Hermione

[woodchip]

The latest JK Rowlings movie in the Harry Potter series is due out soon. What has gotten a buzz going is that Hermione is played by a black actress. I don't have a problem with that, but I have to wonder how do you explain that Hermione was white in the first 8 movies and now is suddenly black. Magic? Your thoughts:

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/ ... k-hermione

[sigma]

I'm in anticipation of real pleasure. Typically, the most stupid American movies get a cool alternative translation

[callmeslick]

yup, magic.

[Tunnelcat]

Wizard's punishment? I mean, if everyone is throwing such hate fits over this, it sounds like it would be a seriously nasty punishment for a hapless white wizard student who did something really bad at school.

[Vander]

What's your angle? That the PC-Elite have recast a familiar caucasian character in an effort to promote the hated diversity?

It's a play. Are you also annoyed that every other character has also been recast for the stage?

[woodchip]

My angle? Don't have one. I simply asked how to explain how a white character central to the series becomes black. Perhaps you have a angle?

[Top Gun]

Hermione's race was never so much as mentioned in the books, and it doesn't have any impact whatsoever on her character, so who cares?

[Vander]

I'm not a Harry Potter fan so I don't know, but is there a specific racial aspect that is central to the character? If not, how is this different from casting an actress with different colored hair?

My angle: I question why you require explanation for something that really requires no explanation. Why can't this character be black? What does it matter? Does this thwart your Hermione cosplay outfit?

[woodchip]

No, it offends my perception of progressive consistency. while the books may not of mentioned race, all the movies showed her as white. I think portraying her as black smacks too much at trying to promote racial harmony. If that was important then there should of been black actors in the movie versions. As I recall there were none.

[Ferno]

Hermione's race was never so much as mentioned in the books, and it doesn't have any impact whatsoever on her character, so who cares?

only the people focused on skin colour will care.

[Vander]

I think portraying her as black smacks too much at trying to promote racial harmony.

You just rewrote what I had guessed was your angle, which you denied having. Never change, wood.

[Nightshade]

only the people focused on skin colour will care.

Like Ferno and Vision.

Anyway, many characters have been recast by 'other' races. Many originally white or male characters in the Marvel Universe have been recast as black or female lately. (Thor, Captain Marvel, Nick Fury...and so on to name a few.)

Don't care really. It's someone else's intellectual property. They can do whatever they like with it.

[woodchip]

I think portraying her as black smacks too much at trying to promote racial harmony.

You just rewrote what I had guessed was your angle, which you denied having. Never change, wood.

What? That liberals are PC consumed?

[vision]

I'm trying to figure out why a grown man cares about the skin color of a fictional girl. Can someone help me?

[Sergeant Thorne]

I think it may have to do with how we identify with characters, and how changing gender or ethnicity effects this, but certainly also just how much of a difference there is between black people and white people as characters. You guys shouldn't pretend that there isn't something legitimate to all of this. Personally I'm annoyed when someone tries to re-imagine a known character as a different ethnicity. It's not that it isn't still entertaining (black Human Torch was cool) it's just too much of a change for a known character. I don't think that's racist at all. I'd be annoyed if someone tried a Caucasian Storm for X-Men.

[Ferno]

I'd be annoyed if someone tried a Caucasian Storm for X-Men.

Now why would that be? The X-men have always been about delivering the point that it doesn't matter who or what you are, you should be treated as equal.

[Nightshade]

I'd be annoyed if someone tried a Caucasian Storm for X-Men.

Now why would that be? The X-men have always been about delivering the point that it doesn't matter who or what you are, you should be treated as equal.

Oh now wait a minute...

I do see how that would draw howls of ire from the leftists out there- if an originally black character were suddenly portrayed by a white actor in a "reboot."

I could care less- but I can see how the hypocrites on the left that claim to be 'post-racial' would scream bloody murder. Sad but true.

[Vander]

What? That liberals are PC consumed?

Yes? Is that supposed to be a gotcha? Political correctness and diversity is our bag, isn't it? To deny that would be to deny reality. I don't necessarily walk in lock step with the safe space trigger warning set, but I do try to pursue inclusiveness. Sometimes that means I need to change my behavior as an accommodation to others, which is what political correctness is all about.

You say you don't have a problem with the casting, so don't have a problem with the casting! But you can't, because then the evil liberals will have won this battle.

I could care less- but I can see how the hypocrites on the left that claim to be 'post-racial' would scream bloody murder. Sad but true.

Don't get me started. They cast a 6'2" Australian to play Wolverine.

[callmeslick]

No, it offends my perception of progressive consistency.

I for one am amazed and amused that you have a positivie perception of progressive consistency to offend at all.

while the books may not of mentioned race, all the movies showed her as white. I think portraying her as black smacks too much at trying to promote racial harmony. If that was important then there should of been black actors in the movie versions. As I recall there were none.

if you are down to ideological analysis of children's movies, you are indeed rather pathetic and sad.

[Tunnelcat]

The Harry Potter story is not the only time an actor's race has changed and the biggest backlash seems to occur when originally white characters were later played by black actors, although I'm pretty sure the reverse would cause a stink among blacks as well. That's not a liberal or conservative issue either, it's a tribal one. People seem to be the most comfortable within their own tribes, including fictional ones. In the Fantastic Four movie, the character Johnny Storm, originally a white character, was played by black actor Michael B. Jordan. Did people throw a tantrum? Frankly, I can't remember any arguing and weeping from back then (although there probably were on the interwebs) and I thought the movie was fine and the change was fluid.

"Fans often seem to believe that if a character is changed from white to black, they will no longer be able to identify with that superhero."

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... es/283979/

My question to everyone now, is race essential to any fictional character? As long a race isn't the central aspect of that character, why does it matter? Is the space time continuum going to implode because a fictional character might be played by actors of differing races at differing points in time? Who cares, as long as the actor, or writer, is good at his or her job. Personally, I think it's time that we show what our society is really like in the present, a racially diverse mix of people living and working together. We're not the lily white monotonous society we were from the 1950's. Our culture and art should reflect that change now. Time to leave the past in the past.

[Ferno]

Oh now wait a minute...

I do see how that would draw howls of ire from the leftists out there- if an originally black character were suddenly portrayed by a white actor in a "reboot."

I could care less- but I can see how the hypocrites on the left that claim to be 'post-racial' would scream bloody murder. Sad but true.

Nope.

And I'll tell you why. Most people who watch the x-men movie have read the comic books and are familiar with the alternate universes.

So it's been-there-done-that no one really cares.

[woodchip]

So no one would have a problem if a stage play starred all white actors except black actors portraying the slave owners. Wonder what racism accusations would arise over that.

[Ferno]

So no one would have a problem if a stage play starred all white actors except black actors portraying the slave owners. Wonder what racism accusations would arise over that.

we're not talking about that.

[callmeslick]

So no one would have a problem if a stage play starred all white actors except black actors portraying the slave owners. Wonder what racism accusations would arise over that.

saw something akin to that done off-Broadway years ago, in some sort of experimental project. Pays to keep an open mind and active imagination. This stuff really isn't that frightening nor upsetting.

[woodchip]

So no one would have a problem if a stage play starred all white actors except black actors portraying the slave owners. Wonder what racism accusations would arise over that.

we're not talking about that.

We're not? What do you think we are talking about?

[Jeff250]

So no one would have a problem if a stage play starred all white actors except black actors portraying the slave owners. Wonder what racism accusations would arise over that.

I guess that would be the same thing if one were to confuse the Harry Potter movies with historical fact.

[Ferno]

We're not? What do you think we are talking about?

a non-issue about a story where the race of a character isn't mentioned in the book.

[Sergeant Thorne]

My question to everyone now, is race essential to any fictional character? As long a race isn't the central aspect of that character, why does it matter? Is the space time continuum going to implode because a fictional character might be played by actors of differing races at differing points in time? Who cares, as long as the actor, or writer, is good at his or her job. Personally, I think it's time that we show what our society is really like in the present, a racially diverse mix of people living and working together. We're not the lily white monotonous society we were from the 1950's. Our culture and art should reflect that change now. Time to leave the past in the past.

I don't think that's an accurate representation of our society as a whole, TC. Personally I think our society has a real problem with telling everyone that there are no differences when there are--like someone trying to wish a fantasy into reality. I believe that different ethnic groups are equal in that we are all human beings, and we all have the same basic interests (life, family, work, ...), and the same God-given rights. However, anywhere I've been, with remarkably few exceptions, there are pretty major differences owed to cultural backgrounds and locality. That is a reality of humanity in this world that is not going to go away until you lock everyone in the same room and brain-wash them. And personally I believe in recognizing/judging where different cultures are better or worse than others, rather than enshrining "culture" as an untouchable thing you should never speak ill of.

...So I think you could go ahead and do that, and everyone could agree together to ignore how they feel about it, but it is going to create some negative feelings. "See! I don't mind the taste of dirt! I like it!" When someone creates a character, their ethnicity plays a part in how we perceive them. When you change that you change the character, to whatever degree. The whole entertainment industry is built largely on the fact that people develop a certain affection for specific characters: Rambo, Rocky, John McClain, Mr. T, ... The truth is it's not lost on anyone why some characters have been turned black, unless they're too busy saying to themselves, "I do believe in spooks, I do believe in spooks, I do, I do, I do ..." (that's a Wizard of Oz reference, not a slang term for a black person), and if you ask me it's a motive based on a foolish premise.

I'd be annoyed if someone tried a Caucasian Storm for X-Men.

Now why would that be? The X-men have always been about delivering the point that it doesn't matter who or what you are, you should be treated as equal.

That is really stupid, Ferno. My impression of and appreciation for a character must be tied in with the message of the movie as a whole? How remarkably contrived.

[Top Gun]

No, it offends my perception of progressive consistency. while the books may not of mentioned race, all the movies showed her as white. I think portraying her as black smacks too much at trying to promote racial harmony. If that was important then there should of been black actors in the movie versions. As I recall there were none.

ITT different adaptations for completely disparate entertainment media make different casting decisions. Film at 11!

[Jeff250]

I like how Jesus' race was even described in the book but yet he keeps getting portrayed as a white guy.

[callmeslick]

Jeff, you owe me about a third of a cup of chicory coffee, and I hope these screen wiper thingies work.........touche.

[Ferno]

That is really stupid, Ferno. My impression of and appreciation for a character must be tied in with the message of the movie as a whole? How remarkably contrived.

okay. disagree with what all the fans of the series know and what the writers were laying out for everyone. see if I care.

[Tunnelcat]

My question to everyone now, is race essential to any fictional character? As long a race isn't the central aspect of that character, why does it matter? Is the space time continuum going to implode because a fictional character might be played by actors of differing races at differing points in time? Who cares, as long as the actor, or writer, is good at his or her job. Personally, I think it's time that we show what our society is really like in the present, a racially diverse mix of people living and working together. We're not the lily white monotonous society we were from the 1950's. Our culture and art should reflect that change now. Time to leave the past in the past.

I don't think that's an accurate representation of our society as a whole, TC. Personally I think our society has a real problem with telling everyone that there are no differences when there are--like someone trying to wish a fantasy into reality. I believe that different ethnic groups are equal in that we are all human beings, and we all have the same basic interests (life, family, work, ...), and the same God-given rights. However, anywhere I've been, with remarkably few exceptions, there are pretty major differences owed to cultural backgrounds and locality. That is a reality of humanity in this world that is not going to go away until you lock everyone in the same room and brain-wash them. And personally I believe in recognizing/judging where different cultures are better or worse than others, rather than enshrining "culture" as an untouchable thing you should never speak ill of.

...So I think you could go ahead and do that, and everyone could agree together to ignore how they feel about it, but it is going to create some negative feelings. "See! I don't mind the taste of dirt! I like it!" When someone creates a character, their ethnicity plays a part in how we perceive them. When you change that you change the character, to whatever degree. The whole entertainment industry is built largely on the fact that people develop a certain affection for specific characters: Rambo, Rocky, John McClain, Mr. T, ... The truth is it's not lost on anyone why some characters have been turned black, unless they're too busy saying to themselves, "I do believe in spooks, I do believe in spooks, I do, I do, I do ..." (that's a Wizard of Oz reference, not a slang term for a black person), and if you ask me it's a motive based on a foolish premise.

Granted, movies are more of a problem because people visually remember the race of the character, so I tend to agree with you that it would be a little disconcerting to see a movie character change color or race midway through a movie series. For example, if Luke Skywalker suddenly became a black man in the later moves, it would be too disruptive to the way people remembered the character from the original movies.

However, Hermione is now a black actress in a new play, not a movie. The timeline has progressed so far that Hermione is now an adult. Maybe she changed herself with a magic spell, who knows? The author made that decision and that's her right since the characters are her creation. Either the people will pay to see the new play, or avoid it because of the change. We'll see.

But what about books where people have to imagine what the character looks like? Does it matter then? I tend to be color blind to the character's race in books. I'm more interested in the story and the events surrounding the character. If the story concerns something historical that has to do with the particular race of the character, then it's important.

Certainly, I think this country is far too focused on race for it's own good. Jeff250 makes a good point. Jesus was from the Middle East. That means he was probably a darker-skinned Mediterranean appearing person, either an Aramaic or a Levantine Middle Easterner. He most probably spoke mainly Aramaic and Hebrew, judging from where he came from. Either way, he was either darker skinned or had more Jewish looking features. Hitler probably would have had a conniption fit and had Jesus sent to the gas chambers based on the appearance assumptions he had of Jews compared to his perfect ideals of what white Aryans should look like. Go and watch Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ and Jesus is portrayed as a white male who can speak Latin like it's his first language. Go into any church and most of the representations of Jesus show a white male. Talk about creating something to match your own ideals of what you think is proper.

[Spidey]

So Jesus was real…

No…Jesus was not “European” but the skin tone in the region he came from ranges from a cream white to a dark brown, and nobody I know has ever proven Jesus wasn’t light skinned.

Jesus was most likely a Semite, and they run the entire range.

You know, if you are talking about a god, they might just appear as anything under the sun, depending on who is doing the looking. So that entire issue is moot, Jesus is Hispanic in most of the depictions around here, and black in the Haitian church across the street from my shop.

But as to the OP, I would say that most of the problem in my opinion is lack of creativity and pure laziness, when it comes to creating diverse characters, it’s much easier to just do a remake, and then you don’t have to deal with the consequences of doing it wrong. (not specific to the example here)

[Sergeant Thorne]

I won't argue with any of that, TC. I would say I'm the same way with books, though I'm not a Harry Potter fan.

As for Jesus, I was tempted to counter-troll Jeff by making some outlandish remark about the superiority of whiteness, and Jesus being a miraculous exception to the complexion of his peers... but you're both right. I've never been interested in watching Mel Gibson's movie, but I remember when I was very young, learning that all of the illustrations of Jesus in modern-day "Christendom" (un-Biblical, in principle, to begin with) were misrepresentations, first in that they presented Jesus as fair-skinned, blue-eyed Caucasian, and second that they usually present him as a particularly attractive man, both of which are inaccurate. I actually got rid of a children's "Bible" at one point, and one of the reasons was that the illustrations were all done in this way. The truth is that white people--Gentiles--are reconciled to God, where they are reconciled to God, as sort of second choice to God's chosen people--Israel, which doesn't really give Caucasians any room to put on heirs, as it were. Not that they're ultimately second-class citizens or anything, Biblically, but that is the way it came about. Jesus and the rest of the Jews--the chosen people of God were certainly not Caucasian.

[Tunnelcat]

At least you're more open-minded about the heritage of Jesus than most Evangelical Chrisitan Americans.

https://thetatteredrose.wordpress.com/2 ... ly-graham/

[Sergeant Thorne]

You could totally tear down 90+% of Evangelical Christian Americans using just the Bible. What churches believe and practice today is basically modern American "Christian" tradition, descended from European "Christian" tradition, bearing remarkably little resemblance to the "faith once for all delivered to the saints", or the history that the Bible lays out. It's hard to overstate just how ignorant most church-goers are because of this. An awful lot of people seem to go to church just to quiet their consciences, and actually reading/understanding the Bible doesn't help with that. They'd be better off staying home, if they're going to church to be cowards, hypocrites, and liars. (it is cowardly not to face up to the fact that you actually don't meet God's requirements)