Another Gun free Zone

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:49 am

vision wrote:Seems like you are letting it get to you.

Just give teenagers the same amount of gun training as drivers education and let them get a gun permit with their driver's license. If you are responsible enough to drive deadly vehicle that kills thousands every year you might as well have a gun too. Problem solved.

Lets also give them finance classes and then give them a credit card with unlimited credit.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:03 am

woodchip wrote:
callmeslick wrote: The press from your team is only for less 'gun free zones' with no restrictions, training, or commonsense regulation or background checks with transfers.
Do you even have the slightest clue as to what it takes to get a conceal carry license?

do you know how little is required in some states for OPEN carry?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:28 am

Slick do you know how confused you sound? I asked you a simple question and you reply with something totally irrelevant.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:34 am

no, Woody, it isn't me who is confused. You seem to wish(along with others) to restrict my observations to concealed carry, but I clearly have stated that I have BIG problems with OPEN carry.

vision · Post by **vision** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:36 am

woodchip wrote:Lets also give them finance classes and then give them a credit card with unlimited credit.

Sure, why not? Teenagers are just as responsible as adults when it comes to credit.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:06 am

callmeslick wrote:no, Woody, it isn't me who is confused. You seem to wish(along with others) to restrict my observations to concealed carry, but I clearly have stated that I have BIG problems with OPEN carry.

Still deflecting. No sense pursuing this further. No one was asking you to restrict your observation. If you can't answer just say so.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:38 am

I think the observations/opinions which I gave regarding the fact that I feel expansion of public carry to be ludicrous and dangerous sum up my answer.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:58 am

although even I find it draconian, I'll take Japan's approach, which has near-absolutely eliminated gun violence, over some of the suggestions here:

“To get a gun in Japan, first, you have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you'll file with the police,” wrote Max Fisher in The Atlantic in 2012. “Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don't forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.”

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:26 pm

Which is why the yakuza (mafia) are the only ones in Japan with handguns and can exert such absurd power and influence over the government and everything else.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:30 pm

now, I present for your perusal, the example of a (presumably) well-trained law enforcement professonal who managed to plug a 4 year old girl, when he was reacting to a dog charging him:
http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/201 ... ficer.html

lessee: Training, check
Not a Criminal, check
reacting to an unforseen event, check
in broad, freaking, daylight? check

And, some of you wish to convince me that turning loose the citizenry armed with handguns is going to give us more positive outcomes than negative ones? And, some even dare suggest that I'm somehow deluded or making bogus assumptions to suggest that your path is a recipe for wholesale bloodshed? How does THIS fit your scenario of 'I need a gun, so I'm prepared to deal with unforseen dangers', because it sure seems to me that if this fellow failed miserably(and thankfully no life lost) to respond to a charging dog in the daylight, most of you are toast in that good old 'walking in the dark' scenario.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:31 pm

Krom wrote:Which is why the yakuza (mafia) are the only ones in Japan with handguns and can exert such absurd power and influence over the government and everything else.

I'd prefer mafia influence over the government over the clowns we have influencing ours now, frankly.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:36 pm

callmeslick wrote:
Krom wrote:Which is why the yakuza (mafia) are the only ones in Japan with handguns and can exert such absurd power and influence over the government and everything else.
I'd prefer mafia influence over the government over the clowns we have influencing ours now, frankly.

WHY

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:28 pm

Yeah... that is going against everything this nation was founded on. Like completely.

Japan is practically run by the Yakuza. Like, if you look at their popular culture, tv shows, movies, anime, manga, etc. The portrayals of the Yakuza are overwhelmingly positive for one simple reason: People who do stories which portray the Yakuza as they really are have been known to be visited by the real Yakuza and found themselves descending from tall buildings without having to use stairs or elevators. Literally, you portray them poorly in some story and they will come and murder you and they will get away with it because they own the government! (They even collect life insurance on their victims.) Saying you would prefer that kind of influence over the absurdly low risk of getting shot accidentally or even deliberately in America is madness.

That scenario is exactly what the second amendment was put in place to guard against. The second amendment follows immediately after the first for a reason: "Freedom of speech...or else.". At the end of the day, one of the biggest things that holds our society together as a representative republic is the threat of violence against those who would try to take it away.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:43 pm

Here's what I imagine what would happen if the mafia had control of (or became) the government.

In one month, it would become a totalitarian dictatorship, and the military would become their new enforcers. If someone speaks out against them (the new government) they would find themselves in one of three situations: imprisoned, as slaves, or dead. If they didn't pay their taxes on the day they're told to, they'd wind up dead. Elections? Nope. That would also be one thing to disappear as soon as the mafia got that much power. There would be no more police force aswell. Fire departments? Only if it protects the mafias' interests.

Everyone would end up working for the mafia in one way or another.

And even if some soldiers were to go against the mafia, the bloodshed of that inter-military war would be staggering.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:48 am

callmeslick wrote:now, I present for your perusal, the example of a (presumably) well-trained law enforcement professonal who managed to plug a 4 year old girl, when he was reacting to a dog charging him:
http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/201 ... ficer.html

lessee: Training, check
Not a Criminal, check
reacting to an unforseen event, check
in broad, freaking, daylight? check

So you are saying we should disarm the police. I see how well that worked in England

callmeslick wrote:And, some of you wish to convince me that turning loose the citizenry armed with handguns is going to give us more positive outcomes than negative ones?

The citizenry is already loose. Well over 11 million have conceal carry licenses. Of these how many have been in the news? Fact is the license holders as a group are safer with their firearms than police.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 9352,d.aWw

And to counter your cop story:

Woman frightens off knife-wielding robber, The Portland Press-Herald, Portland, Maine 06/08/15
https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015061 ... ine-060815

Armed cabbie fights off pair of knife-wielding robbers, Florida Today, Brevard County, Fla. May 30, 2015
https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015060 ... ay-30-2015

There, two stories to your one. Would you like more?

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:04 am

Ferno wrote:
callmeslick wrote:
Krom wrote:Which is why the yakuza (mafia) are the only ones in Japan with handguns and can exert such absurd power and influence over the government and everything else.
I'd prefer mafia influence over the government over the clowns we have influencing ours now, frankly.
WHY

while said partly in jest, at least the Mob lets you know where they're coming from and what they plan to do, up front.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:06 am

woodchip wrote:
callmeslick wrote:now, I present for your perusal, the example of a (presumably) well-trained law enforcement professonal who managed to plug a 4 year old girl, when he was reacting to a dog charging him:
http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/201 ... ficer.html

lessee: Training, check
Not a Criminal, check
reacting to an unforseen event, check
in broad, freaking, daylight? check
So you are saying we should disarm the police. I see how well that worked in England

well, it does result in a lower rate of gun violence, but that wasn't my point. My point is that if a trained professional cannot react better than this to an unforseen event, your claim that Joe Citizen can do a heroic job is questionable, at best.

The citizenry is already loose. Well over 11 million have conceal carry licenses. Of these how many have been in the news? Fact is the license holders as a group are safer with their firearms than police.

we've presented the statistics before, despite what your one rosy scenario suggests. At any rate, what about the above argues for more guns? What you are suggesting is an expansion of the pool of licensed owners to folks who would likely be less trained, and since the motivation is fear of public shootings, might tend to be even jumpier than the current batch of holders.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:45 am

I guess, Woody, that the bottom line for me is really that I don't wish to live my life in an armed camp and the idea that the number of CC holders tripling over the course of the past 6 years is not, in any way, comforting. I guess I'm just going to get in line with Justice Stephens' suggestion of a minor change to the 2nd Amendment.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... 4870820548

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:30 am

The problems with that change might be worse than leaving it alone.

One thing is people would be prone to start these militias, in order to be compliant with the law. (yea, I’m sure a lot more gun owning organized gangs…errr militias would be a good thing)

Also, I hate to think of what could happen when states decide to ignore federal law, and keep gun ownership legal.

The federal government would also now be compelled to enforce the law, and that would mean mass confiscation. (of course that’s what a national database is for)

Well good luck with that dumb idea.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:32 am

The guy says that the ongoing events add emotional charge to the discussion, then later in the article refers to gun violence in America as "slaughter". Pretending to be neutral and unbiased, but then trying to exploit the emotions of others to push his goals. There is no "slaughter", America is an exceptionally safe place to live, especially compared to the undeveloped world. The things most likely to kill you in America are heart disease and vehicular accidents, violence (all types) is way down the list.

You need to look at the bigger picture. Everyone focuses on the individuals who carry guns, but the individual isn't that important. What is important is that society has the right to posses guns and that gives society power instead of concentrating it in the hands of the few. Taking guns away from individuals can make individuals safer, but taking guns away from society is exceptionally dangerous for all members within it.

The people pushing for ever increasing gun controls in the name of safety just don't want to take responsibility for the society they contribute to.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:40 am

Yea, having a laser focus on the guns definitely causes you to miss the bigger picture.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:14 am

Spidey wrote:Yea, having a laser focus on the guns definitely causes you to miss the bigger picture.

if you mean by that a singular, narrow focus, I'd agree. But, to pretend that our easy gun availability isn't a component is equally myopic.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:26 am

Probably

vision · Post by **vision** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:30 pm

I'm telling you, just give everyone a gun. Imagine how peaceful the country will be. No one will even say mean things to each other because you'll never know who has a gun and a short temper. Imagine pulling a gun on someone and having 20 people point theirs at you. It will be just like the Long Peace we are experience right now in global politics.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:43 pm

or...

vision · Post by **vision** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:55 pm

Reminds me of one of my favorite stand-up bits.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:07 am

common sense, that's all that's required.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... d/2780303/

just as reckless:
http://www.al.com/news/tuscaloosa/index ... ma_bi.html

note to self: purchase stock in casket and creamation companies.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:12 pm

callmeslick wrote:
Spidey wrote:Yea, having a laser focus on the guns definitely causes you to miss the bigger picture.
if you mean by that a singular, narrow focus, I'd agree. But, to pretend that our easy gun availability isn't a component is equally myopic.

I guess Scott Walker is REALLY myopic then. Let the killing begin.

http://news.yahoo.com/gov-walker-end-de ... itics.html

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:14 pm

given the timing, he is worse than myopic.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:10 pm

here's another study to pick apart:
http://www.thetrace.org/2015/06/new-stu ... ent-crime/

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:23 pm

The only way to prevent a firearm-related crime is to know the bad guy is coming.

And last I checked, the bad guys tend not to announce their arrival, much less ask "do you have a gun? because if not, i'm going to rob you now."

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:25 pm

and, to know when the 'good guys' are about to go over the edge.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:29 pm

"hey if you buy this gun, are you going to go crazy later on?"

"yeah i'm going to have a psychotic break in about four months, climb a clocktower and shoot random people"

"alright, that seems fair. here's your gun"

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:23 pm

Screw the study, that picture at the top tells the entire story.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:31 pm

.....and, saves all that messy reading and stuff.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:59 pm

Yea…I’m just sure that article is chock full of things I haven’t heard before.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:32 pm

well, since it was a newly released study, yes it would. However, choosing to read the top banner and dismissing the article without question is the sort of lack of intellectual integrity I hinted at in another thread, demonstrated for all to see. You see, it's one thing to read it, check facts, question conclusions and pose counterpoints. Not reading it is closemindedness, but it is just so comfortable to avoid challenging your beliefs, huh?

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:56 pm

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:28 pm

callmeslick wrote:given the timing, he is worse than myopic.

Yeah, lets have everyone be as knee jerk responsive as you are.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:41 pm

callmeslick wrote:here's another study to pick apart:
http://www.thetrace.org/2015/06/new-stu ... ent-crime/

Wow, another Bloomberg backed blog that I'm sure is feeding us correct info.

Here lets throw this one in the mix:
http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.or ... countries/