Is this socialism's end game?

[Nightshade]

A stark warning to those seeking more socialism:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rving.html


“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

― George Orwell, Animal Farm

[callmeslick]

as I've always said, here and elsewhere, Venezuela never WAS socialist, other than in name. It was just a typical South American strongman/crony state, with a lot of oil wealth at one time.

[Spidey]

Dude….weren’t you told before, only positive examples of socialism are allowed!

[callmeslick]

at least use examples of actual socialism, is all I ask. If, for no other reason, to demonstrate you actually grasp what Socialism consists of in actual practice.

[Spidey]

Seriously......isn't that my line.

[Jeff250]

I think that socialism can mean a lot of different things, so I don't know if there's much use in fighting over the "real" definition. But some consistency is at least required. If when Slick says he likes socialism he's referring to Scandinavian style and when Thunderbunny says he hates socialism he's referring to the Venezuelan style, then you guys obviously aren't really talking to each other.

[callmeslick]

hell, I can give credit for someone holding up the Soviet Union, Cambodia or a few other failed attempts at collective Socialism. Just not Venezuela.

[woodchip]

Yet it is perceived as socialism by the masses...therefore it is socialism.

[callmeslick]

really? That's your working definition? How sad, and utterly meaningless.

[woodchip]

really? That's your working definition? How sad, and utterly meaningless.

Words change meaning as masses of people perceive them. Because a sad few want to use some outdated meaning of socialism doesn't mean the new normal is not taking effect. Ask those Venezuelans if they think they are living in a failed socialist state.

[Sergeant Thorne]

"Socialism" is an economic and governmental reality, not a perception. What is the economic and political reality of Venezuela?

[vision]

What is the economic and political reality of Venezuela?

Just as Slick said:

It was just a typical South American strongman/crony state, with a lot of oil wealth at one time.

[Spidey]

Dictatorships are not incompatible with socialism.

[callmeslick]

Dictatorships are not incompatible with socialism.

no one said they weren't. Dictatorships are compatable, in the sense of bastardization, with ANY political philosophy. Most grow out of democracy allowing them to nurture. What is your point?

[Jeff250]

Again, I don't think anything will come out of an argument about what "really" is socialism. How would you determine that? Look it up in a 100 dictionaries and average together the first definition each one provides for the word?

What's important is just to be mindful of how someone you're talking to is using the word so that you don't sidestep what they're saying. If someone says I like X, then they're generally provided the liberty of defining how they're using the word so long as it isn't absurd. If Slick says that socialism is good referring to the Scandinavian kind and Thunderbunny says, no, socialism is bad referring to the Venezuelan kind, then Thunderbunny isn't really rebutting what Slick is saying, and I don't think the "real" definition of socialism has much to do about it.

[Spidey]

The point is you implied Venezuela was not a socialist country based on the fact that they are just a dictatorship with oil wealth. (or at least it came off that way)

I thought that point would be obvious.

But anyway Venezuela has its primary natural resource nationalized, and many of the social programs that the Nordic countries have including national health care. So in fact…Venezuela has “actual” text book examples of socialism, not just welfare programs.

So I’m pretty sure if the Nordic countries qualify as socialist, then Venezuela has to as well.

[callmeslick]

the thing is, Spidey, they DIDN'T really nationalize it, they merely took it and gave it to cronies of the President. That isn't socialism.

[Tunnelcat]

Gee slick, isn't that also happening here, in our own capitalist country? And some people here think our current capitalist system is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Krom]

The capitalism in America is so crony... it would be funny if it wasn't so oppressive.

[sigma]

The capitalism in America is so crony... it would be funny if it wasn't so oppressive.

Moreover, the social system in America today is Sodom and Gomorrah, corruption of the society under the guise of freedom and democracy. The United States should be flogged with a belt on the ass, like a naughty child to teach them the basics of morality.

[sigma]

I should add that. In Russia everything is more or less okay with the morality of population. And basically necessary to thank the ethnic Russian Slavs, otherwise the country would have long ago turned into a branch of the Saudi Arabia (the number of Russian Slavs is becoming less and less every year, among other things). If directly to speak about the attitude of the state towards his people, even when taking into account the benefits that have survived from the period of socialism in the USSR (free basic education and emergency medical care; by the way, I received a degree in law and economics absolutely free*), but It' s just absolutely f*cking sick frankly. Probably all the same can not be compared with Colombia, but somewhere nearby.

*Perhaps you want to ask me if I have two higher education, why I do not speak English (since the university graduates are usually fairly well versed in English). It's simple. I do not want. I don't want to clutter my head with unnecessary information and save me, Lord, to speak with an English accent. I'm more interested in learning the classical Russian. Not Soviet version, and the true Russian language that was before the 1917 revolution.

[callmeslick]

* I don't want to clutter my head with unnecessary information and save me.

you'd fit right in over here in certain circles.

[sigma]

[woodchip]

sigma, not sure you want to be giving a smiley to slicks statement.

[callmeslick]

shush, Woody.

[Spidey]

the thing is, Spidey, they DIDN'T really nationalize it, they merely took it and gave it to cronies of the President. That isn't socialism.

Well if you can have crony capitalism, then you sure as hell can have crony socialism.

[sigma]

sigma, not sure you want to be giving a smiley to slicks statement.

It's not a reaction, it's just thoughts about what and how he said )