The World Moves On

[woodchip]

Found the following to be rather astounding. It seems that Christians in China outnumber communists. Anyone want to take a stab as to why this might be?

[vision]

Found the following to be rather astounding. It seems that Christians in China outnumber communists. Anyone want to take a stab as to why this might be?

Well, it could have something to do with the fact they aren't mutually exclusive...

[woodchip]

The communist party is avowed atheist. There is only one party that rules China. Christian churches are being destroyed as religion is not approved. So why is this (OP) not mutually exclusive?

[sigma]

Found the following to be rather astounding. It seems that Christians in China outnumber communists. Anyone want to take a stab as to why this might be?

You said just nonsense.
Given that the entire population of China is communist, Christians just physically can not be more than the population of the country.

[sigma]

The communist party is avowed atheist. There is only one party that rules China. Christian churches are being destroyed as religion is not approved. So why is this (OP) not mutually exclusive?

There dismantled several Protestant churches. Protestants can not be called Christians in the full sense. In fact, Protestants are Christians-anarchists.

[vision]

Woodchip, I think you have a misunderstanding about life in China. Most people do. The communism in China is a different brand of communism.China itself is a huge country made of several semi-autonomous regions, Tibet being the most famous of those (Buddhism anyone?). Religion is also handled differently from region to region with large swaths of people who have both Western and Eastern practices. I hate to say it, but the this is a pretty complicated subject and I would strongly recommend you do some independent research before suggesting there is a conflict between Christianity and Communism as defined in the West. My guess is you got riled up by some click-bait article and decided to start a thread (something you vowed not to do). Speaking of which, let's see you post some facts.

[woodchip]

Perhaps vision I am not explaining clearly. My perspective starts back in the 60's (which I suspect you may not of been born yet) when the Red Guard started their purge of just about anyone who was not a true Maoist. Christians and their churchs were targets.
https://books.google.com/books?id=boYnc ... ge&f=false


From this "pure" form of communism (or better...pure form of Maoism) we now see Christians outnumbering communists. the point here is a govt, even as strongly anti-religious as the Chinese govt is/was, cannot contain religious beliefs.

[callmeslick]

I'm still waiting to see those numbers documented, Woody. Not that it would be unthinkable, but I would like to see proof of the claim.

[sigma]

Who told you, woodchip, that religion is a constant of the human soul? Many people have no idea what is Christianity and they have never heard about Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, these people have more of the human soul, because they are free from religion.

[vision]

Perhaps vision I am not explaining clearly.

No, I understand you perfectly. I'm trying to explain in as few words as possible how your initial, currently unverified statement is not a big deal.

(which I suspect you may not of been born yet)

Think again.

My perspective starts back in the 60's ... when the Red Guard started their purge of just about anyone who was not a true Maoist.

A lot has changed since the 60's. Your perspective should too.

From this "pure" form of communism (or better...pure form of Maoism) we now see Christians outnumbering communists.

Again, this is a huge topic not really suited for this retarded forum and involves delving into Chinese history and philosophy for which I have above average knowledge, but far from expert knowledge. However, I know enough to realize that no matter how much I try to explain the situation in China it would have no effect on you. Woodchip believes what woodchip believes and that is all he believes.

the point here is a govt, even as strongly anti-religious as the Chinese govt is/was, cannot contain religious beliefs.

The most obvious reason for this is because burning down churches is more damaging to public relations than the actual religious threat to government. In other words, religion is tolerated when it doesn't get in the way of governance. The opposite is true in Tibet where Buddhist temples are still being destroyed and practitioner's imprisoned by the Communist Party. To top it off, Buddhism is atheistic!

Another point is that "communists" might only refer to those registered to the party. This is a small subset of the Chinese population. The fact there are allegedly more Christians than communists is, again, no big deal.

Any change in religious policy in China is most likely part of a much larger suppression campaign. Are you starting to get the picture?

[woodchip]

I'm still waiting to see those numbers documented, Woody. Not that it would be unthinkable, but I would like to see proof of the claim.

Unlike your posts, I can supply links:

http://spectator.org/articles/60313/mor ... ty-members

"Gao Shining of the Institute of World Religions at the Chinese Academy of Social Science observed that religious beliefs “have mushroomed in China over the past 35 years,” with some 300 million Chinese claiming some faith.

The number of Christians was estimated in 2011 by Pew Research at 67 million. However, the number may be substantially higher today."

http://www.catholic.org/news/internatio ... p?id=58218

"LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - China's Communist Party is the largest atheist organization in the world, with 85 million official members. However, there are an estimated 100 million Christians in China, according to Breitbart."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... /?page=all

"State-sanctioned Protestant and Catholic churches in China count up to 35 million followers, making Christianity the third most practiced religion in the country after Buddhism and Taoism. Islam ranks fourth.

Even more significant is a steadily growing network of underground or “house” churches, which are said to have up to 100 million members."

Hopefully these are enough links from varied sources. Unlike you slick, I can back up my postings.

[woodchip]

My perspective starts back in the 60's ... when the Red Guard started their purge of just about anyone who was not a true Maoist.

A lot has changed since the 60's. Your perspective should too.

I merely said I was astounded. Until I read this I didn't think there would be such a large number of Chinese practicing a Christian faith. And yes I realize Christian missionaries have been proselytizing there since before the communists took over. I guess seeing actual numbers is a eye opener so in that sense my perspective has changed.

From this "pure" form of communism (or better...pure form of Maoism) we now see Christians outnumbering communists.

Again, this is a huge topic not really suited for this retarded forum and involves delving into Chinese history and philosophy for which I have above average knowledge, but far from expert knowledge. However, I know enough to realize that no matter how much I try to explain the situation in China it would have no effect on you. Woodchip believes what woodchip believes and that is all he believes.

And you would be wrong. In college I took a Honors class on China as a elective.

Any change in religious policy in China is most likely part of a much larger suppression campaign. Are you starting to get the picture?

No, I got that picture back in the 60's. Suppression or not, Christianity is growing and evidently giving the Chinese something their govt. cannot.

[callmeslick]

waiiiiit a minute. Your link claimed 67 million Christians in the past with 'substantially'(no hard number) more today. There are ONE BILLION Chinese, and no mention of how many are Communists. I strongly suspect that your initial claim, Woody, is bogus. No, there are NOT more Christians than Communists.



Now, in a related note, I recently watched a TV news piece with the wife on the higher demand for butlers, maids and kitchen staff for wealthy Chinese. Perhaps, it can be said that the number of capitalists might be getting close to the number of Communists.

[woodchip]

I suggest slick, you actually read the links. the pew research number was in 2011 and was a estimate also. That was based on known christians. Now try and factor in those christians who are keeping quiet. Then factor in another 3 years. Then read the other links. First you don't think any of it is true. then I supply links and you don't read them. You don't even read all that i pasted. All you saw was 67 million and thought "Aha, got him". I suggest you read the Washington Times quote and re-think your point of view.

[callmeslick]

the day I read anything from the Washington Times(a Moonie publication), and take it seriously, will be the first time.