On Hating Your Allies

[woodchip]

Once again Obama shows that being a friend in the Middle East to the US means less than being a enemy. When the student uprising in Iran occured Obama passively sat back and said nothing, letting what could of been a game changer in Iranian politics. When the Egyptian revolt started Obama was quick to chime in and insist Mubarak had to step down. When Libya's Qaddafi ask for help with his revolution, Obama sent Hillary who famously said, "We came, we saw we killed" after the death of Qaddafi. Then there is the infamous red line in Syria and we all saw what came of that.

Now we have the dying gasp of a truly incompetent President. Obama couldn't resist one last dig before leaving office as he had the US vote against Israels settlement program through a UN resolution. And you wonder why the Middle East is so screwed up today.

[callmeslick]

unless they cease the settlements, they deserve to be an international pariah. Period.

[callmeslick]

may just have had SOME effect, not that I don't have faith the the Trump team will screw it up:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/isr ... li=BBnb7Kz


maybe someday, Woody, you will learn that leadership requres LEADING folks who may not wish to be led in the right direction for the good of EVERYONE involved. Worked that way in management, in my experience.

[woodchip]

unless they cease the settlements, they deserve to be an international pariah. Period.

And who are you or anyone to tell a sovereign country how they use their land?

[callmeslick]

unless they cease the settlements, they deserve to be an international pariah. Period.

And who are you or anyone to tell a sovereign country how they use their land?

well, now we're on to something. If, indeed, that is THEIR land, those dirty little Arabs on it are their CITIZENS and should be given full voting rights, now.
All of them. That is the One-State Solution to the issues, and I've supported that for three decades.

[woodchip]

unless they cease the settlements, they deserve to be an international pariah. Period.

And who are you or anyone to tell a sovereign country how they use their land?

well, now we're on to something. If, indeed, that is THEIR land, those dirty little Arabs on it are their CITIZENS and should be given full voting rights, now.
All of them. That is the One-State Solution to the issues, and I've supported that for three decades.

And I bet you are with the crowd that thought "The only good redskin is a dead redskin". Where and how did we get our land here in America. Was the price of the land your house sits upon, was it paid for by a disease ridden blanket?

[Spidey]

I supported the two state solution up until 911, now the Jews can have the entire region, as far as I’m concerned.

[callmeslick]

so, it's all about conquest now, Woody? On our(the US taxpayer's) dime, in great degree?? Screw that. Either we don't support an Apartheid regime, or they can figure out a way to either incorporate the land and citizenry as full citizens or set up a separate, independant nation on those lands(which precludes 'settling' them, needless to say).

Oh, and what is it that MAKES Israel all that great an ally? In my lifetime, they've attacked a ship of ours, spied on us in an ongoing fashion, stolen nuclear secrets from us and demanded a level of support that has made us a regional pariah. With friends like this..........etc.

[Tunnelcat]

unless they cease the settlements, they deserve to be an international pariah. Period.

And who are you or anyone to tell a sovereign country how they use their land?

Since we're the ones trying to broker a lasting peace for both parties and we're the nation who's supplied them with BILLIONS of dollars of foreign aid for decades, WE DO have that right. If the Netanyahu wants to take over land that the Palestinians also want to live on, then we should get the hell out of ALL negotiations with Netanyahu, sit back and watch the chaos and let the chips fall where they may. And I'll just love watching Trump have his one-sided relations with the Israelis while trying to broker a peace deal with the Palestinians. I can guarantee you they won't want to play nice if they're getting the short end of the stick.

I'd also like to hear Flabbychick's opinion on this if she's been trolling the board lately.

And I bet you are with the crowd that thought "The only good redskin is a dead redskin". Where and how did we get our land here in America. Was the price of the land your house sits upon, was it paid for by a disease ridden blanket?

We DID take forcibly this land from the natives who lived here first, so does that mean that might makes right as conquerors? Plus, we white Europeans DID bring Smallpox to every native in both Americas in the hemisphere and eventually used it as a weapon. What a nice gift we bestowed upon them in exchange for taking away their land and resources all for ourselves.

[callmeslick]

you left out bubonic plague, TC, but spot on otherwise. Plague essentially made the entire Eastern seaboard ripe for occupation. The Pilgrims landed where their guides knew there to be a population for simple survival planning. Instead, the Cape was essentially devoid of former population levels from disease deaths. Likewise, the Mid-Atlantic where my people settled, the Eastern Shore up to what is now Southern PA had been thinned of population to the point where the natives were simply overrun by numbers over a century of colonization. Things got messier to the south and westward settlements.

[woodchip]

so, it's all about conquest now, Woody? On our(the US taxpayer's) dime, in great degree?? Screw that. Either we don't support an Apartheid regime, or they can figure out a way to either incorporate the land and citizenry as full citizens or set up a separate, independant nation on those lands(which precludes 'settling' them, needless to say).

Apartheid? I suggest you look at indian tribal lands and how the BIA treats them:

Many American Indians are not happy with the performance of the BIA. It has a long history of mismanagement of American Indian Tribal and individual resources.

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/n ... -fox-news/

If we don't have apartheid involving the indians, why do we need a govt. agency to deal with them...or is the Great White Father" syndrome still alive and well? Sad that people like you slick condone such practices.

Oh, and what is it that MAKES Israel all that great an ally? In my lifetime, they've attacked a ship of ours, spied on us in an ongoing fashion, stolen nuclear secrets from us and demanded a level of support that has made us a regional pariah. With friends like this..........etc.

And yet they have shared intelligence with us and destroyed Saddams attempt to become a nuclear power. Did we have to send troops to aid Israel in their various wars? and when Saddam dropped scud missiles on Tel Aviv, did Israel lash out or did they do as we asked and do nothing. ? Sorry slick, your reasoning is once again weak and I'm sure you are one of those on the loser lefts that would rather try to be buddies with Iran than with Israel.

[Vander]

he had the US vote against Israels settlement program through a UN resolution.

This is not accurate. The US did not vote on the resolution. We simply didn't veto the resolution outright, which allowed 14 other nations to record their vote.

To say that we are not siding with Israel on pretty much everything, including military technology transfer/funding, is absurd.

[woodchip]

redundant

[woodchip]

This is not accurate. The US did not vote on the resolution. We simply didn't veto the resolution outright, which allowed 14 other nations to record their vote.

I stand corrected

To say that we are not siding with Israel on pretty much everything, including military technology transfer/funding, is absurd.

Did I say everything?

[callmeslick]

and again, these are supposed to be our 'allies'? I say we shun these folks ASAP. Permanently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ion-of-war

[Nightshade]

The US did not vote on the resolution.

No, but the Obama administration pushed for the resolution in collusion with the so-called 'palestinians.'

We simply didn't veto the resolution outright, which allowed 14 other nations to record their vote.

The Obama regime pushed the resolution specifically to 'abstain' and to attack Israel in a 'passive aggressive' way (though having pushed for the resolution behind the scenes is anything but passive. It's all aggression.)

It's Obama's last slap at Israel on his way out.

[callmeslick]

The US did not vote on the resolution.

No, but the Obama administration pushed for the resolution in collusion with the so-called 'palestinians.'

according to 'evidence' our 'Allies' are playing games with. ★■◆● 'em.

[Top Gun]

Netanyahu is a ★■◆●ing ★■◆● who deserves every bit of ★■◆● that flies his way. Oh, and the whole "settlements" thing is in blatant violation of international law.

[Spidey]

So was the attack on Israel after its formation.

[callmeslick]

So was the attack on Israel after its formation.

that was HOW many years ago? Hell, it can EASILY be argued that the entire creation of the State of Israel was a violation of International Law, or at least an internatonal sanction and acquiescence to terrorists. But, it's time to deal with the right now, if anyone wishes to see real peace.

[Spidey]

So in essence what you are saying is…the same law body that voted to recognize Israel is the same one that now declares the settlements illegal.

[Top Gun]

So was the attack on Israel after its formation.

Which has what bearing, exactly? I'm not going to criticize Israel for seizing that territory at the time, but as slick pointed out, that was fifty years ago. What practical purpose does holding them serve today, other than turning Israel into an international pariah and inflaming the sentiments of the Palestinian residents there? Or even if one accepts the argument that the territories continue to be held as some sort of self-defensive measure, violating the Geneva Convention and building civilian settlements on those lands is blatantly detrimental to Israel's security. The only feasible way that any sort of long-lasting peace occurs in that region is via Palestinian self-governance, yet Netanyahu absurdly rejects this to appease the ultra-nationalist war hawks, which is sickening.

[Spidey]

Your right, what was I thinking…perhaps we should give back all of that territory we gained after the Mexican-American war…I mean its been more than 50 years, what is the point of holding it?

I'm pretty sure Israel has given back as much of that land as its going to...

Israel gave back the Sinai, perhaps if the Palestinian's had better leadership...and didn't elect whack job governments...

Just saying.

[callmeslick]

as I said, already, Spidey. If they wish to keep the land(as you note we did with the Mexican American war territories), then make the residents all citizens, as we did with all lands incorporated into the US. Full citizens, with full voting rights. Look, either Israel goes back to previous, accepted boundries and remains a strictly Jewish state, or they keep the entire Palestinian region and have a pluralistic nation with the Palestinian arabs and others. There is no other option that isn't unstable.

[woodchip]

and again, these are supposed to be our 'allies'? I say we shun these folks ASAP. Permanently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ion-of-war

Yes, lets become allies with a group of people who teach their children to hate and kill jews. I guess slick, you must be proud to be anti-Semitic.

[woodchip]

So was the attack on Israel after its formation.

that was HOW many years ago? Hell, it can EASILY be argued that the entire creation of the State of Israel was a violation of International Law, or at least an internatonal sanction and acquiescence to terrorists. But, it's time to deal with the right now, if anyone wishes to see real peace.

I think you are forgetting the intifadas started and peace accords broken by the Palestinians. Their avowed desire is the death of all the jews. Right along there with your buddies the Iranians.

[callmeslick]

and again, these are supposed to be our 'allies'? I say we shun these folks ASAP. Permanently.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ion-of-war

Yes, lets become allies with a group of people who teach their children to hate and kill jews. I guess slick, you must be proud to be anti-Semitic.

I'm neither anti-Semitic, nor even anti Jewish(way different meanings, in reality). Why does rejecting ABSOLUTE support of Israel translate into alliance with 'people who teach their children....' etc. The only ones doing THAT are Trump supporters, cozying up with proven Nazi sympathisers. No, I am suggesting that a real alliance deals with MUTUAL benefit and that the US has gotten negative benefits from our relationship with Israel. Time is way overdue for rethinking.

[woodchip]

Where are Trump supporters cozying up to Nazis sympathizers? More fake news slick?

[callmeslick]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnb7Kz


when you have to urge your supporters not to use a Nazi salute, or say 'sieg heil', you sort of get the idea they just MAY be neo-Nazis.

[woodchip]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnb7Kz


when you have to urge your supporters not to use a Nazi salute, or say 'sieg heil', you sort of get the idea they just MAY be neo-Nazis.

Wow, you really are a idiot. Linking a story about a group disavowed by Trump and trying to tie it in as a group that is approved. Sorry, but dis-inviting people who have posted racist tweets, one would think that would meet with your approval. Instead you try and fake news it like these are mainstream trump supporters. Want me to dig up idiots that supported Sanders or Clinton?

[Spidey]

as I said, already, Spidey. If they wish to keep the land(as you note we did with the Mexican American war territories), then make the residents all citizens, as we did with all lands incorporated into the US. Full citizens, with full voting rights. Look, either Israel goes back to previous, accepted boundries and remains a strictly Jewish state, or they keep the entire Palestinian region and have a pluralistic nation with the Palestinian arabs and others. There is no other option that isn't unstable.

That is a valid point, but I don’t believe it will happen until they have made the Arabs a permanent minority.

[callmeslick]

So in essence what you are saying is…the same law body that voted to recognize Israel is the same one that now declares the settlements illegal.

actually, a very good summary. Why is the State of Israel now thumbing its nose at the very body that gave them legitimacy?

[Spidey]

I can’t really say without speaking for others, but my guess would be the wars, rockets launched into Israel and the constant threat of being pushed into the sea, have some bearing on the matter.