First olympic gold medal for US

[callmeslick]

any person who views the English language as their primary language can see he was saying," if she gets elected, you are stuck with her choices.....UNLESS, MAYBE you gun toting loons out there can do something....I dunno"

there is no excuse for that. There is nothing the least bit vague about the timeline. Even his staunchest supporters are saying, 'well, Trump is inarticulate at times". Well, isn't that what we need, a President making unclear statements, like every day or two. Give us a break, Woody. Anyone can view the video and make their own minds up.

[woodchip]

I see you are still making things up.

[callmeslick]

no need to make a damned thing up, Woody(that should make this easy for you). There is video. The whole English-speaking world can hear the words, the intonation and sequence of the words. It sure as hell wasn't just 'lefties' who were appalled. Even some the folks AT THE SPEECH were clearly shocked. Is that what we need as President, someone who goes for shock value? Already this week, he has started to impugn the election's validity, and now, suggesting supporters take matters into their own hands AFTER they lose the election. Nice. Spin away.

Note, that when I first brought this matter up, I was sort of unsure, and viewed it as mere clumsy speech. Then I watched the video, twice. No doubt can remain what he was inferring. NONE. The idea that he was suggesting impeachment(for what, pray tell?), or a march or some such, simply doesn't wash.

[woodchip]

And I inferred just the opposite. I guess if you hate the guy you will make a inference that suits your agenda. I'm sure I do the same with Hillary Clinton

[callmeslick]

[callmeslick]

[Grendel]

The mindset changes, all physical power now lies w/ the "authorities" and the disconnect betw. people and government becomes gigantic. Over time the government will push for more restrictions on personal freedoms. Germany is further along w/ this: [..]

I understand what you went through, but I have a strong feeling that something like that is highly unlikely to happen here. Like you said, you grew up in a different area. Those who have been born here; both in the US and Canada, know what actual freedom is like -- and will put up a hell of a fight if it comes close to what you experienced. Even without the 2nd.

I am hoping you are correct, it's really concerning to see the same trends I grew up w/ gaining momentum here. Another anecdote -- a friend of mine immigrated to the US in the late 90's, his plan was to move to CA so he started a three week trip trying to figure out where to put up roots. After a week he said to his wife "We need to get out of here, this is just like Germany." He ended up settling down in OR. Fast forward to today and we see the same ★■◆● happening here. Hopefully the upcoming election will fix this (at least we should have an elected governor again...)

Look at the credo all the armed forces take, particularly in the states. The passage of "will defend the united states from enemies both foreign and domestic" would still hold.

What I learned talking to friends in the (or ex-) military/LE certainly is encouraging. OTOH there are rumors floating around that some ceremonies are hold w/ "and domestic" taken out. Disconcerting if true....

Yes, woody brought up the 2A. And got a face full of adolescent hostility.

Not from me, he didn't! You know better than to lump everyone here in one box. And you KNOW that I'm not anti-gun either. Part of the Canadian culture, my culture, is built on guns.

So "Only you could turn an Olympic story into gun masturbation.", "Seriously, stop trying to compensate for your worthless microscopic dick already. No one else is impressed by your big, hard, throbbing metal substitute." and "Jesus ★■◆●ing christ. Trying to turn her achievement into a gun wankfest -- what the actual ★■◆●." was expressing that. Gotcha.

Again -- that's not being anti-gun. That's us calling him out on him trying to tell us that 'if it weren't for the 2nd amendment, she wouldn't have won'. It's a strawman and a house of cards. and you should have been able to spot that. But if your problem is with the word "★■◆●" or "wankfest", that's on YOU, and there's nothing 'adolescent' about it. Don't put word policing on us because you don't like them.

I see it as an attitude issue. "Young lady got it in the 10m airgun competition. Good thing the 2nd amendment was alive and well when she grew up:[..]" elicited aboves quotes. A bit out of proportion, no ?

Honestly my response wasn't nearly as much about guns in particular as it was about woody's constant barrage of bull★■◆● in general. I genuinely wonder why he hasn't received any sort of extended time off here, because he's proven himself time and again incapable of engaging in anything resembling rational debate.

Just like Callmeslick and others. Open three threads, "Clinton is the Devil", "Trump is the Devil", "Islam is the Devil", and dump every derailment and certain new topics there. Would make E&C a lot more rational IMHO.

I'm surprised this thread is still open as derailed it has become.

[callmeslick]

um, I try to keep to rational debate, and resent the inference, frankly Grendel. As for your fears, I am still not sure what you 'see' in modern US(or at least your region of it) that is parallel to your German experience. Or, at least, I don't see where the talk of restricting certain weaponry or especially tightening background checks, falls into that experience or in any way threatens the 2nd Amendment, which was never intended, for instance to have guns toted around in civil society. Period. It just cannot be shown to be the case. As noted, the armed services seem to swear to perform the same function as the citizenry was suggested to do in the 2nd, which makes sense, as they didn't have or wish to have a standing army. We're well over that by about 200 years. It seems to me rather ironic to see you state fears about modern America in 'liberal' areas reminding you of the Germany of your youth, while a lot of folks see in the current 'conservative' movement, and its degeneration into the Trump candidacy(which 'conservatives' seem to be tolerating) as reminding them of the Germany of your parent's youth......

[callmeslick]

The mindset changes, all physical power now lies w/ the "authorities" and the disconnect betw. people and government becomes gigantic. Over time the government will push for more restrictions on personal freedoms. Germany is further along w/ this:

background for late arrivers. This has been the case since the Depression, accelerated by the type of government needed to develop, keep secret and maintain nuclear weapons in the mid 1940s. Frankly, at that point, most unfettered freedoms vanished.

Germany is a republic, no direct democracy, no freedom of speech. If you defend yourself by means of force, be prepared to spend a good chunk of time in court.

what is different of late here. The US has been a republic since the founding of the current Constitution and you ALWAYS ought to spend time in court or at least police stations explaining why you felt the need to use force.

My tax load (17 years ago) was over 80% of my gross income w/ very little return from that. The "reunion tax" that was introduced after east Germany went down was sold as "limited to 5 years". It's still in place. "Fight the system" was popular in the 80's, but it almost completely died off w/o any relevant change. I vividly remember the outcry over machine readable census forms in the late 80's. Fast forward 4 years -- nobody gave a damn.

you can never compare taxes between here and anywhere else, because of so many intangibles. Foremost is the vast difference in public services provided with your tax monies. I always have found it bracing that Europeans don't settle for NOT getting bang for the tax bucks. They will have nationwide strikes and such. Americans can be like sheep around such matters.

Police gets very brutal once crowds become unruly towards authority, but are not too keen to help the average Joe. Media is even more controlled than it is in the US (part of the problem in the previous examples). There is no government-as-a-service mentality, be prepared to run the gauntlet for a day or more if you need any official paper work done. And pay for it as well, on top of your taxes...

first part is interesting and may be part of modern society, sad to say. The second runs counter to the bulk of Europeans I talk to, but only a handful are Germans.

I'm still amazed how far the german population goes along w/ this. I was expecting a revolt during the 90's decade, nothing but a slight elevation in grumpiness happened. IMVHO this is because germans are never exposed to real freedoms and the government is not afraid of their "sheep" -- they can't and won't do anything to endanger the status quo.

that same 'sheep' mindset has manifested as far worse, historically, in German society, so they seem tame to an outsider nowadays.

as I said in the other post, Grendel, I really don't see what you view as modern developments towards the society you describe in Germany. Your complaints seem to be rooted in our entire design of government which we've had since day one, coupled with an admittedly softer and more self-centered modern western world.

[Grendel]

um, I try to keep to rational debate, and resent the inference, frankly Grendel.

And you are doing a much better job in these two posts, appreciate it.

As for your fears, I am still not sure what you 'see' in modern US(or at least your region of it) that is parallel to your German experience.

The trend of a government to disconnect from their constituents. Inevitable as history tells us, but it's unsettling to go through the same basic thing twice.

Or, at least, I don't see where the talk of restricting certain weaponry or especially tightening background checks, falls into that experience or in any way threatens the 2nd Amendment, which was never intended, for instance to have guns toted around in civil society. Period. It just cannot be shown to be the case.

Guns are toted around in every society. Have been since their invention and will be until we figure out how to effectively address mental problems and crime. The only local difference is to what degree a government will allow its citizens access to guns. Further limiting/regulating this access does nothing to address above mentioned problems. So the question then becomes "How do further restrictions help w/ the problem and what is the benefit ?"

It seems to me rather ironic to see you state fears about modern America in 'liberal' areas reminding you of the Germany of your youth, while a lot of folks see in the current 'conservative' movement, and its degeneration into the Trump candidacy(which 'conservatives' seem to be tolerating) as reminding them of the Germany of your parent's youth......

I just didn't mention it since I see less probability of that happening. It certainly is in the back of my mind though.

Germany is a republic, no direct democracy, no freedom of speech. If you defend yourself by means of force, be prepared to spend a good chunk of time in court.

what is different of late here. The US has been a republic since the founding of the current Constitution and you ALWAYS ought to spend time in court or at least police stations explaining why you felt the need to use force.

True. The implication here was "justified", which around here will go only as far as an investigation, not court. There are laws in Germany that you may defend yourself as a last resort, but you will have to prove to a judge that your level of defense was justified.

My tax load (17 years ago) was over 80% [..]

you can never compare taxes between here and anywhere else, because of so many intangibles. Foremost is the vast difference in public services provided with your tax monies. I always have found it bracing that Europeans don't settle for NOT getting bang for the tax bucks. They will have nationwide strikes and such. Americans can be like sheep around such matters.

I probably should have mentioned that the load in the US is a lot lighter (as in "felt taxes"), that was really the only comparison I intended here. I don't remember ever seeing a strike in europe over taxes, that would be encouraging actually.

Here's another anecdote: after a friend of mine came back from a three year stint living in the US in the mid-90's, he filed a petition w/ the parliament, suggesting the addition of a pie-chart to the tax forms that would explain roughly how the taxes are spent (he got the idea from the US forms at the time.) It took two years for an answer to arrive, it basically said "can't be done, too complicated."

as I said in the other post, Grendel, I really don't see what you view as modern developments towards the society you describe in Germany. Your complaints seem to be rooted in our entire design of government which we've had since day one, coupled with an admittedly softer and more self-centered modern western world.

Like I said (or tried to somewhere) it's the increasing disconnect of government from its responsibility -- less and less effort is spend on societal advancement, most goes right back into the government itself. I certainly hope this will fix itself, preferably w/o yet another WW, but I have my doubts.

[callmeslick]

not sure my outlook right now is nearly as bleak, although most of my fears are around the essentially shadow government we've maintained since around 1945 coming back to bite us. That said, I appreciate the response, Grendel.

[Ferno]

Apologies for the late reply; busy for the past few days -- repairing my own and other peoples' vehicles, working, and being shades of sore.

I am hoping you are correct, it's really concerning to see the same trends I grew up w/ gaining momentum here. Another anecdote -- a friend of mine immigrated to the US in the late 90's, his plan was to move to CA so he started a three week trip trying to figure out where to put up roots. After a week he said to his wife "We need to get out of here, this is just like Germany." He ended up settling down in OR. Fast forward to today and we see the same ★■◆● happening here. Hopefully the upcoming election will fix this (at least we should have an elected governor again...)

"fixed" as in fixed outright, full stop? I don't think that's possible. It's more likely we'll see less of it instead. It grew slowly, it'll recede slowly.

What I learned talking to friends in the (or ex-) military/LE certainly is encouraging. OTOH there are rumors floating around that some ceremonies are hold w/ "and domestic" taken out. Disconcerting if true....

Yes, rumours. Never give rumours more weight than necessary.

I see it as an attitude issue. "Young lady got it in the 10m airgun competition. Good thing the 2nd amendment was alive and well when she grew up:[..]" elicited aboves quotes. A bit out of proportion, no ?

That and they have nothing to do with each other. Using the 2nd amendment to equate ownership to air rifles is like saying you need a PhD in physics to walk down the street.

Just like Callmeslick and others. Open three threads, "Clinton is the Devil", "Trump is the Devil", "Islam is the Devil", and dump every derailment and certain new topics there. Would make E&C a lot more rational IMHO.

See my megathread suggestion in another thread.

I'm surprised this thread is still open as derailed it has become.

Well, it's EnC. It's a circus -- run by a person who believes it should be a debate club.