thought provoking

[callmeslick]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magaz ... 31682&_r=0

[Ferno]

I always found the notion of a "job stealing immigrant" funny, since the term implied that a job was this tangible, physical object that a person paid for.

[Nightshade]

I always found the notion of a "job stealing immigrant" funny, since the term implied that a job was this tangible, physical object that a person paid for.

Blame Canada!

[woodchip]

Kinda hard not to imagine they are not stealing jobs:

Census: Record 51 million immigrants in 8 years, will account for 82% of U.S. growth

[callmeslick]

51 million in 8 years? Where the heck do you get THOSE numbers? We've had immigration estimated at about 1 million per year for about a decade, I think it's time to go back and review your data. Are you actually suggesting that a group the size of 16% of the entire US population arrived in the last 8 years? Or, in ANY 8 years?

[vision]

That 51 million number is insane. There aren't even enough new living structures built over that time frame to house that many people. We would see tent cities all over the place if that many people came here in 8 years. It would look like a refugee crisis.

[Ferno]

51 million. heh.

That alone is implying that about 41% of mexico's entire population moved to the US. there is no possible way that happened.

[callmeslick]

so, woody, simple error, or you just made a number up?

[Ferno]

Kinda hard not to imagine they are not stealing jobs:

Hmm, okay. let's imagine a scenario where an immigrant steals a job.

Manager and prospective employee are in an interview. Everything is going well when suddenly about half-way through negotiations, an immigrant, armed with a 9mm, bursts into the room with a gun and says 'YOU! you will give me his job right now or I will shoot you!' The manager says 'Okay, OKAY! You can have his job, just don't hurt me!'

Totally plausible.

[Lothar]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

[Will Robinson]

I have a friend in the UK, he has been trying for years to get some kind of permission to stay here permanently. He has paid an immigration attorney to advance his application...bought a restaurant here to provide jobs for Americans because the lawyer said it would help...his money wasted by the manager he had left in charge because he was legally required to leave the country...you know...trying to do it all legally. So he folded the business, paid his creditors for the failed business, payroll taxes not paid, city, state and federal taxes under reported/not paid, liquor license not paid, fines, interest, etc. etc.

He owns a house here, he had two but had to sell one to pay his debts. He has a skill that isn't common, he repairs and refurbishes vintage electrical/music gear. Like stuff in the control room at Abbey Road Studios....Keith Richard's amplifiers, that kind of stuff. He is sought after by famous people to repair their stuff, etc. He started up a custom guitar amp business while waiting to get in legally.

He would be an asset to our society. His wife also wants a green card, she teaches eastern european immigrants how to speak english and use computers. She would do the same here.
They are willing to pay, to play by the rules, etc.

He is still waiting....and paying...

4 million other people are legally waiting. They have been for years and will not be fast tracked. Most of them have family and jobs here if they could just be allowed in.
I told my friend he should change his last name to Gonzalez and claim to be a Mexican.


So before you tell me we need 10 million more bottom of the food chain workers let my buddy Jesse and his family come live in their house here....and fast track all the other skilled workers on the list while you are at it.

[Ferno]

[youtube]rUTnNKhF-EU[/youtube]

[Spidey]

I don’t buy into the stealing jobs notion, but on the other hand I resent being called a racist because I believe people should come to this country legally.

[woodchip]

Census: Record 51 million immigrants in 8 years, will account for 82% of U.S. growth

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/censu ... le/2563463

A report from the Center for Immigration Studies analyzed new figures from the U.S. Census and found by 2023 51 million legal and illegal immigrants will be living in the country. That's one in seven U.S. residents who were born abroad. It will be the highest immigrant population since 1910.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/04/24/c ... /21175968/

Want to keep looking like a ass because you are too lazy to do a simple google search?

[callmeslick]

no Woody, it is your lack of clarity. What that ESTIMATE claims is that in 8 years,immigrants(which cover migration in a generation) will total 51 million, which seems pretty plausible, and, in terms of historical data, no where near the scale of the influx in the generation around 1910. Folks claimed that the early 20th century wave of Eastern Europeans and Italians would steal jobs, but that worked out just fine for us.

[Will Robinson]

no Woody, it is your lack of clarity. What that ESTIMATE claims is that in 8 years,immigrants(which cover migration in a generation) will total 51 million, which seems pretty plausible, and, in terms of historical data, no where near the scale of the influx in the generation around 1910. Folks claimed that the early 20th century wave of Eastern Europeans and Italians would steal jobs, but that worked out just fine for us.

I don't know how you can imply 'the scale of the influx is nowhere near that of 1910' when, according to Woody's census numbers, the percentage is the same and the population of America is now 300% what it was then,
It seems to be the scale of the influx is, in fact, either very much the same (per capita) or 300% greater in raw numbers of newcomers.

But you have your reasons to characterize it that way I suppose. You injected the qualifier 'in terms of historical data,...what data are you speaking of?

[woodchip]

no Woody, it is your lack of clarity.

Seemed to be a pretty straight forward statement. Didn't know I had to clarify it so a 6 year could understand it.

What that ESTIMATE claims is that in 8 years,immigrants(which cover migration in a generation) will total 51 million, which seems pretty plausible, and, in terms of historical data, no where near the scale of the influx in the generation around 1910. Folks claimed that the early 20th century wave of Eastern Europeans and Italians would steal jobs, but that worked out just fine for us.

Lets see you back up your claims so it is more than just hyperbole.

[callmeslick]

the early 20th century migration to the US DOUBLED our population. It is well documented, not an estimate. No further urge on my part to fill you in on past history, but your assumption is bogus regarding the effects on the economy of your estimated influx.

[Will Robinson]

It took half of the century to double the population.
The current projections have the same ratio of newcomers:population in the next decade and the ratio will be exceeding the historic high beyond that.

So, again, what metric are you using to suggest there is some great difference? Other than to say the difference lies in the opposite direction that you suggest...as in there will be a greater not a relatively smaller ratio by way of the projected rate of influx.



The volume of newcomers is projected to be greater and although it doesn't look to double the population the problem is the volume is enough to have a serious impact on the economy if it flows too fast.
The ratio of non assimilated:established/assimilated is what matters as well, beyond just immediate economic impact. That is why we have immigration laws. To preserve the nature of our culture.

Dismissing the data because it doesn't meet some arbitrary and irrelevant benchmark (a goalpost set by slick) is a red herring.

[vision]

That's a hilarious projection. I'm sure they said the same thing in 1910 before the numbers went down.

[Tunnelcat]

You know what's specious about this whole argument? Every person living in this country who is NOT a native American is either an immigrant or the descendent of an immigrant. This country was started entirely by immigrants. Our ancestors are not native to this land, so why are we griping about the newest immigrants? Are white Europeans starting to dislike the idea becoming a minority?

[callmeslick]

http://www.immigrationeis.org/about-iei ... on-history

percentage-wise 1880-1920 immigrant percentage of populace DWARFS current levels and even Woody's supposed projection.

[Will Robinson]

So what?

In 1913 we had 1.2 million immigrants come in that year alone. Fifteen years later began a ten year period where of an average of only 7000 came in each year.
On its face the numbers mean nothing.
If you know about the effect industrialization of america had, infrastructure, railways, assembly lines, electric light, and then the subsequent great depression, mexican repatriotization, etc. then those numbers mean something.

You can avoid the context and instead point out statistics on the waves of immigration as nothing but numbers and characterize all opinion about immigration as 'other immigrants' complaining and you have never really talked about anything at all....

why is it so important to have our immigration laws that put qualified people on a waiting list that takes years to get to the top of and at the same time the same government is full of representatives who say we need to let other people, most of them less qualified, come in without passing any scrutiny under the guise that we need to let more 'qualified people' in?

Your stats don't explain the reality behind the posturing on the issue.
You aren't trying to address the issue you are just looking for partisan rhetorical fodder.

[woodchip]

percentage-wise 1880-1920 immigrant percentage of populace DWARFS current levels and even Woody's supposed projection.

If you were at all paying attention you would of seen it was not my projection. Then again you never were into the details of what you post anyway.

[Will Robinson]

Apparently the topic is named all wrong. It should read: 'Echo my rhetoric and your role is fulfilled.'

[callmeslick]

to both Will and Woody. The point is that immigration has ALWAYS led to a stronger economy. Now, if you wish to project that THIS time it won't work that way, go ahead. But, everyone should at least be aware that that same claim was made when Irish, Chinese, East European, Italian, Armenian etc, immigrants came here. It never hurt the economy. EVER.

[Ferno]

and besides. Corporations LOOOOVE cheap labor.

[Will Robinson]

it isn't true slick. Waves of immigrants build economy *when* the workforce is starved for bodies relative to the demand for product. We deported over a million Mexican immigrants at the turn of the 20th century because the economy turned south.
We begged them back in when WWII demanded major production increases. They didn't bring that demand with them in their back packs...

You don't just pour bodies into a place and expect the infrastructure and industry to magically expand like Diagon Alley. You have to pace it to make it a viable economic booster.

If you pour too many unqualified bodies into a stagnant economy you create low wages and high dependency on the undersized infrastructure with no immediate increase in GDP/revenue to cover the immediate cost increase to accommodate the influx. The lag time is dozens of years. And you reduce assimilation by doing it that way as well.

And you still haven't addressed the point I raised about the hypocrisy of legislators mandating 4+ million aspiring new immigrants languish years waiting in their home country for legal permission to enter here while the politicians open the southern border, pretend laws don't matter, so less qualified poverty stricken people can come in to keep labor costs down.

"The immigration system is broken"...yea, broken on purpose so the profits can spill out into the right pockets.