Isaac.....

[woodchip]

well, the color sight analogy is amusing, but the truth be told, the both of you really are afraid.....either that, or you have a hightened sense of the danger around you rising to the need to possibly use a weapon in public places. As was alluded to in the Bruce Willis comment above, as I read it.I sort of feel for you all, as I couldn't go through life happily with such a mindset. Most of my fears, such as they are, are around folks who have your mindset without your seeming level of training and (hopefully) personal restraint. I figure I'm at more risk of those folks than actually encountering a life-threatening criminal. Then again, to date, I've encountered neither situation, except for those times in my youth when I knowingly sought them out.

Another troll comment. Actually slick I couldn't go through life with your mindset. Stop psychoanalyzing gun owners as being afraid to mask your own fears. Most gun owners, especially those who carry view people like you as to afraid to protect themselves and live with the misconception that the police will protect them. Perhaps you should stop read propaganda from the Brady campaign.

[callmeslick]

Sometimes I’m happy I’ve got the gun on me, like when my car stranded me at night and I had to walk to a gas station in the dark (clutch line broke open). .

why on Earth would that make you happy? Or, to address the converse, why should someone be unhappy to walk to the gas station in the dark without a piece? Personally, I'd prefer to have a small led flashlight, which I do have.........

[callmeslick]

Another troll comment. Actually slick I couldn't go through life with your mindset. Stop psychoanalyzing gun owners as being afraid to mask your own fears. Most gun owners, especially those who carry view people like you as to afraid to protect themselves and live with the misconception that the police will protect them. Perhaps you should stop read propaganda from the Brady campaign.

fear talking there, loud and clear. It isn't a misconception. The police have protected me every time they've been needed. Works amazingly well for most of us. Methinks it isn't me getting fed propaganda.

[woodchip]

Notice how you keep trolling the fear bit? Becoming a mantra for you. While the police may have been there for you, shall I start listing all the occurrences that they were not? You really have to stop equating your experiences with what reality is. Not very healthy.

[snoopy]

Sometimes I’m happy I’ve got the gun on me, like when my car stranded me at night and I had to walk to a gas station in the dark (clutch line broke open). .

why on Earth would that make you happy? Or, to address the converse, why should someone be unhappy to walk to the gas station in the dark without a piece? Personally, I'd prefer to have a small led flashlight, which I do have.........

Suppose a rabid dog jumps you on the way, or an angry bear, or a deranged squirrel?

[callmeslick]

Notice how you keep trolling the fear bit? Becoming a mantra for you.

excuse me for pointing out the obvious. It isn't some sort of psychoanalysis, it is simply written all over your excuses. Were I to be psychoanalyzing your need to carry a weapon, I'd be discussing sexual inadequacy, parental relationships and childhood traumas. That is out of my league, but fear is pretty obvious here.

While the police may have been there for you, shall I start listing all the occurrences that they were not? You really have to stop equating your experiences with what reality is. Not very healthy.

feel free to detail examples directly from your life. Detailing news items from around the nation is, once again, fear talking.

[callmeslick]

Sometimes I’m happy I’ve got the gun on me, like when my car stranded me at night and I had to walk to a gas station in the dark (clutch line broke open). .

why on Earth would that make you happy? Or, to address the converse, why should someone be unhappy to walk to the gas station in the dark without a piece? Personally, I'd prefer to have a small led flashlight, which I do have.........

Suppose a rabid dog jumps you on the way, or an angry bear, or a deranged squirrel?

exactly the sort of massively unlikely occurrance that leads me to unreasonable fear as the core driver here. Same reason I don't carry sidearm for snakes up in the mountains when fishing. It occurred to me that if I DID encounter a rattlesnake, that it was highly unlikely that I could react fast enough or be accurate enough in time to prevent being bitten. Thus, I carry a tourniquet, instead.

[Spidey]

Yea, the psychoanalyzing BS is over the top, the question really should be, do we take precautions based on normal healthy fear, or on unhealthy fear.

I take precautions so I don’t have to live in fear.

Yea, I’m sure there are some people who are peeing in their pants from fear, and run out and buy a gun, but I doubt they make up more than a few.

In fact I see the entire “fear” line as a ploy, and an insult.

[Isaac]

Well, I disagree, slick.. It's not out of fear. And I do carry a mini-flash light on me. No sure how you thought "carrying a gun" means I must not carry a flashslight either, but ok.

[callmeslick]

Yea, the psychoanalyzing BS is over the top, the question really should be, do we take precautions based on normal healthy fear, or on unhealthy fear.

yup

I take precautions so I don’t have to live in fear.

I look at the odds and probabilities and there is no need for fear

Yea, I’m sure there are some people who are peeing in their pants from fear, and run out and buy a gun, but I doubt they make up more than a few.

here, we disagree. I am pretty sure they make up the vast majority, frankly.

In fact I see the entire “fear” line as a ploy, and an insult.

and I see it as addressing reality. C'est la vie!

[callmeslick]

Well, I disagree, slick.. It's not out of fear. And I do carry a mini-flash light on me. No sure how you thought "carrying a gun" means I must not carry a flashslight either, but ok.

you mentioned the gun in the 'in the dark' situation. I walk in the dark pretty often(generally in very rural locations). The thought of needing or wanting a gun never occurred to me, but the flashlight comes instantly to mind. Now, step back a step or two and ponder why the gun was the first thing you mentioned in that situation. Some of you take umbrage at my suggestion of unreasonable fear of highly unlikely occurrances, but have thus far come up pretty small in rationales past "because I can" to carry. And, if my supposition is true(that most people carry out of such fear) what benefit is it to maintain a society chock full of people carrying weapons and a fear-based psyche? If any of you wonder why we can read, daily, about instances of seemingly senseless escalation of violence with firearms, you need look no further than my premise. I know you don't like that uncomfortable fact. I know it runs counter to what the gun lobby has been telling you. But, it's right there for all to see. For far too many of my fellow citizens, fear is the driver behind owning a gun, behind carrying a gun, behind the goofy thought that 'liberals' are coming for your gun, etc, etc, etc.

[Spidey]

Let me ask you a question, do you carry that tourniquet because:

1. You fear you might be bitten.
2. The possibility of being bitten.

[Isaac]

Slick, being responsible about a possible danger is hardly the same reacting out of emotion. It’s a bit unfair that having a flash light is being prepared while carrying a different tool is sign of fear. Neither are a sign of fear. They’re both tools.

[callmeslick]

Let me ask you a question, do you carry that tourniquet because:

1. You fear you might be bitten.
2. The possibility of being bitten.

likely both. On the other hand, I'm not going to accidentally injure or kill someone with the thing.

[callmeslick]

-9015*9*

Slick, being responsible about a possible danger is hardly the same reacting out of emotion. It’s a bit unfair that having a flash light is being prepared while carrying a different tool is sign of fear. Neither are a sign of fear. They’re both tools.

but one tool kills innocent people daily in this nation. And, it's not the flashlight.

[Isaac]

Slick, if the negligence and gun crimes of conceal carry holders were our only gun crimes we'd almost have no gun crime.

[Ferno]

Except you can take the fire extinguisher and spray it in someones face or a kidnapper could use the seatbelt to restrain his victim from making a rapid escape from his car.

this only happens in the movies.

And you are also forgetting firearms are used for sports as in trap shooting, sporting clays and are used in the Olympics (forget the name of the sport)

Biathlon.

[callmeslick]

Slick, if the negligence and gun crimes of conceal carry holders were our only gun crimes we'd almost have no gun crime.

my original post wasn't about just concealed carry holders, it is about ALL public carry holders. And, how those folks lead to gun crimes by direct misuse, along with lax security leading to stolen weapons. You keep trying to steer it back to the responsible few, while dismissing the reality of the irresponsible many in our nation.

[Isaac]

Slick, if the negligence and gun crimes of conceal carry holders were our only gun crimes we'd almost have no gun crime.

my original post wasn't about just concealed carry holders, it is about ALL public carry holders. And, how those folks lead to gun crimes by direct misuse, along with lax security leading to stolen weapons. You keep trying to steer it back to the responsible few, while dismissing the reality of the irresponsible many in our nation.

Gang memebers carry. Are you talking about them too when you say "all public carry holders"?

[callmeslick]

Gang memebers carry. Are you talking about them too when you say "all public carry holders"?

sure, we could. And, then, we could discuss where they get the weapons from, and get back to the topic of theft and lax laws around weapons transfer at gun shows and other 'private' transactions. Those folks sure aren't buying their weaponry from a sporting goods store, now, are they? In fact, much of the black market trade comes directly from theft of weapons, in which there is a very profitable trade going on(and has been going on for years). The hysteria of the past 6 years and the increase in gun sales generated by it have no doubt jacked the black market up considerably.

[Isaac]

Ok, time-out. Help me out here slick, please.

Topic jumping means we can’t settle any one issue.

I’m trying to address your questions as best as I can, but you keep us changing topic:

1.penalties & gun theft 2. why we carry 3. fear vs preparedness 1. penalties & gun theft.

I have no problem going back to square one, but rather than bailing ship on a topic, let’s stick to one before moving on. Would that not be better?

The last several comments I’ve made were about topic 3 “fear vs preparedness”. Sure it connects to #1, but how can I possibly debate with the target I’m aiming for is no longer the target you want me to aim at. Sure, I’ll talk about whatever you want and answer the best I can, but dang, I think it’d be more helpful to resolve than to abandon resolution.

Maybe that’s how we do it in E&C, but I’m not a regular here. I thought we could resolve each difference before moving to the next. Ok, time-out.


edit: removed double paste

[Lothar]

I'm not going to accidentally injure or kill someone with the thing.

Sounds to me like you fear your own inability to properly secure and control a firearm, and you fear other peoples' potential inabilities. Proper training will help both of those.

(By the standard you judge, you will be judged.)

[woodchip]

Notice how you keep trolling the fear bit? Becoming a mantra for you.

excuse me for pointing out the obvious.

Your "obvious" is in your mind only

While the police may have been there for you, shall I start listing all the occurrences that they were not? You really have to stop equating your experiences with what reality is. Not very healthy.

feel free to detail examples directly from your life. Detailing news items from around the nation is, once again, fear talking.

see how "slick" you try to be? I was equating to the whole population and since you can't argue that you try to shift it to my personal experiences. When are you going to stop these foolish misdirections. We can all see thru them.

I've already posted on this forum how I held a guy at gun point for trying to hide on my property. Want to try a different tack?

[callmeslick]

I'm not going to accidentally injure or kill someone with the thing.

Sounds to me like you fear your own inability to properly secure and control a firearm, and you fear other peoples' potential inabilities. Proper training will help both of those.

(By the standard you judge, you will be judged.)

I own two(shotguns), store them properly, am trained in their operation and can control them adequately. That has come up in prior discussions.

[callmeslick]

Ok, time-out. Help me out here slick, please.

Topic jumping means we can’t settle any one issue.

agreed, hence my comment that 'I suppose' we could move to the gang issue.

In my mind, the intital responses to the first topic led me to ask the question of WHY you feel the need to carry. Both you and Woody responded,
and neither of you really produced a solid reason beyond 'because I can'. And, if that is the only justification, it might be time for the nation to revisit a lot of law around carry permitting, and far more strictly restrict it.

[callmeslick]

see how "slick" you try to be? I was equating to the whole population and since you can't argue that you try to shift it to my personal experiences. When are you going to stop these foolish misdirections. We can all see thru them.

I've already posted on this forum how I held a guy at gun point for trying to hide on my property. Want to try a different tack?

I am not asking why you own a gun. You did address that before as noted, and I'm not senile yet. However, this time I asked why you feel the need to carry in public. Once again, I requested personal reasoning, past the 'look at the news' because I already demonstrated that approach to yield far more evidence as to why guns should be absolutely banned, if anything, than evidence to support carry. Thus far, I've gotten: 1) because I can and 2) because it makes me happy walking in the dark. Both are ridiculously short of viable reasons to carry a deadly weapon in a public place. Sorry, but they are.

[Lothar]

I'm not going to accidentally injure or kill someone with the thing.

Sounds to me like you fear your own inability to properly secure and control a firearm, and you fear other peoples' potential inabilities. Proper training will help both of those.

(By the standard you judge, you will be judged.)

I own two(shotguns)

Interesting, but not as relevant as you seem to think. Shotguns and handguns are fairly different in how to secure and control them. And in particular, this thread is about carrying, which most people don't do with shotguns.

I do find it interesting that you're the one who's spent the most time talking about fear in this thread, and I think your own responses show more fear than anyone else's thus far. You're not afraid of guns per se, but you are afraid of people who carry. And you keep trying to rephrase other peoples' positions in terms of fear, when that's not the primary emotion in what they're saying.

[Isaac]

Ok, time-out. Help me out here slick, please.

Topic jumping means we can’t settle any one issue.

agreed, hence my comment that 'I suppose' we could move to the gang issue.

In my mind, the intital responses to the first topic led me to ask the question of WHY you feel the need to carry. Both you and Woody responded,
and neither of you really produced a solid reason beyond 'because I can'. And, if that is the only justification, it might be time for the nation to revisit a lot of law around carry permitting, and far more strictly restrict it.

When the subject of preparedness was mentioned that sounded like “because I can”? We don't carry a flashlight simply "just because we can". We carry them because it would be bad to need it and not have it.

I got a light on my keychain. I got a light in my car. I got a big light at work. I'm not afraid fo the dark. I just need a way to deal with it if I need to.

edit: I might be banned in a few minutes because of some "quality" moderating in a different forum section. So if I stop replying, that's why.

[callmeslick]

Interesting, but not as relevant as you seem to think. Shotguns and handguns are fairly different in how to secure and control them. And in particular, this thread is about carrying, which most people don't do with shotguns.

I see some similarities around personal responsibility. Also, I find I almost always have to carry my shotgun.....to the marsh.

I do find it interesting that you're the one who's spent the most time talking about fear in this thread, and I think your own responses show more fear than anyone else's thus far. You're not afraid of guns per se, but you are afraid of people who carry. And you keep trying to rephrase other peoples' positions in terms of fear, when that's not the primary emotion in what they're saying.

no, it isn't fear, but I think my question is valid. Why does someone need to carry if not in law enforcement or private security? The more guns extant in public, the greater the chance for greivous error and spurious violence. This isn't some sort of abstract fear. I spent two weeks on her pointing out examples on a daily basis from around the nation. So, I asked WHY the need. All I got was stuff around, 'it makes me feel good'. That is not good enough. The rest of the world gets by just fine without giving in to such a shallow, selfish wish. Why should we? Some talk of our 'gun culture'. Hell, I played with toy guns, and later learned how to use hunting guns. And, as noted, NEVER felt the need to carry a weapon. At one time in my life, my choice to do so was considered by my 'superiors' to be a suicidal choice, but I kept coming back alive. The need for personal weapons, especially the need for public carry permits is, to my mind, been VASTLY oversold to a gullible, fearful audience. The consequences, nationwide, have been tragic.

[Lothar]

I asked WHY the need. All I got was stuff around, 'it makes me feel good'.

Literally the post directly above yours gives a better reason than "it makes me feel good", centered around the concept of preparedness.

The more guns extant in public, the greater the chance for greivous error and spurious violence... The consequences, nationwide, have been tragic.

It's not as though guns magically cause grievous error and spurious violence. They exist as tools, and can be used either to cause or to end violence. For every anecdote you can supply about people doing bad things with guns, I can supply one about a senior citizen thwarting an armed robbery/home invasion or a woman scaring off a rapist.

It's not as one-sided as either you or the NRA tell it. There are some tragic consequences because of the presence of firearms, and there are tragedies averted because of the presence of firearms, or even because of the potential presence of firearms. There are reasons some percentage of the population should carry, and reasons why some types of restrictions should be tightened in order to keep less stable members of the population from carrying.

[callmeslick]

Lothar, I've said all along that I am for common sense on this subject. I am also big on the concept that with rights come responsibilities. Just because you have the Right to Bear Arms doesn't mean you have to, or should do so everywhere. That is simple common sense. Hell, if you'd showed up in a restaurant or bar in Tombstone or Dodge City with a weapon in the 'Wild West' era, you would have been arrested. They had gun laws, for good reason. I am posing the question around need/reasons for carry to understand what really would be common sense. What I've heard from proponents here is anything but a strong argument for expanded carry permitting. I have no problem with responsible, mentally stable citizens owning weapons,within their homes or afield for hunting or sporting purposes. I am nowhere near as sold on the concept of either open or concealed carry, as little good can be shown to come of it, and when all the anecdotal evidence of positive events is weighted against the negative outcomes, the debate is moot on the carry side. This discourse did nothing to alter that opinion, nor provide counter-arguments of substance, thus far.

[Lothar]

I've said all along that I am for common sense on this subject.

Everyone is for "common sense", we just never can agree on what that means.

I am posing the question around need/reasons for carry to understand what really would be common sense. What I've heard from proponents here is anything but a strong argument for expanded carry permitting.

What you claim to have heard ("because I can") and what they've actually said ("preparedness") don't seem to match. I contend that you're being far more dismissive than is reasonable.

I am nowhere near as sold on the concept of either open or concealed carry, as little good can be shown to come of it, and when all the anecdotal evidence of positive events is weighted against the negative outcomes, the debate is moot on the carry side

The thing about anecdotal evidence is, it's really hard to weight. If you read pro-gun forums it's obvious that guns prevent violence. If you read anti-gun forums it's obvious that guns are an unmitigated tragedy. A statement that one side's anecdotes outweigh the other side's is simply a statement of agreement -- it's not that either side actually has more or better anecdotes, you just like one set better than the other.

Personally, I would rather live in a world where firearms are widespread among the populace but there are also heavy legal consequences for misuse than either a world where firearms are widespread with no consequences, or where firearms are only in the hands of law enforcement.

[Tunnelcat]

Sometimes I’m happy I’ve got the gun on me, like when my car stranded me at night and I had to walk to a gas station in the dark (clutch line broke open). .

why on Earth would that make you happy? Or, to address the converse, why should someone be unhappy to walk to the gas station in the dark without a piece? Personally, I'd prefer to have a small led flashlight, which I do have.........

Me personally? Alone in a dark lonely place being female? I'd rather have the gun first, the flashlight second. The flashlight better be one of those big Maglites with some heft as backup.

[vision]

I'd rather have the gun first, the flashlight second.

Just tape the flashlight to the gun so you can see what you are shooting.

[Top Gun]

Nah, they didn't have duct tape on Mars, so you couldn't use both at once.

[callmeslick]

not really wishiing to rehash past debates, but I think we pretty much covered(in the past) the whole issue about effectiveness of response to surprise attacks(in the dark or otherwise) of a violent nature. All the gun does is give the attacking party more excuse to kill you and then take the gun off your body for resale. Not so the flashlight, TC. As a woman, alone in a dark area, a whistle or maybe spray mace around the neck might be some comfort.

[callmeslick]

now, let's look at some numbers.....and not immediately jump on the group who did the analysis.
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

[Lothar]

now, let's look at some numbers.....and not immediately jump on the group who did the analysis.
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

I note that the linked report only includes incidents resulting in death, and not for example incidents resulting in scaring someone off, or even wounding someone and then saving their life. How is that a fair comparison?

Odd criteria for counting often provide more noise than signal when it comes to gun statistics (see, for example, John R. Lott's article on page 18 of http://www.acjs.org/uploads/file/ACJS_T ... h_2015.pdf .)

[Spidey]

I’m getting sick of this subject simply because I can’t get an honest…hell any answer to an issue I have raised twice in the past.