "Religion"

[sigma]

I do not know, I do not know. All my life I was an atheist, and I think I'll be an atheist. Nevertheless, Sergeant Thorne was able to convince me that my soul is a part of God (my Creator) just as in me blood of my parents. I will always respect my father (or God is in this context), but I am not obliged to obey him to such an extent as to lose my own personal freedom.

[vision]

...and to quote Paul Harvey. now for the rest of the story

Luke 15:11-32New International Version (NIV)

This is the God I know.
I know not this god which you speak of

And what has this to do with anything? Now, if the younger son killed his brother and the father refused to protect the older son, then we would have an equivalent commentary. Instead, you dish-out some bible garbage that is no where close to addressing the issue at hand. Good. Job. CUDA. Way to put the problem of evil and God's impotence to rest.

yet you continue to participate, what does that say about your position?

Sorry, I'm compelled to counter bull★■◆● with better ideas wherever I read them. It's my divine mission.

[CUDA]

yet you continue to participate, what does that say about your position?

Sorry, I'm compelled to counter bull★■◆● with better ideas wherever I read them. It's my divine mission.

well when you come up with a better Idea we'll be waiting to hear about the marvels of the brain of vision, it should be a VERY short conversation, I'm sure it will be somewhere along the lines of your extreme brilliance in the racist thread

OH and FYI, you never said anything about killing anyone in your example. way to ★■◆● up your own point

[sigma]

This dialogue CUDA and Vision reminds me of my conversation with the priest when I was trying to understand the meaning of religion. Atheist always ready and willing to understand the believers, while believers are not able and do not want to understand the other point of view.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I do not know, I do not know. All my life I was an atheist, and I think I'll be an atheist. Nevertheless, Sergeant Thorne was able to convince me that my soul is a part of God (my Creator) just as in me blood of my parents. I will always respect my father (or God is in this context), but I am not obliged to obey him to such an extent as to lose my own personal freedom.

Do you mean your freedom to determine for yourself what you will to do, Sigma?

Our fathers are imperfect men who are at best doing the best they know how at an average of a mere 25-50 years on the earth, nevertheless in our youth they are responsible for our lives, and as we mature they are still the ones who we come from, and who brought us up in our youth. IMO at some point we as young men reach a point in young life where we necessarily rely on our own decisions to the point where we cannot have another man telling us what to do (since we have come some distance necessarily relying on our own means). With the creator it is different. I believe that with God we are as children, but with regard to other men we must be men--standing on equal ground. The God of the Bible never asks us to be children among men, but men among men giving to God his due. "He hath shown thee oh man what is good, and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with they God." It was not some freak accident that we were created with free will, but we are expected to use that free will to know and to do what is right. Just as your personal freedom is not necessarily damaged by cooperating with your father, your personal freedom remains in-tact in choosing to cooperate with the will of a perfectly just and merciful God who knows the beginning from the end--it's all a matter of where your heart is at. Did you know that the historical servants of God were not mindless automatons, but expressed their misgivings or concerns to a God who answered back with words and not swift destruction?

[CUDA]

This dialogue CUDA and Vision reminds me of my conversation with the priest when I was trying to understand the meaning of religion. Atheist always ready and willing to understand the believers, while believers are not able and do not want to understand the other point of view.

Hardly..... you seem to forget that Believers started out as non believers. it's not usually the other way around.

[vision]

well when you come up with a better Idea we'll be waiting to hear about the marvels of the brain of vision, it should be a VERY short conversation...

The better idea, as stated by myself and other time and time again is that good and evil are human constructs and our morality is based on reason and emotion to varying degrees. Sure it makes some things less black and white, but in return this view offers us a observable, testable framework for understanding good and evil in the world -- and without superstitious babble. Also, having everything reduced to black and white is not always desired.

OH and FYI, you never said anything about killing anyone in your example. way to ★■◆● up your own point

It doesn't matter if anyone was killed. You can change "kill" to "stole from his brother," or "slandered" or "disgraced" or whatever you want. It makes no difference. The point is, the older brother encountered no evil from the actions of the younger and the father (God) was presented no opportunity to prevent anything. The question at hand is God's impotence. This parable primarily addresses God's capacity for forgiveness.

I know you think just tossing around some random bible quote gets you off the hook, and maybe it does with unthinking types, but it won't work here. Try harder and stay on topic.

[sigma]

If I'm still alive, then God takes care of me. When, I, a hardened atheist, went to church, praying and lighting a candle. But I no longer believe in the ability of God. God did not cure my mother from cancer. In my opinion, the Creator has only its materialistic goals in relation to people's lives. I think sooner or later, it will be explained in terms of science, for what purpose people need for God.

[callmeslick]

This dialogue CUDA and Vision reminds me of my conversation with the priest when I was trying to understand the meaning of religion. Atheist always ready and willing to understand the believers, while believers are not able and do not want to understand the other point of view.

Hardly..... you seem to forget that Believers started out as non believers. it's not usually the other way around.

not really, CUDA. I don't know the folks you come in contact with, but most believers I encounter were the children of believers,who in turn were children of believers. I would think that conversion rates are likely close to attrition rates.

[Sergeant Thorne]

If I'm still alive, then God takes care of me. When, I, a hardened atheist, went to church, praying and lighting a candle. But I no longer believe in the ability of God. God did not cure my mother from cancer. In my opinion, the Creator has only its materialistic goals in relation to people's lives. I think sooner or later, it will be explained in terms of science, for what purpose people need for God.

I don't want to be insensitive to a painful subject, Sigma, but what reason would you have to believe that God would cure your mother of cancer?

[Tunnelcat]

Why do people pray for their sick children instead of going to the doctor for help? There are many Christian sects that believe that their prayers to God will be directly answered.These people believe that prayers will give results. Most times though, they do not, yet they still try.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I think the cases which have been made public are a matter of ignorant people trying to be logically consistent with their faith, because trusting God only in the face of disease or sickness is a solid Biblical concept (which most modern churches deny). One of the problems is that most people are not in a position to obtain healing from God in our day. The short explanation, in my mind, is that it's kind of like going up to a gang assembled at the corner all by yourself because you don't want to feel like a coward, and getting mugged as a result. What were you concerned with? Are these people not taking their children to the doctor because they trust in God and are assured of his care for their children, or are they doing it because they don't want to feel like hypocrites in their own mind or in front of their group (church... whatever). Divine healing is a Biblical and historical precedent (however shrouded/muddled), but in our world and our society there are serious obstacles.

I have an uncle that tried to convert to Christianity (nothing to do with my family or faith, but he did speak with my dad about it) to see his mother healed when she was on her deathbed from a lifetime of smoking. She died, and as far as I know he rejected God afterwards and holds it against my dad.