Carrier

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:36 pm

So now Trump has convinced Carrier to keep it's plant in Indianapolis. So first it was FOMOCO and now it is Carrier. Before he is even office Trump has saved more jobs than Obama ever did.. And before you pooh pooh this I suspect the workers at the Carrier plant will be forever grateful to The Trumpster.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:52 pm

the Ford thing was a complete lie, so you're still repeating lies I see. Now, my question on the Carrier deal is what will the wage scale be for the company to stay? No discussion of that.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:54 pm

Yep, no mention of the wage scale or benefits that these workers will make.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:11 pm

We don't know details yet, but if Trump was instrumental in keeping jobs here, credit where due. I know Sanders wanted to put pressure on the company's defense contracts if they shipped jobs away.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:27 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/busin ... .html?_r=0

in return for tax breaks(taxpayer money) from Indiana residents, apparently flush with extra cash, and promises to lower corporate taxes, they are STILL building a Mexican plant, STILL moving half the jobs there, but PROMISE to keep 1000 jobs around. PR at it's finest. And, the shuck and jive continue, and the county the plant is in will still lose nearly 6400 jobs over the coming year by current projections(Business Week article, not linked, for the last part, published prior to final agreement).

This is triumph of what, exactly, Woody?

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:53 pm

What a deal.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:39 pm

[quote="callmeslick" Now, my question on the Carrier deal is what will the wage scale be for the company to stay? No discussion of that.[/quote]

I suspect it will be a lot more than unemployment.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:50 pm

callmeslick wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/busin ... .html?_r=0

in return for tax breaks(taxpayer money) from Indiana residents, apparently flush with extra cash, and promises to lower corporate taxes, they are STILL building a Mexican plant, STILL moving half the jobs there, but PROMISE to keep 1000 jobs around. PR at it's finest. And, the shuck and jive continue, and the county the plant is in will still lose nearly 6400 jobs over the coming year by current projections(Business Week article, not linked, for the last part, published prior to final agreement).

This is triumph of what, exactly, Woody?

Well lets see Mr complainer, first off how much tax revenue would of been lost if they moved out compared to getting tax concessions?
Your link mentions nothing of still moving half the jobs to Mexico and your liberal projections are typical Dem smoke and mirroers. What is sad is Trump is protecting jobs here, a job which the Dems should of been doing.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:54 pm

looking shakier by the moment. From AP:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnb7Kz

now, we're saving 800 jobs, because the other jobs were never going to move, from the HQ building. Oh, still no word about worker concessions or even whether the jobs saved will be the same jobs after this deal gets cut.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:34 am

Still parsing and speculating. Never saw this kind of analysis when Obama shut down the coal mines.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:32 am

coal mines are shutting worldwide because they are no longer economically or environmentally viable. Period. Obama did nothing to create that reality.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:57 am

Stop with the idiocy followed by your "period" qualifier:

However, this may not be the start of a trend as other countries are increasing their coal consumption—Poland, India, Australia, Indonesia—to name a few. And, this is especially the case when China—a country that consumes 50 percent of the world’s coal–is building coal plants.

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/a ... nsumption/

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:38 am

you know who PAYS for the 'Institute of Energy Research' right? Now, see what real world economists are saying.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:06 am

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/ieo/coal.cfm

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:09 pm

thanks for the link, Grendel. Note, the huge caveats in the projections around environmental and transport access which unless something changes will effect that 2040 figure greatly. As projections go, a bit more nuanced and tempered than the Energy Institute link.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:36 pm

Well now, that's why Mike Pence stayed on as governor of Indiana after the election. That's so he could bribe, oops, I mean "incentivize" Carrier with $700,000 of Indiana State taxpayer money just to keep them in-state. I see Trump did absolutely NO negotiating or threatening on his part AT ALL. It was more of a greasing of the skids by governor Pence. So much for those great Trump negotiating skills.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/11/29/ ... r-win.html

That's ALSO on top of the 7 MILLION in tax breaks Indiana gave Carrier as well. How long will all that last, hmmm? When the Indiana taxpayer coffers go dry, then they move to Mexico? Indiana has been PWNED.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/indiana- ... 54605.html

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:17 pm

The best way to keep Carrier and others in the country, without all of this BS…would be to step up to the plate and buy the damn products, at a price that supports good American jobs.

But no…you just keep buying those Samsungs…

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:39 pm

have a Carrier AC in VA house. Not going to attempt to move and see where it was made. A fine unit.

Oh, and to return to the coal thing. Coal output projections are not related to the West VA, Ohio mines ever re-opening. Old school shaft mines for anthracite are too expensive with current commodity pricing. Plus, it seems like they just frack the surrounding areas nowadays for the gas, cheaper, cleaner and more profitable, to some extent. So, no, those mines will not be reopening. Sure, places like China and India and others may vastly expand open pit mining, which requires, as the above report states, vast investment in transportation infrastructure. No one is planning to expand large open pit operations in the eastern US, I would hope. Even if they did, you don't need anywhere near the employees per unit yield.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:21 am

as I just saw it put nicely, Trump would have to do a Carrier deal every week for 30 years straight to save as many jobs as Obama did with the auto bailout, and the latter ended up MAKING money for the public coffers.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:12 am

As I have pointed out many times, the auto bailout started under Bush.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:28 am

not going round on that, but the point remains. Doing victory laps over the Carrier deal looks a bit lame, especially for the taxpayers of Indiana, the 1100 guys still losing jobs, and anyone who doesn't quite beleive that Carrier is really even keeping the bargain for any amount of time.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:09 am

callmeslick wrote:not going round on that, but the point remains. Doing victory laps over the Carrier deal looks a bit lame, especially for the taxpayers of Indiana, the 1100 guys still losing jobs, and anyone who doesn't quite beleive that Carrier is really even keeping the bargain for any amount of time.

You do know slick, even Dem states like New York off tax break incentives for businesses to relocate to their state. Don't hear you complaining how the tax payers are getting screwed there. And stop with the crocodile tears over imagined job losses as you don't have a clue.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 am

let's look at reality again. I see that the production of US fighter jets in India will be proceeding, and then, there is this Business Insider article. This is coming, soon, so we can deal in political bluster or get down to figuring out how to deal with it:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companie ... li=BBnb7Kz

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:22 am

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnbcA1

Hitler had brownshirts. Trump has twitter followers. The reality is identical. This is fascism, pure and simple, playing out before your eyes.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:03 am

You compare state sponsored terrorists with some idiots who are doing something on their own.

And do it with a straight face and in good conscience…disgusting!

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:17 am

Spidey wrote:You compare state sponsored terrorists with some idiots who are doing something on their own.

ummmm, the brown shirts were not state sponsored, and not even state SANCTIONED until their leader got elected. If you cannot see, in these modern times with new methodologies, how taking down and out citizens and marshalling them into a force to intimidate isn't a damned bit different when the recruitment and intimidation are started online, you lack either vision or conscience about what you're seeing.

And do it with a straight face and in good conscience…disgusting!

ah, conscience. Something apparently out the window along with facts, anymore.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:19 am

History does repeat, you know........

I love how Time balanced innuendo and a bit of history into the posing, etc.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:36 am

I like how leftist like slick resort to Hitler comparison. Why didn't you do the same when Obama made Times man of the year. Oh thats right, didn't fit the approved message. Keep your Trump hate-on going, just makes you look like a mindless idiot.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:45 am

didn't make the comparison because Obama's supporters were not emailing, calling or tweeting personal threats to those(and they were numerous) critics that were out there. Trump is a fascist, leading a burgeoning fascist movement that will either destroy the nation or block it from keeping economic pace with the planet through denial of reality.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:44 pm

Ok, you are correct about the state sponsorship, I should have said party organized.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:46 pm

Is Trump himself, Tweeting, NOT the Party at this point?

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:49 pm

Did he organize the hate mail?

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:51 pm

Spidey wrote:Ok, you are correct about the state sponsorship, I should have said party organized.

That Carrier union leader, Chuck Jones, soon found out how dangerous Trump's millions of "followers" are. So I ask you Spidey, what difference does it make whether these people are state-sponsored terrorists or just independent individuals following along with the hate of their leader? They're still trying to destroy the lives of people they don't agree with. On Twitter, it's not Trump himself who has his account shut down, it's the individual victims of his attacks who suffer.

http://americablog.com/2016/12/make-twi ... trump.html

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:57 pm

Spidey wrote:Did he organize the hate mail?

he issued the initial tweet. To what extent his people(I'm thinking the Bannon crowd here) coordinate the initial transfer of responses to the tweet, I don't know. I suspect it is organized. It was more than mail. There are people getting threats and other harrassment via phone, too. I know, not brown shirted unemployed guys torching offending persons' homes or businesses, but the times have changed.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:05 pm

callmeslick wrote:
Spidey wrote:Did he organize the hate mail?
he issued the initial tweet. To what extent his people(I'm thinking the Bannon crowd here) coordinate the initial transfer of responses to the tweet, I don't know. I suspect it is organized. It was more than mail. There are people getting threats and other harrassment via phone, too. I know, not brown shirted unemployed guys torching offending persons' homes or businesses, but the times have changed.

No, what we have now is worse. We now have a giant, uncontrolled, vengeful mob being stirred up by person with the mind of a 4th grader and the temperament of a badger.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:06 pm

The initial tweets contained nothing but honest criticism…

I saw nothing to indicate he was calling for some kind of threats as a result.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:12 pm

Spidey wrote:The initial tweets contained nothing but honest criticism…

I saw nothing to indicate he was calling for some kind of threats as a result.

it is the steps between the tweets(which you call honest criticism, I see it as way past the role of a President elect, and inaccurate) and the mob mentality response that are, frankly, not clear. However, given that Bannon is running the Show, and has a track record of ginning up mobs for a living, I have my clear suspicions. Hitler had Goebbels, after all. You can honestly not buy into my fear or suspicions, but all I'd ask is to stay vigilant. This is where learning from history will help. We cannot stand by without decrying EVERY incident like this, or the targetting of journalists or educators, either.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:13 pm

woodchip wrote:I like how leftist like slick resort to Hitler comparison. Why didn't you do the same when Obama made Times man of the year. Oh thats right, didn't fit the approved message. Keep your Trump hate-on going, just makes you look like a mindless idiot.

[REMOVED - PERSONAL SHOT]

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:25 pm

woodchip wrote:I like how leftist like slick resort to Hitler comparison. Why didn't you do the same when Obama made Times man of the year. Oh thats right, didn't fit the approved message. Keep your Trump hate-on going, just makes you look like a mindless idiot.

Trump's common company for person of the year. I wouldn't brag.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/p ... 86,00.html

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:26 pm

callmeslick wrote:Hitler had brownshirts. Trump has twitter followers. The reality is identical. This is fascism, pure and simple, playing out before your eyes

What do you expect, history has a tendency to repeat itself. In the future this particular version of Fascism will probably be called "Trumpism" (FYI, Germany had Nazism.) As for twitter followers, not as reliable as a paramilitary organization (watch this space!) /sarc