Nice quote

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:07 am

I came across a nice quote in the local press..

In terms of politics and foreign policy, the US always does what's right. Of course, after having tried everything else first.

Sums it all up pretty well, in my humble opinion..

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:08 am

Next!

T-Bone · Post by **T-Bone** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:22 am

So, is your local press trying to pass off old Churchill quotes as their own or did they give him proper credit?

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:53 am

Bit daft to slag off the Yanks with a WW2 Churchill quote Tri, i mean you'd be speaking German now if it wasn't for theirs and others efforts.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:41 am

Hey, if it's a Churchill quote, the guy didn't say so in his text.

At any rate, Churchill was a true prophet

This quote still suits the US very well.
Btw, thanks for reminding me why not to visit this forum.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:52 am

And people wonder why we don't care what the Belgians, French, and Germans think of us... heh

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:53 am

Heh, we are going to be labled idiots no matter what we do.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:07 am

Et tu, Tom?

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:17 am

Churchill was a smart guy.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:38 am

Churchill was quite the man. Another good Churchill quote / story, my favorite:

Churchill had to go to a fancy dinner party (or something like that) one day. He shows up at the party, a little late, and fantastically drunk.

A woman goes up to him, appalled by his behavior, and says, "You sir, are drunk!"

To which Churchill replied, "And you madam, are ugly. But tommorrow, I shall be sober - and you will remain ugly."

[slightly verbatim]

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:39 am

well, when you say stuff like

This quote still suits the US very well.

what do you expect me to say? "Yeah, you're right, we're a nation full of idiots, and I wish we could do things right the first time like France always does"? HEH.

The more I hear Europeans insulting the US, the less seriously I take their opinions. 3 or 4 years ago, if you said "France and Germany are both against this policy" I'd have sat down and talked it over -- but the more I hear the opinions (read: flames) coming from that part of the world, the less seriously I can take them.

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:43 am

And you, sir, need to get it into your head that not everyone from Europe is automatically French, or are with the poodles in anything and everything

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:49 am

which is, of course, why I've referenced Germany and Belgium both in this thread.

I think you can tell from the context of my comments which countries and individuals I'm referring to. I'm not going to bother trying to list off Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, etc. etc. etc. every time I want to talk about those whose opinions I now take less seriously. Nor am I going to bother trying to explain that it's really mostly just the more outspoken from those countries that I've begun to ignore, and that there are still people from those countries I respect. It's simply too much work -- I'll say "Europeans", and it's up to you to interpret it properly to mean "the whiny people from

who fit the description I gave", rather than me having to write that out every time.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:55 am

Tom, I guess you show your true nature now.

I have not insulted anyone, I just quoted something for it's relevance, according to my humble opinion. That hardly qualifies as a flame. If it does, tell me and I leave on the spot and you will never see me again, because I don't want to risk flaming this elite company inadvertly again.

Furthermore, you say you can only take so much bull★■◆● from "us" europeans. Do you have any idea how much bull★■◆● we take from you americans? Do you think european things are featured in the US press as much as US things are featured in the EU press? I hardly think so. It's been Afghanistan this, Iraq that, cockup here, cockup there. What do you think it looks like from here? A freaking vaudeville!

I have hardly voiced my opinion as much as you have voiced yours. I have read your posts, and bearing in mind you are a reasonable person, I always figured there would be things that lead you to think and act the way you do, which are beyond my field of view. Therefore, I respected your opinion, even though I did not share it. Do you think I still do after you wrote something like this?

I am as much entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. Even though we may disagree, it doesn't give you the right not to take me seriously. Either you do take me seriously, or else you do not get involved at all. Then no harm done.

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:09 pm

Belgium doing things right the first time:

[a] poll shows that more than ever, Belgians support sending out troops to intervene in cases of massive violations of human rights. Forty-two percent of the respondents criticised Belgium's decision to pull out of Rwanda in the early days of the genocide - a decision that consequently paralysed the UN operation

[snip]

Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt went to Kigali himself to deliver a public apology to the Rwandans for having abandoned them.

Link

The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, created by the United Nations to prosecute perpetrators, estimates that "some 800,000 Rwandans were killed" between April and July 1994. Link

Rwanda was a Belgian colony until granted independence in 1962.

The Belgians were the strongest, best-equipped single component of the 2,500-member U.N. Assistance Mission for Rwanda (UNAMIR), the peacekeeping force. Belgium was indisputably leader of the contingent, which also included soldiers from Bangladesh and Ghana.

When the killing began, Belgian Prime Minister Jean-Luc Dehaene, his foreign minister and the Belgian parliament called for the immediate return of all Belgian troops. The Belgian leaders also urged that the other UNAMIR peacekeepers leave Rwanda. That withdrawal opened the door to the murder binge.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:16 pm

Quoting myself from here.

Tricord wrote:Sure, you can Google for "Belgium + <incriminating fact>" and come up with articles to throw in my face (it's happened before), but I feel it still doesn't allow you to write like you know everything which is local to me, and try to prove me wrong.

There was much more to the Rwanda conflict than you lead everyone to believe. Would you be happy if I said you just kill Iraqis for oil?

You guys are so predictable, I don't know why I didn't see it coming...

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:36 pm

I have not insulted anyone, I just quoted something for it's relevance, according to my humble opinion. That hardly qualifies as a flame.

You came to a board populated mostly by Americans and posted a quote that's quite unfair to our nation and our people -- how did you expect it to be taken, if not as a flame? It is an opinion, and you are entitled to it, but it's not kind, respectful, humble, relevant, or accurate.

you say you can only take so much **** from "us" europeans. Do you have any idea how much **** we take from you americans?

How many times have you seen me, personally, come on here and talk s*** about Belgians or the Belgian government (not counting the time I spent trolling deFayk)? I'm not complaining about the stuff that goes out over the airwaves. I'm complaing about the stuff you and others from your part of the world have said directly to me, personally, about my country or about the president I voted for. You might take a lot of s*** from Americans on your TV -- but how much do you take from me personally? When's the last time I came on and started a thread for the sole purpose of expressing my dislike for your country?

I've heard so many insults, with so little understanding or willingness to listen, that I simply no longer take it seriously when someone comes on and posts a quote about America being morally or ethically deficient (kind of like how you, no doubt, have stopped taking certain people here seriously when they post about France, Belgium, Germany, etc.) It's become clear to me that there is no interest in cultural understanding, so I no longer humor the possibility.

Tell the truth -- did you come online to post that quote because you were interested in hearing our opinions, or did you post it because you wanted to smirk at America and Americans? Were you interested in cultural understanding, or simply in taking a cheap shot at our country? Be honest with yourself.

I mean... look at what you posted, and then explain to me why I should take this kind of insult seriously:

In terms of politics and foreign policy, the US always does what's right. Of course, after having tried everything else first.

Might I ask you, where were the brave leaders of the rest of the free nations in the world when Ronald Reagan was in Berlin saying "Tear down this wall" or supporting Solidarity in Poland or pushing the Soviet Union to economic collapse?

Tell me, how is it that the US manages to do "everything else" first and then do what's right, and yet, on a regular basis, we still get around to doing what's right before the rest of the world does?

Now, I'm not saying other nations *never* do *anything* right. What I'm saying is, it's silly to insult us for "eventually" doing things right, when we have at least as good a track record as any other nation for leading the world in the right direction. There are some issues where we were behind the curve, so to speak -- but there are plenty where we were ahead of the curve, too. Churchill's quote was funny -- but it's not accurate, and it's insulting to treat it as though it "sums it up pretty well".

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:36 pm

Yes, there was more to Rwanda than that, obviously. But, is what I stated wrong? Your quote implies that unlike the U.S. (which always screws up first), you're country has no such problem. I beg to differ.

P.S. You're pretty predictable yourself.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:58 pm

Lothar wrote:Churchill's quote was funny -- but it's not accurate, and it's insulting to treat it as though it "sums it up pretty well".

That is your opinion and nothing more. Why not let me have mine?

If you want to make this personal. I may be an individual expressing dislike towards the US of A, that does not mean that I disklike you. You may respect the president you vote for, but that doesn't mean you should treat the opinion from someone who doesn't vote for the same president as you, like trash.
Furthermore, you realise that this situation cannot be reversed? Belgium and the US have not interchangeable positions, both in terms of size, exposure, weight in world politics, etc. At this point, not even the whole European Union compares to the US in those terms. So why the hell would you start bashing Belgium? Belgium has no effect on you. The US has effect on me, and much more than we both actually imagine. There's a fricking McDonalds on every streetcorner, we wear american clothes, we watch american TV. We get your crap rammed down our throats on a hourly basis, subcounsciously. My expressing my dislike for your country is a lot more probable than the other way around.

So please, allow me to think aloud about the US, even though you don't like me doing so.

Instead of thinking I was having a cheap shot at your country, reconsider. I say you are having a cheap shot at me. You generalise this statement, you say you've heard us complain so much you can no longer take us seriously. How pretentious does that sound, really? Can't you accept the fact that you can't see things from my standpoint, just like I accept I can't see things from yours. I just happen to see a lot more from the US than you do from Belgium.

And since when was this discussion about Belgium, anyway? Since when do you guys have your heads so much up your asses that a simple thing like a quote, posted explicitly as a backing of a personal opinion, is taken for a fact and then the author raped in all possible ways? What do you think I can do to argue for my own point of view in a place like this, where the majority of the posters are americans with a holy conviction that everything Bush does, is good?
Have you ever tried to imagine in what position I am, as an individual, in a place like this? Your wife had to fight for respect for her gender in this community, it seems that I have to fight for respect for my geographic situation. English is not my native language, either. I am a minority, the underdog, disadvantaged in all aspects.

No wonder I'm fighting a losing battle here. So what do I do? Retreat.
I can only use irony and sarcasm to shield my back from your daggers.

The US is great! God bless America! I love president Bush! He is pro life!

See you guys around, but not in this forum.

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:15 pm

Not surprisingly, Tricord, you've completely missed the context of the Churchill quote. IIRC it obliquely refers to America's slow entry into WWII. We had our own appeasers at the time that were endeavoring all manner of diplomacy to avoid entering the war. Eventually, as Churchill observes, we did the right thing and fought the Nazis.

This quote is a little more accurate on Churchill's feelings:

"To have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. Now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all!...Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder."

But I believe this Churchill quote is more appropriate toward people like you:

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism."

...or perhaps this:

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:30 pm

Things get too personal after you insult my country, so you blame me and retreat, and claim that I'm doing great evil to you by challenging you to back up your statements? *sigh* Whatever...

Tricord wrote:
Lothar wrote:Churchill's quote was funny -- but it's not accurate, and it's insulting to treat it as though it "sums it up pretty well".
That is your opinion and nothing more. Why not let me have mine?

It's my "opinion" that it's not accurate?

no, my friend, it is a *fact* that it's not accurate, because it's a statement of *fact* about the way America operates. I wish you would address this point -- address the fact that the US really *does* often manage to do things right before other nations.

It is my "opinion" that it's insulting, that's true -- but the reason it's insulting is because of the FACT that it's inaccurate and unfair.

the majority of the posters are americans with a holy conviction that everything Bush does, is good

LOL... are we even talking about the same forum?

My expressing my dislike for your country is a lot more probable than the other way around.

It's true that it's more probable. But is it justifiable? Is it fair? Is it reasonable? That's the question at hand.

When you express your dislike for America using your quote, back it up -- explain what evidence you have that America "does the right thing... after trying everything else." When you express that our culture is being "shoved down your throats" back it up -- explain what evidence you have that we're forcing it on you, instead of that your people are just "eating it up". (Nobody is forcing you to go to McDonalds -- McDonalds operates in your city because the people who live there make it profitable for McDonalds to operate. So much for being forcefed...)

There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't like the way you guys do things" -- but at least make sure that what you say is "the way we do things" is accurate. If you say you don't like our policies, that's fine -- as long as what you say our policies *are* is accurate. If you want to complain that you don't like our foreign policy, go for it -- but at least identify the foreign policies you don't like, and why you don't like them, rather than just insulting the US with a clever line about "doing the right thing... eventually" that has no real substance.

So please, allow me to think aloud about the US, even though you don't like me doing so.

You have every right to think aloud about my country -- but please engage what I have to say in response. I've told you what I think of your quote -- I think it's inaccurate and unfair to insult the US for "eventually" doing things right when we do just as well as any other nation in that regard. So respond to that -- explain to me why you think your quote "sums it up well" in spite of that.

Since when do you guys have your heads so much up your asses that a simple thing like a quote, posted explicitly as a backing of a personal opinion, is taken for a fact and then the author raped in all possible ways?

Since when do you think you can post such a quote about the *fact* of the way my nation behaves, label it as personal opinion, and then not back it up? Personal opinions are fine -- but if your opinion is over a matter of fact, such as "the US does the right thing... after exhuasting all other options" (that is a statement of *fact*, not *opinion*) expect to be challenged on the facts you're using to support your opinion.

You say the US "always does what's right... after having tried everything else first." So, I challenge you to explain why you think that "sums it up pretty well."

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:37 pm

Just a theory, Lothar, but I believe we'll be seeing an increase in this sort of sentiment due to the continuing successes in Iraq and Afghanistan. America and it's coalition partners threw the dice and risked alot endeavoring to create two free nations where once existed totalitarian regimes. Many in the world--persons such as Tricord--were wishing us failure. Now, however, shame for their own inaction (and even profiteering at the expense of the Iraqi people) has shifted onto them. It's a natural reaction for these people to recoil into sputtering generalizations in order to hold firmly onto their bigotries, lest their limited worldview come crashing down and they be forced to admit that maybe *GASP* they were wrong.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:46 pm

Tom, I'll try to write a lengthy reply in due time. I will do my best, but will ultimately fail to convince you that the US has not embarked with a good course of action, because your stubborn point of view is so hopelessly anchored in your mind. In fact, because of this, I might even just give up and move on. But I'll try.

Bash, thanks for patronizing me. In third person, none the less! You're too kind.

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:53 pm

That is your opinion and nothing more. Why not let me have mine?

Yeah Lothar, let him have his opinion.

You took a jab at the U.S., fine. I don't know if we're supposed to just nod in agreement or be silent. I doubt you really thought we would ... being we're so predictable and all. I smell a drama queen.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:10 pm

Tricord wrote:In third person, none the less! You're too kind.

Well, you did say you wouldn't be posting here again.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:23 pm

since when were the belgians allowed to have opinions?

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:30 pm

the US has not embarked with a good course of action

Your quote does not say "on occasion the US does not embark with a good course of action" or even "on this occasion the US did not embark with a good course of action." Rather, it says that the US always does the right thing, after first doing all of the wrong things. I don't see how convincing me that the US messed up on some particular occasion would be relevant to the US "always doing the right thing... after exhausting all other possibilities".

What is relevant is the fact that the US, while far from perfect, has in fact been the first nation to do a number of "right things" long before your nation or any other nation got involved. The US has, on occasion, been behind (such as in World War II, which is where your quote comes from) but it's nowhere close to "always" doing the wrong things first and then eventually coming around.

Unless, of course, you're changing your argument from "Churchill's quote sums it up pretty well" to "I didn't mean that at all, I meant something entirely different" :)

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:41 pm

I probably should just stay the hell away from this thread but it's getting hard to resist... anyway, point is... around here, that quote and the comment would be recieved with a chuckle, and maybe a

in the general direction of the USA

Which is, I assume, somewhat like the sensible of you react to jokes about the French, which seem to be the subject of frequent jabs around here for reasons I haven't quite bothered to figure out yet

Point is, Tri posting it was obviously semi-flamebait since he (at least subconciously) knew what sort of response it would generate, BUT at the same time, you rose to the challenge far far too eagerly.

And I'm hardly guiltfree either, I'm sure nobody has forgotten my little similar stunt a month or two back... which looking back, I still find rather funny

- for me, that was mostly venting.

Anyway, what you have to realise is, 40-60% of news coverage here is about the USA - even internal events of various types - and while that is certainly partly the fault of our media, the fact is, war sells, and I guess a bit misdirected anger can result when it floods over the brim.

And somehow, I think the situation is similar over there.

Okay, that was the first and last time you'll see me trying to be the diplomat, and I'm sure I'll get what I deserve for it

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:35 pm

You cannot come into a predominately American BB, type what you typed and pretend to not realize it was a stab at America(ns).
Have you ever *been* to America?
It's funny watching you be 18(?) and tossing about trinkets that you somehow believe represent class and wealth.
Go Tricord!

heh

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:20 pm

There is some misguided assignation of blame that is happening here:

"The US has effect on me, and much more than we both actually imagine. There's a fricking McDonalds on every streetcorner, we wear american clothes, we watch american TV. We get your crap rammed down our throats on a hourly basis, subcounsciously" - Tricord

"Anyway, what you have to realise is, 40-60% of news coverage here is about the USA..." - WoA

Note to foreigners:

We are not responsible for the products you and your countrymen choose to consume or the content of your electronic or print media!

I'm quite sure if the U.S. Marines actually invaded your little part of the world and forced you to consume our 'americanism' you would swallow it without any whining or backtalk because.... well ...because they are F%*&ing hard-dick ass-stomping U.S. Marines and you are whining little biotches and you'd have no choice!!
You'd be screaming "Thank You Sir, may I have another!!"

Since that's not the case please direct your complaints at your own countrymen who apparantly usurped your free will and forced you to be overwhelmed with all things american!

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:30 pm

We are not responsible for the products you and your countrymen choose to consume or the content of your electronic or print media!

If you had skimmed a bit less you'll notice I implied as much, even if I didn't say it out loud. I knew trying to be the diplomat was a bad move

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:21 pm

Tricord, timing is everything. You unfortunately chose to take a jab at us on the day of President Reagans funeral service. Did you stop and think today may not be a appropriate time for such comments?

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:55 pm

WoA, I saw you said 'it's partly your fault...'

I just don't think it's any of our fault what another country wants to watch if there even is any fault at all to be assigned.

My rant is aimed at the general consensus I hear from outsiders looking in who critisize us for the content of our culture that they imported!

You and Tri just happened to be the ones to voice that today and so I responded like a good barbarian should.

Your diplomacy duly noted and all that...

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:20 am

you're anti-american Trichord for believing what you want to believe...you can say what you want only if everyone else here agrees with you...TO THE GALLOWS!

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:22 am

on the other hand, i wouldn't say America waits till the end to do it right...but hey...it's like the big kid on the playground...if he can't play the game...he just beats you up and takes you ball..(hated that kid)

roid · Post by **roid** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:00 am

Will, the foreign content issues are more complex than that.

many media companies on non-american soil are owned (or controlled) by american interests.

do you know how hard it is here to see a locally made movie? all the cinemas are big and american owned (and thus play almost entirely american content).

it's quite annoying, you have to be a culture buff to know where to look to watch anything non-american (and non-british if you're lucky).

it actually is a problem that the rest of the world deals with Will.

it just makes more sense to me if i could go into any big cinema and have a worldwide variety of movies to watch. *sigh* i'm a dreamer.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:16 am

You reap what you sow.

Unless you can show me how we force you to buy it I have to assume you asked for it.
And certainly, at the very least, you shouldn't complain to america for being american. You should complain to your fellow countrymen for supporting the american content.

If americans own your theaters they do it to make money and if no one showed up to watch because they didn't like the american content those theater owners would quickly change the content to your liking.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:10 am

Will, the point is not whether that american influence is good or bad, the point is that it's there. And it's huge. And that many non-americans are affected by it. You guys don't have an influence from abroad that compares to what we have.

Also, if people are fed up with it, they can't just turn it off, can they? It's not just the McDonalds and the movie theatres. Those I have a choice to go to or not. But we don't need the american McDonalds to make ourselves hamburgers, nor a Pizza Hut to eat pizza. The influence I'm talking about goes way beyond materialistic things.

Observe how quickly you guys manage to piss me off, insult me and laugh at me, for a simple unpleasantness I uttered. I then tried to argue my case, but got insulted more. At this point, I have been insulted far more by you guys than I might have insulted you with that quote. That's fine by me, because I'm just a belgian, good-natured, unreligious and un-extremist kid.
Imagine what effect your mentality would have on a radical muslim fundamentalist who is not happy with the american influence in his country.

I'm not approving of terrorism here, far from it. But I'm beginning to see where it comes from.

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:27 am

Oh man.

*Tiptoes out of thread*

I'll watch this one from afar, ok guys?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:59 am

There is not much in the way of personal insults in this thread, perhaps you would care to point them all out for us Tri?