Descent 1 1/2

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:02 am

I guess Makemake is a little creepy.
D1 level 14 then, I guess.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:18 pm

Well, our next order of business should definitely be me finishing the Cauldron, but that's going to take a while, I need to get some inspiration. I totally wouldn't mind someone else finishing that level by the way, provided some conditions are fulfilled.

We should also take a look at Lightwolf's submissions. I've already done extensive editing to Dacol Futyl Caverns (took me like half a day), but there are still levels that need some serious getting looked at. I say we better do it now so we don't have to worry about it later. Any volunteers?

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:45 am

Xfing wrote:Well, our next order of business should definitely be me finishing the Cauldron, but that's going to take a while, I need to get some inspiration. I totally wouldn't mind someone else finishing that level by the way, provided some conditions are fulfilled.

We should also take a look at Lightwolf's submissions. I've already done extensive editing to Dacol Futyl Caverns (took me like half a day), but there are still levels that need some serious getting looked at. I say we better do it now so we don't have to worry about it later. Any volunteers?

Toss one my way if you'd like, and I can play around with it. I've started on my Beta Ceti level a bit, concepts in my mind aren't transferring too well yet but I just gotta figure out the right geometry.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:14 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:Well, our next order of business should definitely be me finishing the Cauldron, but that's going to take a while, I need to get some inspiration. I totally wouldn't mind someone else finishing that level by the way, provided some conditions are fulfilled.

We should also take a look at Lightwolf's submissions. I've already done extensive editing to Dacol Futyl Caverns (took me like half a day), but there are still levels that need some serious getting looked at. I say we better do it now so we don't have to worry about it later. Any volunteers?
Toss one my way if you'd like, and I can play around with it. I've started on my Beta Ceti level a bit, concepts in my mind aren't transferring too well yet but I just gotta figure out the right geometry.

Well, I think his Beta Ceti level needs the most immediate attention, that's level 49.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:53 pm

Having played it before, is there anything specific you'd like done with it? Obviously I'm going to clean up textures, typical wall textures are used for floors, things like that. But is there any geometry you want me to change/optimize/add?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:34 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:Having played it before, is there anything specific you'd like done with it? Obviously I'm going to clean up textures, typical wall textures are used for floors, things like that. But is there any geometry you want me to change/optimize/add?

Well it's your call really. What do you feel this level lacks to be truly good? What makes it mediocre? How to remedy it? What sections need removing and replacing with better ones?

I trust your judgment entirely

And thanks for doing it, much appreciated.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:00 pm

It's very rough, and I've got my share of complaints on it.

For starters, it does not feel like it has a common theme. The rooms are all different textures, some of which do not fit together.

Abundant use of computer screens. They're cool, for sure, but they're used too often and take away from the uniqueness of them.

Weird geometry for lights. Lightwolf, why did you do so many cubes dedicated to a light fixture? It doesn't feel like Descent 2, or even Vertigo for that matter. That kind of light style and door light style was never done for D2. Stretched D1 light textures, the use of forcefield textures as lights, it just doesn't work. Those are meant to have forcefields, not as lights. It simply doesn't fit what this mission is going for.

Tight geometry. In all honesty, save for a few rooms, this feels like a Descent 1 level with D2 textures. I can't possibly see where 700+ cubes were used, because it just feels so small and tight. Not good for the theme of a vertigo style map; those maps were sprawling, humongous monstrosities.

The one tower of grass. You know the one I mean. No lights, tight geometry, all walls/floors/ceilings have the same texture. It's just a bad room.

If i were to play this map not knowing the spot it was attempting to fill, I would not have guessed a beta ceti military base. I would have pegged it as a Descent 1 level with a green theme, nothing more.

I feel like this level would fit better earlier in the level, with a LOT of changes made to it. Removing the weird flanking door lights, expanding the geometry a bit, retexturing for a D1 setting. I want to scrap the entire red area, to be honest. To have such a tight level, and all of a sudden have a gigantic water feature, wouldn't fit the D1 style, and it doesn't really complement this level at all.

The thing to keep in mind here is this is not a mission like The Enemy Within. IIRC, Descent 1 1/2 is meant to capture the essence of the original two games + vertigo. The Enemy Within was allowed to push the editor and cube geometry because that's what they wanted to do. Going crazy on the geometry, just for the sake of lighting, simply doesn't fit.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:45 am

While I agree that we're trying to capture the essence of the originals, it's not really to such an extent that geometry needs to be tight in the D1 portion and cavernous in the Vertigo portion. Both are fine, really, since it's mostly the texturing that creates the mood. Geometry is more about gameplay, and it's the larger layout that contributes to the feel of the level more than any particular room.

That said yes, there are problems with this level, as there are with Coolyard Station. The Solar System level is probably the best, but it was also made the latest, still needs a ton of changes on its own though.

The Vertigo portion in general is completely free for all, but some more advanced geometry and mechanics would indeed be welcome.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:45 pm

Updated Beta Ceti Weapons Research to fix a couple of bugs that have been bugging me, most notably the geometry in the yellow door that I finally figured out how to improve.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwhA94 ... sp=sharing

I also changed the function of the switch at the bottom of the yellow door to put you a little closer to the intended "main entrance" of the red door when you leave.

Edit: Override that .HOG with this one that fixed the yellow door's lighting:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwhA94 ... sp=sharing

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sat May 06, 2017 3:27 pm

And you will need to replace the yellow door's Omega drops from blank to red key. Due to life circumstances I can't do that anytime real soon.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon May 08, 2017 9:40 am

In the meantime, I took a look at the Cauldron today. Added an entry room, two secret areas and the reactor area. I've also added some functionality to the huge cavernous room, with two matcens both triggered in 3 places and a small hostage cell. 179 segments left - I'm thinking about using 29 of them on the areas revealed when the lava is drained (containing the red key), so that 150 are left for the sideways passages that each contain a single key, and some fuel center. Working under constraints is good for creativity, I gotta say

Good thing there's the central hub in this level that has those four matcens, that old trick with increasing the amount of action without actualy adding geometry to the level due to the necessity of backtracking really saves the day this time around. They will be triggered by one-shot triggers with 2 triggerings of each diagonal pair of matcens, for 4 waves of different mechs in total.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon May 08, 2017 5:45 pm

Oh, guess what, I went and finished the entire level. It just happened. Took me a good few hours, but the creative juices flowed like a waterfall and I made all that was missing in one sitting. I even have 15 segments to spare, which I never thought would happen, actually I thought I'd have to struggle removing existing segments just to make room for more. Check out the level and let me know what you think. You could even use up the remaining 15 segments, for some more secret areas or detail if you come up with an idea. Even with the current cube count, secrets are rather abundant (ironically there are none in the 600-cube area). The progression of the level is also a little bit less straightforward than your regular level, as it does rely on switches. I feel that it diversifies gameplay somewhat.

The level is overall rather short, but not extremely so, and there'll definitely be plenty of action to slow you down along the way. I've managed to keep with the Martian reds/ash theme, these textures really do get their spotlight in this level. Hope you like it!

It's up on Dropbox in the Level 26 directory. Or if you don't have the patience or access:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/biixokzzo5jo ... CVnja?dl=0

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Mon May 08, 2017 9:08 pm

Truthfully, this was a very enjoyable level to play! The geometry was really cool, and pushes the boundaries of what the engine can do. The texture work was impeccable as well, you did a fantastic job mixing metl with rock. My only potential complaint is that tiny red pillar on the pool of lava, I think you know the one. It's not a bad thing, but the geometry of it might be too small, and could be a problem for the player to get stuck on. It's probably fine though!

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 09, 2017 1:54 am

Kaizerwolf wrote:Truthfully, this was a very enjoyable level to play! The geometry was really cool, and pushes the boundaries of what the engine can do. The texture work was impeccable as well, you did a fantastic job mixing metl with rock. My only potential complaint is that tiny red pillar on the pool of lava, I think you know the one. It's not a bad thing, but the geometry of it might be too small, and could be a problem for the player to get stuck on. It's probably fine though!

Oh yeah, that little pillar there. An unfortunate leftover from the geometric procedure. I think removing it by adding another cube there would probably be best. I'll also try and find uses for the remaining 14 cubes. This level is small, but Descent 2 does give lots of liberty with making secrets thanks to the "remove wall" trigger. I think I already have an idea, expect an update shortly. Glad you liked the level, Kaizerwolf

ΕDIT: Aaaaand done. Removed the little pillar and added some secret areas in the same branch of the map. 899 cubes now, since at 900 the editor was already yelling "too many". So yeah, this level is pretty much done now, all that's left is to populate it with stuff. Some time is definitely going to pass before I take up another one, since the league is still on in Path of Exile and I really need 40/40 challenges for that cute bird at the top of the trophy, haha

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Tue May 09, 2017 8:37 am

Sweet, I'll give it a fly-through later. You're making me want to continue on with my Beta Ceti level again, I'm thinking of things and finding inspiration here and there!

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 09, 2017 11:33 am

[quote="Kaizerwolf"]Sweet, I'll give it a fly-through later. You're making me want to continue on with my Beta Ceti level again, I'm thinking of things and finding inspiration here and there![/quote

Oh right, that! Well good luck! I'll have to take a look at Lightwolf's Solar System level first and foremost, then I'll see about some new level of my own. I don't like rushing, waiting for inspiration has proven way more fruitful in my case

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri May 12, 2017 9:40 pm

Two suggestions for Cauldron:
1. The yellow room has a pair of light segments where a single light fixture spills across two segments. Make this light one of the unbreakable kinds so you don't get the effect where half a lightbulb is broken and the other half still shining.

2. Is it possible to make the drain lava trigger "no message", so you don't spoil the illusion with a "walls opened"?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat May 13, 2017 2:50 am

Alter-Fox wrote:Two suggestions for Cauldron:
1. The yellow room has a pair of light segments where a single light fixture spills across two segments. Make this light one of the unbreakable kinds so you don't get the effect where half a lightbulb is broken and the other half still shining.

2. Is it possible to make the drain lava trigger "no message", so you don't spoil the illusion with a "walls opened"?

These changes are minor enough, no problem. Done already in fact

BTW Lightwolf, I need you to PM me some minor details regarding your level Coolyard Station. I need to know:
- how to open the grates containing the cloaking device
- how to open two sets of walls: one's in the hub chamber where the matcen is (on the right side of one of the yellow doors) and another's at the bottom of the first zigzag stairwell-like section leading tot that lengthy puzzle section. I noticed no switches nor triggers for these two walls

Other than that the changes that need to be made are rather minor, maybe slightly reduce the amount of red in this level - Zeta Aquilae are supposed to be mishmash levels after all (I suggest the round-ish area where you trigger the lowering of the forcefield that contains the blue key) and remove one flight out of each of the stair-like puzzles. Those only lengthen the level artificially.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun May 14, 2017 7:14 pm

I made some changes to Litter Jungle so it now resembles a Descent Maximum secret level.
And I removed all the enemies that weren't lifter types (except for one supervisor) to give it some sense of a theme.

Had been thinking about it and ultimately I think it will work best as a secret level. Not sure which one it will be -- but there shouldn't be many changes necessary to placements at this point.

Finally found a copy of Vertigo Gadget/Fortress as well and I'm in the process of checking it for bugs. Seems alright so far. Some retexturing and a little rejiggery will be needed as well since I don't think it's an entirely current copy.
Also started extending that other map with the big lava rooms so it can become a full-sized non-boss map.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 16, 2017 2:04 am

Sweet! Let me know when you decide which secret level you want Litter Jungle to be. Solar System I assume?

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:04 am

It needs to use a lot of switch triggers to keep the progression going (again, like Descent Maximum's later secret levels that tried to simulate keys). I'm not sure if that's going to fit in the Solar System portion even as a secret.
But if you think it could, that'll widen my options.

Vertigo Gadget seems to be working but the enemy placement is still geared to a penultimate or final level in a four- or five-level set. I'm not sure how much I can change before the red mines stop showing up in-game as DLE likes to do these days -- and there's a few places in that one where they become a deliberate challenge in themselves.

EDIT: They're up! Music track suggestions for level 52 as well -- D1 level 7 for the midi (I always kinda thought that should have been the music track for Pluto Military Base) and Claw Marks on the OST.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 16, 2017 11:31 am

Alter-Fox wrote:It needs to use a lot of switch triggers to keep the progression going (again, like Descent Maximum's later secret levels that tried to simulate keys). I'm not sure if that's going to fit in the Solar System portion even as a secret.
But if you think it could, that'll widen my options.

Vertigo Gadget seems to be working but the enemy placement is still geared to a penultimate or final level in a four- or five-level set. I'm not sure how much I can change before the red mines stop showing up in-game as DLE likes to do these days -- and there's a few places in that one where they become a deliberate challenge in themselves.

EDIT: They're up! Music track suggestions for level 52 as well -- D1 level 7 for the midi (I always kinda thought that should have been the music track for Pluto Military Base) and Claw Marks on the OST.

Ok lemme check them out. So you want the level to be called Vertigo Gadget after all? I really think Vertigo Fortress had a better ring to it, haha

Also, for some reason I can't run it, my Rebirth asks for vrtgo.ham :O wonder why that is? I tried changing the msn file and that doesn't solve it either. Same with littr.ham, I can't even check these levels as it is now

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Oh.
I forgot to put the vertigo ham in the hog files. They should work now.

I think I was leery of using the Vertigo Fortress name because it was specific to the project I originally had in mind when I built those three maps (and then decided I would merge that project with this one). There would have been six maps with a "'word' Fortress" name. I kinda thought having a name that makes it sound like the innards of some giant green granite machine the robots built would be cooler, and could give some kind of a justification for the floating rock setpieces.
If you really don't like the word Gadget we could go for Engine.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 16, 2017 11:42 am

Vertigo! Right, that. I forgot completely it could be because of that!

Ok lemme check them out

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:12 pm

I really liked the secret areas you added for a D1-ified version of Litter Jungle. Think you could put them back again? Not necessarily in the same spots, but you know, seeing as how it's going to be a secret level, numerous goodie caches are a must.

As for Vertigo Fortress (yeah, I insist on that name), I've noticed some minor stuff to be changed as early as the starting room. The energy center needs the proper texture instead of the sandy one (conventions) and there is a break in the grate encircling the room on the level of the red door. Both easily fixed.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:19 pm

Huh. Yeah I suppose if I had been going for the Descent Maximum energy center look I shoulda stuck with it. Easy fix, but I'd appreciate if you could do it because, again, DLE likes to mess with the red mine placements.
I don't remember adding any secrets to Litter Jungle for that version. It's still on the dropbox for checking, right?

If it's not gonna be called "Vertigo Gadget" could we at least go with something like "Vertigo Engine"? I just feel like Fortress is a too-generic word for that level's quirkyness.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:35 pm

Alter-Fox wrote:Huh. Yeah I suppose if I had been going for the Descent Maximum energy center look I shoulda stuck with it. Easy fix, but I'd appreciate if you could do it because, again, DLE likes to mess with the red mine placements.

Ok

Alter-Fox wrote:I don't remember adding any secrets to Litter Jungle for that version. It's still on the dropbox for checking, right?
Yeah, under Level 09.

Alter-Fox wrote:If it's not gonna be called "Vertigo Gadget" could we at least go with something like "Vertigo Engine"? I just feel like Fortress is a too-generic word for that level's quirkyness.

Yeah, but it's huge and expansive, feels just like a fortress when playing through it. What happened to naming levels after actual locales instead of metaphors?

That said, I can go with Vertigo Engine I guess. It's a step in the right direction for sure, because "gadget" sounds like something small and not a huge alien installation. Engine at least has some nice metaphorical ring to it.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:39 pm

It wasn't a metaphor.

I thought with all the forcefields and weird geometry and shootable triggers everywhere it looked like it could be the inside of some giant green granite machine.
Found the two secrets you mentioned, and I'm copying them over. Putting a little puzzle in to get into them and tie them together (since they've got similar geometry) as well.

And it's done.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:43 pm

I marked level 52 as done and moved level 9 to secret level 5, so I'm putting this in the Vertigo section. Just six secret levels doesn't feel like a lot for so many regular levels, so we need to make sure they're top of the line. Adding more if necessary isn't a definite no, but we've still got plenty of work to do on the regular levels before that happens.

BTW since now I catch your drift, what do you think about Vertigo Automaton? Or even better, Vertigo Apparatus?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:55 pm

Also, I think you can change that one blue secret door in Litter Jungle to a matching type, right now it kinda sticks out. To be fair though, we can get to correcting all that minor stuff in "alpha". Yeah.

As for the robot gimmick, I thought you meant the level would only contain melee robots, not so much ones with "lifter" in their names and ones resembling those

Oh well, your call I guess.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue May 16, 2017 3:56 pm

Nah, I meant any bots that physically have claws -- there is certainly an emphasis on melee types now though that there wasn't before.

Xfing wrote: BTW since now I catch your drift, what do you think about Vertigo Automaton? Or even better, Vertigo Apparatus?

Heh. I took a look at all those synonyms. The internet is a very good thesaurus.
I think if it wants to sound ominous "engine" is the way to go.

As for that secret: I want the entrance to be somewhat obvious since it's locked at first. Kinda like wanting you to know that you're missing something.
I may have another idea though...

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:58 am

Alter-Fox wrote:Nah, I meant any bots that physically have claws -- there is certainly an emphasis on melee types now though that there wasn't before.
Xfing wrote: BTW since now I catch your drift, what do you think about Vertigo Automaton? Or even better, Vertigo Apparatus?
Heh. I took a look at all those synonyms. The internet is a very good thesaurus.
I think if it wants to sound ominous "engine" is the way to go.

As for that secret: I want the entrance to be somewhat obvious since it's locked at first. Kinda like wanting you to know that you're missing something.
I may have another idea though...

Yeah, doorlights + secret door. Obvious enough

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed May 17, 2017 1:38 am

I've made some slight changes:

Level 52:
- renamed the mission and level to Vertigo Engine, as agreed
- Fixed all texture misalignments I could find including the ceiling beyond the yellow door, the energy center texture in the far energy center and the grate in the starting room
- Changed that first energy center's texture to the traditional one

Level S5:

- Since you've added the doorlights already, I changed the secret door to a matching one, it's still plenty obvious and that other door you used really clashed
- Fixed one grate door where there was no underlying base texture, I added one. Even though the texture is not seen, without it the door is not see-through until it's opened for the first time
- I changed the colored textures at the keys to their simpler equivalents from D1. Something bothers me about those textures from D2, they look way too much as if ripped off a robot, I prefer the traditional ones
- Added a yellow tape texture to the yellow key switch to make it match the other key switches (that also have colored tape around them)

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed May 17, 2017 8:31 am

Ooh. I did forget that yellow tape didn't I?
What do you think of having the "blue" door lock behind the player, for some extra challenge?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed May 17, 2017 1:48 pm

Alter-Fox wrote:Ooh. I did forget that yellow tape didn't I?
What do you think of having the "blue" door lock behind the player, for some extra challenge?

Well, it's a secret level after all, and those from D2 were known for having points of no return, one-shot secrets etc. I kinda like what the level turned out to be like, since its design is kind of an amalgamation of the D1 and D2 secret level styles. It is accessed by a teleporter and contains relatively little resistance, but not as little as D2's secret levels, and its progression is much more similar to traditional level progressions from D1. It'll also be geared towards collecting stuff like D2's secret levels of course. Your idea? Sure, go for it if there's another teleporter beyond the blue door that can be taken so that the earlier section can still be reaccessed. So the door should only be locked from one side.

BTW, how do hostages in secret levels work in D2? Are their hostage bonuses added to the base level's if you are able to return to one? Because if you aren't, they obviously aren't carried over to the next regular level, now are they?

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed May 17, 2017 3:11 pm

I think they're added to the base level's points if you don't blow up the secret level. If not you still get the points for picking them up.
My actual reason for suggesting the blue door lock is entirely the opposite of what you say -- so that if you don't unlock that final secret the first time around the only way to try again costs you a life. I also kinda like the idea that it would be a point of no return where you now have to blow up the mine to get back to the story.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed May 17, 2017 3:26 pm

Alter-Fox wrote:I think they're added to the base level's points if you don't blow up the secret level. If not you still get the points for picking them up.
My actual reason for suggesting the blue door lock is entirely the opposite of what you say -- so that if you don't unlock that final secret the first time around the only way to try again costs you a life. I also kinda like the idea that it would be a point of no return where you now have to blow up the mine to get back to the story.

Well, even in zeta aquilae's secret level you were trapped in a later section of the level with no way to get back, but you still spawned back at the beginning if you exited the level through the teleport and came back in again. It did help somewhat, though many of the puzzles were still lost if you didn't get them the first time. Well, maybe your way is the better way here, sounds like something that'll increase the replay value. But this needs to be made rewarding, so the level will have to contain lots of extra lives, megas and shakers

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed May 17, 2017 6:39 pm

Well, if it's one of the last two that shouldn't be a problem.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu May 18, 2017 12:19 am

My guess is that the hostage rescue count increments until you reach an end-level score screen, whichever that happens to be. How full rescue is determined is another interesting question - it might just trigger if you have hostages on board and there are none left in the level, but I couldn't be sure it doesn't count how many you have versus either the base or current level.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu May 18, 2017 12:31 am

Sirius wrote:My guess is that the hostage rescue count increments until you reach an end-level score screen, whichever that happens to be. How full rescue is determined is another interesting question - it might just trigger if you have hostages on board and there are none left in the level, but I couldn't be sure it doesn't count how many you have versus either the base or current level.

Figured something like that would be the case, but I'm not sure either.

BTW how's it going with Glacierspire? Sirius, we need you!