how DO we effectively address terrorism?

[callmeslick]

And, make no mistake, my thinking is the terrorism from Jihadi groups such as the recent barbarity in France and much more. I decided to make this a separate threat after pondering the matter during morning errands, and noting Flabby's astute observations regarding how Americans seem to avoid developing cohesiveness, due to petty political nonsense. There is no doubt, some plan should be developed to effective counter and reduce the threat of Jihadi types. There SHOULD be no doubt that measures taken since 2001 have failed, miserably. On the plus side, we do seem to have made intelligence gathering more robust(US officials had the French brothers on the watch list, despite no evidence of intent to come here). But, we've not stopped the recruitment, nor the appeal of a radical, minority position within the Muslim religion. Now, every time I mention that the vast majority of Muslims don't think this way, the US right wingers go nuts. Still, I'm right, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a severe problem. If only 5% of the Islamic world bought into the Jihadi interpretation of the Koran, you would be talking about 50 Million radicalized individuals. Further, you get concentrated pockets in areas with economic, civil rights and other stressful condidtions. As with any radical philosophy, from Fascism to various other totalistarian schemes, people are receptive when desperate for some reason(usually economic).
So, how does the West, largely non-Muslim, work to help the Muslim world address it's wayward minority, which is, in effect jeapordizing ALL Muslims as well as doing damage to Westerners? How should the Muslim world address it, more importantly? Try to imagine, fellow Americans, if 5% of all Christians started to accept a radical Biblical interpretation that justified violence of profound magnitude, and insisted on a world of Christian purity or death to all that oppose it? How would the US address the latter?
At least as I see it, these questions haven't easy answers, nor sure fire solutions.
Your thoughts?

[Will Robinson]

Tower this is flight #101 Irony Airlines departing right on time from gate #Lol.
We have clear skies and a clear view over the top of callmelicks head as the impetus of the other thread completely escapes him.

He does a good John Kerry impersonation though....for whatever that is worth.

[callmeslick]

<facepalm>

if Will is any indication, we are doomed, as a nation and a civilization. Anyone else care to contribute something other than
bitter, dimwitted bon mots? Please, give me some hope that Flabby exaggerated our dysfunction.

[sigma]

callmeslick, you answered yourself your question in the title of this topic. The name of the topic already implies that the West puts himself against the rest of the world. That is, "what do we do, how we are going to fight?" etc. Than the West differs from Sigma, which is constantly making the same mistake - fighting alone with all Americans and non-Americans here, although in fact we are like-minded people and friends?

[Tunnelcat]

Religious extremism will be the death of us all, because now it's a fight between civilizations who all think God in on their side.

[callmeslick]

Sigma, I sort of meant 'we' as meaning 'humanity'. I'm quite aware that this is a global issue, necessitating global thinking. I was aiming only towards the US audience as a response to the observation(correct) by Flabby Chick that Americans obsessed on petty issues(partisan politics, mainly) are well on the way towards leaving their nation unprepared.

[callmeslick]

Religious extremism will be the death of us all, because now it's a fight between civilizations who all think God in on their side.

but, TC, do the vast bulk of those civilizations(meaning the vast bulk of the populace) REALLY see such a fight, or desire one? I don't think so, personally. Sure, the extremists think this way, but do you? Do the vast majority of your neighbors? I don't see it here.

[Spidey]

Well first, at that level of what do we do about why people are becoming terrorists and all of those things at the root levels…I say we do nothing…because we have very little or no influence/affect there.

That particular level must be dealt with by the Muslim community itself.

Now as far as how we should deal with the problem as a nation, my opinion is we should destroy and kill every terrorist we can, and send them the only message that matters…if you hurt us…we hurt you more.

I don’t really give a damn about being loved, I just want respect. (the kind of respect you give to high voltage)

You can dilly dally around with all of the intellectual mumbo jumbo all you want, and if that helps then great, but in the meantime…if you hurt me…I will hurt you back more, that’s the first thing that has to be established…in my opinion…then we can work on other things.

In the end, I seriously doubt this is the kind of thing diplomats will have any affect on, because the people we are dealing with, don’t give a ★■◆● about what we want, or anything to do with “solving” the problems. (they want things their way…period) So I feel in this case the best way to deal with force is more force, at least we may be able to establish some boundaries.

Now of course I could start listing the one hundred and fifty thousand ways we could change our behavior, and I’m sure there are plenty, but my gut says, it probably wouldn’t do any good, and only show weakness.

So I’m going to leave all of the bowing and learning to speak Aramaic to you.

[Krom]

We don't have to do anything we haven't already been doing, there is a reason radical extremists are what they are: because the tide is against them. It won't be tomorrow, it won't be 100 years from now, but it is only a matter of time before the advancement of civilization and technology simply overwhelms religion.

The only question is; Will humanity manage to avoid going extinct before then?

The simplest solution of them all, just out wait our opponents. If we mainly concern ourselves with our own future, we will win, because they don't have a future.

[sigma]

That is what the American mindset elicits aggression from others. You look at my first post as I came here, and what I now become. Of a man who was generally positive attitude toward the United States, I turned to the man who fiercely hates America. Now tell me what it is I was all my fault.

[Spidey]

Hatred is always the fault of the hater.

[sigma]

By the way, I will remind you the experience of Russia in the fight against Muslim extremists and terrorists. As you know, the use of the army in the First and Second Chechen wars led only to increased number of Muslim extremists and the increase in the number of terrorist attacks. Today, the situation has improved and stabilized, because the government is acting exactly diplomatic means. Simply put, traditional Muslims themselves now control the Muslim youth, preventing their introduction in immature brain penetration of Islamic extremism, but already monitoring and control of Muslim leaders from the federal government.

[Foil]

Hatred is always the fault of the hater.

To clarify, are you assigning 100% fault here? Or assigning a significant percentage? Or something else? I'm curious whether you allow for partial fault.

(Heh, perhaps this question is just coming from my work insurance claims so many years ago. )

[sigma]

Hatred is always the fault of the hater.

We hate the ones we love because they can cause the deepest suffering.

[Spidey]

Hatred is always the fault of the hater.

To clarify, are you assigning 100% fault here? Or assigning a significant percentage? Or something else? I'm curious whether you allow for partial fault.

(Heh, perhaps this question is just coming from my work insurance claims so many years ago. )

Hatred is always a choice. Hatred is an emotion that must be nurtured by the hater.

[callmeslick]

.

The only question is; Will humanity manage to avoid going extinct before then?

and that is my core question. We as in all of us. I wondered about the US specifically, but also the greater world populace. We, we all, have a problem.
How does it get solved? My gut is that, as was said above, the core issue HAS to come from within the Muslim community, and that we in the West have very little say, and thus, the less we do to interfere in Muslim lands, the better. That is the difference between Spidey and I, unless I'm reading him wrong. He suggests that we can kill terrorists in some sort of significant numbers, and doesn't seem to limit that to 'on US soil'. The US running around in Muslim nations seeking terrorists to kill is precisely the greatest recruitment tool this movement has at its disposal. Number two is the existence of Israel in many cases, and that is just going to have to be a given.

The simplest solution of them all, just out wait our opponents. If we mainly concern ourselves with our own future, we will win, because they don't have a future.

were it not for the existence on this planet of weapons that can negate your future and mine rather abruptly, I might agree. Sadly, such is not the case, and further, some such weapons are already on the doorstep of availability in Pakistan.

[callmeslick]

By the way, I will remind you the experience of Russia in the fight against Muslim extremists and terrorists. As you know, the use of the army in the First and Second Chechen wars led only to increased number of Muslim extremists and the increase in the number of terrorist attacks. Today, the situation has improved and stabilized, because the government is acting exactly diplomatic means. Simply put, traditional Muslims themselves now control the Muslim youth, preventing their introduction in immature brain penetration of Islamic extremism, but already monitoring and control of Muslim leaders from the federal government.

this post is both pertinent and moreover, exactly the sort of thing I hoped to read(not the specifics, as I'm still quite unsure, but the level of thinking).

[callmeslick]

Hatred is always the fault of the hater.

We hate the ones we love because they can cause the deepest suffering.

not sure I agree. It seems to me that most hatred is directed towards that which the hater doesn't really know or understand at all.

[Spidey]

Most terrorists are not on American soil, so you are correct slick.

Just how do you kill someone without going to where they are?

If Muslim countries don’t like us coming over there to kill terrorists…they can stop harboring them. Maybe if some of these countries get sick and tired enough of our presence, they will do something themselves.

[callmeslick]

Most terrorists are not on American soil, so you are correct slick.

ok, thanks.

Just how do you kill someone without going to where they are?

by waiting for them to come to you, and intervening before they act. The real problem with your logic is shown by this question in response: How, when you get there, do you plan to identify terrorists and NOT kill innocents or even those sympathetic to you?

If Muslim countries don’t like us coming over there to kill terrorists…they can stop harboring them. Maybe if some of these countries get sick and tired enough of our presence, they will do something themselves.

it isn't the harboring, it's the creation of ever more potential terrorists. If they weren't dealing with ever more thanks to us meddling, perhaps they might be able to stifle the problem themselves more effectively.

[callmeslick]

Spidey, have we not, in effect, tried your way? Has it worked?

[Spidey]

Spidey, have we not, in effect, tried your way? Has it worked?

Well, last time I checked, we haven’t had a serious attack here in a very long time.

Seems like they are choosing softer targets now, oh did you mean to stop creating terrorists…no, like I said…that isn’t my job.

[callmeslick]

Spidey, have we not, in effect, tried your way? Has it worked?

Well, last time I checked, we haven’t had a serious attack here in a very long time.

duly noted, with the exception of Boston. That was pretty serious. How much of that has ANYTHING to do with attacking on foreign soil, and how much is due to better intelligence info worldwide?

[Spidey]

Spidey, have we not, in effect, tried your way? Has it worked?

Well, last time I checked, we haven’t had a serious attack here in a very long time.

duly noted, with the exception of Boston. That was pretty serious. How much of that has ANYTHING to do with attacking on foreign soil, and how much is due to better intelligence info worldwide?

Hard to say.

[callmeslick]

if I had data that conclusively supported your hypothesis, I'd change my mind. It simply goes against my gut. Over the past 5 years, we and France are tied for major events. They lost 12 people, we lost similar in Boston with loads more maimed. Sort of a tie there, of a morbid sort. Now, how much has France done on the side of seeking terrorists on foreign soil?

[Krom]

If you want a more immediate "we must do something" solution, even though it is totally unnecessary, then I'd guess the most likely scenario would be...The back story to the the movie "The Terminator" only there won't be any time traveling to save us.

[Tunnelcat]

Religious extremism will be the death of us all, because now it's a fight between civilizations who all think God in on their side.

but, TC, do the vast bulk of those civilizations(meaning the vast bulk of the populace) REALLY see such a fight, or desire one? I don't think so, personally. Sure, the extremists think this way, but do you? Do the vast majority of your neighbors? I don't see it here.

Maybe only one side wants a fight. The 2 cilivizations I'm referring to are Western Civilization and the Arab or Islamic Civilization. It's an old fight they've sorely lost in the past. Europeans, and later, Americans, have walked all over their culture like we did with the Native Indians of this continent and Africans with slavery. But now, I think they want a big win over us. That's why you don't see wholesale condemnation of Islamic Radical Fundamentalism by mainstream Muslims. Oh, they go through the motions with little press releases, but what many secrectly want is the downfall of that corrupt Western Civilization. I think things will get worse before they get better, because neither culture wants to lose.

[callmeslick]

I'm not sure, TC, that part of the problem is the fear engendered in some areas by the radical fringe. Look at how petrified the west gets over an incident once in a while. Now, picture what would happen if, say, a hundred thousand peaceful Muslims marched in Pakistan, or Yemen or the like. Further, in an incident like this last one in France there is a further issue. The cartoons in the paper WERE offensive to devout Muslims. Just as the same magazine led the Catholic Church to sue them several times(note, not firebomb or kill them, merely sue them). Thus, it becomes a matter of publicly decrying the violence, while deploring the content that triggered it. A lot of people tend to sit silent in such a quandry. Not excusing it here, so much as understanding the difficulties.

[Tunnelcat]

You haven't seen large scale demonstrations by Muslims, have you? That's what's scary. The relative silence is very telling, and very worrisome. Silent tacit approval.

As for that French paper, I'm all for free speech, no matter how vulgar, tactless or hateful. But where has good taste, respect and tact gone in this world? Why did this paper keep insulting several religions, especially Islam, even though they knew it was going to cause them very bad problems, which it did? What's the point of pissing off a group of militant-prone people by insulting their religious prophet, people who would just as soon blow your brains out than laugh at your cartoon? Why even whack at the hornet's nest, unless you want to get stung?

[vision]

Why even whack at the hornet's nest, unless you want to get stung?

You use the wrong analogy here. The hornet's nest in on your patio, not sitting harmlessly in a tree elsewhere. The hornets loom over you constantly, preventing peaceful enjoyment of your domain. They need to go. The rapid rise of Islamic radicalism in Europe is the current hornet's nest that needs to be dealt with. The correct tools for removing it are either undiscovered or haven't been invented, and that's why slick prompted this discourse.

[Ferno]

What do we do?

we do nothing. We don't respond, we don't talk, we don't negotiate. We carry on with what we do and not let their fear tactics get to us. we become a still body of water.

[Spidey]

There is no such thing as a still body of water when someone is dropping grenades in it.

I’m all for that Zen response to violence, but after you turn the other cheek, and they slap you there too, what do you offer them next.

How many slaps does it take before you loose it and punch back, how many slaps could be avoided if you simply punched back after the first slap.

I understand what you are saying, but…these are the wrong kind of people to do nothing in response to…because I guarantee, they will take full advantage of it. (and you won’t have anything left to slap)

[Krom]

How exactly do we fight back in order to make this "silent majority" of Muslims break their silence and tell extremists "NO!"...? Right now when some extremist calls for or actively engages in jihad, we spend billions and years tracking them down before we can finally silence them, and even though we try very hard to not harm innocents we frequently fail and cause significant collateral damage in the process which only really makes the whole situation worse. Extremists have the passion and the drive to get into power and that power lets them keep that majority silent by force. If someone does speak out against them, then the extremists have no trouble killing them and blaming it on us. It is a vicious cycle that I really don't think can be broken in our lifetimes because it is also close to perfection.

[CUDA]

What do we do?

we do nothing. We don't respond, we don't talk, we don't negotiate. We carry on with what we do and not let their fear tactics get to us. we become a still body of water.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

[Tunnelcat]

Why even whack at the hornet's nest, unless you want to get stung?

You use the wrong analogy here. The hornet's nest in on your patio, not sitting harmlessly in a tree elsewhere. The hornets loom over you constantly, preventing peaceful enjoyment of your domain. They need to go. The rapid rise of Islamic radicalism in Europe is the current hornet's nest that needs to be dealt with. The correct tools for removing it are either undiscovered or haven't been invented, and that's why slick prompted this discourse.

OK, here's another question. Why has radical Islam risen in the past decade? It didn't just spring up out of nothing. Someone's pissed off. Aren't Europe and America a little culpable in all this mess?

[sigma]

Please tell me how many times West tried to force Muslims to fear silent and obey? And that the West received in response to these attempts? But the United States with the tenacity of a madman continues to advance on the same rake again and again. We will not tolerate! We will not allow! We will fight!
West fights with his own stupidity, so I'll tell you, gentlemen.
I will give another example of how Russia managed to achieve significant progress in the elimination of Muslim extremism in abnormally volatile regions of Russia. We began to develop the economy of the backward regions. Where earlier in the forests and mountains ran the Mujahideen with assault rifles only earnings which was to obtain a ransom for kidnapped Russian citizens and drug trafficking or money from the US and Arab sponsors them to do acts of terrorism and hostage-taking for political purposes of their masters, and now for them built factories , new housing, major cultural and shopping centers, providing subsidies for the development of agriculture. Just let people work in their long-suffering country, and they throw in the trash machine guns and shahid belts! And you continue to sell them weapons, send military advisers to train new mercenaries and extremists, at the same time you bombing their country, and at the same time you complain that they now comes from the terrorist threat... I just do not understand the logic of the American...

[Ferno]

There is no such thing as a still body of water when someone is dropping grenades in it.

I’m all for that Zen response to violence, but after you turn the other cheek, and they slap you there too, what do you offer them next.

How many slaps does it take before you loose it and punch back, how many slaps could be avoided if you simply punched back after the first slap.

I understand what you are saying, but…these are the wrong kind of people to do nothing in response to…because I guarantee, they will take full advantage of it. (and you won’t have anything left to slap)

see that's the thing. they count on any response so they feel validated in their response.

really, the only way to win is not to play the game. They want us to change our ways because they felt besmirched, offended, insulted. Best solution really is to not let them win by simply continuing our lives.

"first they mock you. then they attack you. then you win"

[Spidey]

Well, I feel the solution you offer will work in some cases, for example…a schoolyard bully will not get the satisfaction they want, and ignoring a child’s tantrum will work because the child quickly learns they aren’t getting any results.

Doing nothing in response to people who want to KILL you, has a good chance of getting you DEAD.

No proper response led to a long series of very bad things…first there were the hijackings, which lead to embassy bombings, which lead to the ship bombing, which lead to the first tower attack, which lead to 911. (order may not be exact)

At least now they understand there will be consequences.

[Tunnelcat]

Please tell me how many times West tried to force Muslims to fear silent and obey? And that the West received in response to these attempts? But the United States with the tenacity of a madman continues to advance on the same rake again and again. We will not tolerate! We will not allow! We will fight!
West fights with his own stupidity, so I'll tell you, gentlemen.
I will give another example of how Russia managed to achieve significant progress in the elimination of Muslim extremism in abnormally volatile regions of Russia. We began to develop the economy of the backward regions. Where earlier in the forests and mountains ran the Mujahideen with assault rifles only earnings which was to obtain a ransom for kidnapped Russian citizens and drug trafficking or money from the US and Arab sponsors them to do acts of terrorism and hostage-taking for political purposes of their masters, and now for them built factories , new housing, major cultural and shopping centers, providing subsidies for the development of agriculture. Just let people work in their long-suffering country, and they throw in the trash machine guns and shahid belts! And you continue to sell them weapons, send military advisers to train new mercenaries and extremists, at the same time you bombing their country, and at the same time you complain that they now comes from the terrorist threat... I just do not understand the logic of the American...

Putin's methods don't sound very pleasant for the average citizen to live by in Russia. But I guess Russians are used to authoritarian rule and tolerate it well in exchange for security. We in the U.S. however, abhor too much government authority. I wonder how much terrorism we will tolerate before we surrender our freedoms to fear?

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/ind ... ew/61/html

[CUDA]

Why even whack at the hornet's nest, unless you want to get stung?

You use the wrong analogy here. The hornet's nest in on your patio, not sitting harmlessly in a tree elsewhere. The hornets loom over you constantly, preventing peaceful enjoyment of your domain. They need to go. The rapid rise of Islamic radicalism in Europe is the current hornet's nest that needs to be dealt with. The correct tools for removing it are either undiscovered or haven't been invented, and that's why slick prompted this discourse.

OK, here's another question. Why has radical Islam risen in the past decade? It didn't just spring up out of nothing. Someone's pissed off. Aren't Europe and America a little culpable in all this mess?

history says you're wrong. "Islam" has been doing this since around 700AD