Pipe Dream to Patent

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:28 am

Pipe Dream to Patent

I am looking for some feedback on a treatment option I am considering for Obstructive Sleep Apnea. I want to modify the current CPAP treatment. During this treatment a 20 cm water column positive air pressure is created in the airway by connecting the patient to a compressor via a mask or tubes connected to the nose or mouth. This works for most but it is not fun to sleep with your face connected to a hose. Many people cannot use the treatment due to several complications. My pipe dream is to create the positive air pressure in the airway by having the patient sleep in a chamber with a positive air pressure created by a Thomas Compressor (688CE44) and maintained by a relief valve. I can do the first full pressure test with a Gamow Bag in about a week. I did a test to about 10 cm and the frequency of my snoring was higher and no apnea event occurred; but the recording was not very clear. So I would like to hear your thoughts.
Patent Pending

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:59 am

I'd say if you go sleeping in a pressurized chamber, the air in your lungs and throat will equally rise in pressure, thereby cancelling out any effect a difference in pressure might yield. The only pressure difference is still the one that forces air in and out of your lungs, i.e. thorax enlargment and shrinking. Those differences are minimal since the airflow is almost free to enter and leave the lungs.

So from what little you give us to go on, I'd say it won't work at all.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:31 am

Tricord it is the absolute static pressure present in the airway that is responsible for holding open the floppy walls of the airway of a OSA patent not the difference in and outside the body. You seeing the pressure inside the body cavity system of mouth windpipe and lungs equalizing with ambient pressure in the chamber is farther than most get. The static air pressure is only keeping the tissue in the airway stiff; compressed against the neck structure, not floppy and susceptible to the suction of the diaphragm as it gets when a patent relaxes. Now the rub would be if the pressure on the outside of the body altered the effect of the static air pressure on the floppy tissue in the air cavity. I do not see that happening. The neck is a ridged structure protecting the connection to the rest of the body. Your move;)

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:50 pm

AAAH!

You mean "patient".

Mickey, you're delusional: Ambient air pressure won't have any effect whatsoever. Tricord is entirely correct.

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:03 pm

Though given the way the US Patent Office doesn't do their job, I'd bet he'd get a patent on pressurized air, and then sue everyone for breathing

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:16 pm

Tricord wrote:I'd say if you go sleeping in a pressurized chamber, the air in your lungs and throat will equally rise in pressure, thereby cancelling out any effect a difference in pressure might yield. The only pressure difference is still the one that forces air in and out of your lungs, i.e. thorax enlargment and shrinking. Those differences are minimal since the airflow is almost free to enter and leave the lungs.

So from what little you give us to go on, I'd say it won't work at all.

This is what the C-Pap does, only on a smaller scale. It pressurize your respritory system and saturates it with O2. That's pbjective; increased oxygen levels. My wife uses one and it's not too bad. ... until the blockage in your throat which is CAUSING the problem in the first place forces the air out your mouth. She's prescribed 17psi. Which is extremely high.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:21 pm

I think the original poster is right -- what matters isn't the pressure difference between your airway and the outside world, but the pressure difference between your airway and various compartments in your body. Since those compartments are sealed, they have a fixed amount of pressure, so increasing the overall pressure in the room should at least have some effect.

It might not be as efficient as something like a CPAP machine, but it should be functional.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:57 pm

There have been studies that show increasing the atmospheric pressure and the O2 level accelerates healing. There have been dramatic increases in plant growth under the same circumstances.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:35 pm

What about decompression sickness or breathing the pressurized air for long periods?
The people who worked in the underwater caissons of the Brooklyn Bridge were sick and dying from working in a pressurized enviroment. I don't know what the pressure was but I'd look into it...

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:04 pm

There is of course a decompression phase. It would do no good to go through all that then die from the bends.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:32 pm

Mobius ambient air pressure does keep most peoples airway open. Only about 6% are OSA suffers and they just have looser tissue in their throat and need more air pressure to keep it open. If you put the OSA patient in a chamber and increase the air pressure in the chamber you increase the static air pressure in the airway also, just like Tricord stated. This is what presses against the walls of the throat and stops it from flopping. This is what CPAP machines do. Duper are you sure it isn't 17 cm of water column pressure and not 17 PSI. I thought a CPAP system only could do 20 cm of water column air pressure. The pressure is too low to require decompression. I need to check the Navy Dive Table to be sure. To sum it up; is the result of pressure introduced into the airway by the CPAP machine the same as putting a person into a chamber of the same or greater positive pressure?

Sting_Ray · Post by **Sting_Ray** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:53 pm

You will learn, mickey, that Mobius and Tricord know everything about everything... even stuff they don't really know anything about. You are also always incorrect in their views.

So you are wrong.

Thank you and good day.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:03 pm

Mickey1 wrote:Duper are you sure it isn't 17 cm of water column pressure and not 17 PSI. I thought a CPAP system only could do 20 cm of water column air pressure.

Oh, that might be, the dude that came out and ran us through the thing was a bit of a dork. Whining and complaining about his job. *whatever* So yea, you are probably right.

A C-Pap does not pressurize anything really. It creates a consistant preassure within your respritory system and also has a back pressure "value". So there is NO POSSIBLE way of getting the bends from it. (if I understood what you were asking/answering to) It requires pressure throughout your entire body and sudden change, as we know, before the nitrogen "boils" in your blood. This is what causes the bends. The nitrogen in your blood begins to bubble like bubble in a soda bottle when shaken and the top opened, but not quite that severe.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:40 pm

Duper the CPAP system actually does pressurizes the air way. That is why you can't have any leaks. Mobius come on work with me here. Will the effect of the increase in static pressure in the airway created by the CPAP system be the same as the effect of creating an increase in static air pressure in the airway by putting the person in a pressurized chamber of the same pressure? The difference is only how the pressure is induced. So unless pressure on the whole body would some how cancel the effect of pressure in the airway (Tricord stated it would be the same) it should work like the CPAP system works. Only you would not have your face hooked up to a mask and hose blowing air in your face. Mobius are you clear on how this works yet. Ha, Ha Ha KaBoom

Sting_Ray · Post by **Sting_Ray** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:48 pm

I think what tricord was meaning was that the body will try to reach a state of equillibrium with the surrounding air pressure... whereas forced air intake would not cause that. With an air chamber, not only is the air you breathe pressurized, but so is the air pushing against your body. Your body will strive to equalize itself against the pressure... when you are just breathing pressurized air through a hose, your body won't need to equalize itself.

I think the dangers of sleeping in a pressurized environment would more than outweigh ANY good effects that it may bring around.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:03 am

Sting_Ray, I don't think so. Tricord, how about it?
Mobius, come on help out the delusional;) Something constructive this time.

Sting_Ray · Post by **Sting_Ray** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:23 am

Wow, you're an a

ss.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:29 am

Sting_Ray Oh, no! what did I do wrong now?

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:31 am

Sting_Ray wrote:I think what tricord was meaning was that the body will try to reach a state of equillibrium with the surrounding air pressure...

That's not entirely true... the body has some cavities that sit at substantially lower pressure than the surrounding environment, due to various forces such as muscle movement or simply the structure of the cavity. Breathing itself is simply an act of creating a very low-pressure region of the body by flexing certain muscles.

So, I don't think pressure equalization with the surrounding environment is necessarily a flaw in this design -- it may be that the internal body cavities equalize pressure with the outside, or it may not be.

What would really help would be a nice diagram of the systems in question...

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:44 am

Lothar, let me try another time with words first. Just started with Maya and it would take forever. All I am doing is taking and putting the mask of the CPAP system all around the patient not just up to their face. So will the pressure on the outside of the patient negate the pressure induced in the airway? I don't think so but OSA can make one delusional;)

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:41 am

To Lothar and everyone who is not convinced that increasing the ambient pressure will also rise the pressure in your body to compensate: look at divers. When they dive deep, their entire body operates at the increased pressure. Because the air they breate equally increases in pressure, they can breathe normally.

However, when they return to the surface from a deep point, they have to do it slowly and in stages, in order for the body to adapt to a lower pressure (because of the so called caisson-effect, gasses that are solved in the blood at high pressures evaporate when resurfacing too fast, causing effective bubbles in your bloodstream. And that's very bad).

Another example. If you bring a plastic bottle in a pressurized chamber, the bottle will not move if it's open, but will shrink if it's closed.

If you get in a plane, the slight pressure change will cause your hearing to fade until you "pop" them by yawning or something else. This is because the eustachius tube (sp?) has to adapt to the new pressure, which is omnipresent in your body.

Because the pressure equally rises all around and in you in such a chamber that mikey proposes, there is zero effect. The treatment Duper talks about works with a pressure difference, so if that's what helps, a complete pressurized chamber won't. I'm simply drawing a simple conclusion here.

Otherwise it would also imply that people living at the sea-level snore more than those high in the mountains.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:44 am

Sting_Ray wrote:You will learn, mickey, that Mobius and Tricord know everything about everything... even stuff they don't really know anything about. You are also always incorrect in their views.

So you are wrong.

Thank you and good day.

★■◆● you, Stingy. That was uncalled for. Stab me on-topic in the E&C forums all you like, but not here. I was only trying to help, I was polite and I said that from what little he gave us to work with, his method wouldn't work.

I can't speak for others, but when I reply in a science-related subject, I usually know what I'm talking about. Mickey was looking for feedback so I gave it to him.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:44 am

And I'm getting some thanks DBBers.
Tricord the treatment that Duper is talking about is called CPAP; Continuos Positive Air Pressure. CPAP does not work because of a pressure difference but because of the higher absolute static pressure it induces in the airway by making a seal around your mouth and or nose. All that matters is a static pressure in the airway with enough force to press the floppy tissue in your throat against the ridged structure of the neck. How about this, its like the lining of the airway is baggy when relaxed and the increase in static pressure holds it open. Don't forget that pressure is really the weight of the fluid exerting force in all directions. Decompression is used to allow the nitrogen to be released slowly from the blood and expired from the lungs not to let the body change its internal pressure. The pressure that CPAP uses (20 cm) is under the danger pressure of 30 feet of water pressure. Stay above 30 feet and no problem.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:21 am

I'm betting the chamber won't work because your body will adopt the pressure it's resting in and once it does the airway is back to dealing with only the *increase* in pressure that the diaphragm can produce, which is not enough.
If the body was capable of maintaining it's internal pressure regardless of the external pressure it rests in then divers wouldn't get the bends..

Where I could be wrong, I think, is if the pressure in the chamber is so low that the body won't adopt the new pressure in the time one would stay in it ie; 8 hours sleeping cycle. Perhaps the higher pressure of a 250 dive can force the body to change within minutes where this chambers pressure would require days to force the body to change...

An easy way to test your theory is gain access to a decompression chamber and set it for your chambers target pressure and go to sleep.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:32 am

http://www.locl.net/homes/mickey1art/descent3.html

I tricord with my feet.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:03 am

Danger! Will, reread my first posting. I will use a Gamow Bag (Google it) in about a week. Needed to get a medical prescription from my doctor to rent one and couldn't do that until I filed my patent. Just trying to see why nobody thought of this yet. Looks like the concepts are not as clear to all. Laws of physics are not common senceicle. Throw in the mysteries of the body and stuff can get missed. I just wanted a way to stop suffocating every time I took a nap. The mask thing seemed no fun. I would rather sleep in a box. This hassle with options today cause some people to get a hole cut in their throat to let the air in. I would rather sleep in a box.
Thanks for the help. Maybe with some good rest I could do better in the mines. Darn "Cadets".

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:50 am

Basically, what happens to you when you go under water (or under any other sort of pressure, for the matter) is your body "shrinks" to equalize the pressure. What mickey is saying is that due to the rigidity of the body, and whatever else- one of the places most affected by this "shrinking" is the tube that causes apnea. So, if you increase the outside pressure, the tube ever so slightly expands, and that slight bit harder that is it to collapse it is enough to keep the apnea from happening. Basically, the reduced pressure in the airway due to the air flow would shrink the tube back to original size, instead of collapsing it. (distantly related to the fact that you need a certain amount of back pressure to prevent cavitation on a water pump.)

Mickey: I think your main problem would be cost-effectiveness. You would have to make a fairly large pressure vessel in order for it to be thermally comfortable, usable by closterphobic people, etc. I think you will find that by the time you make something big enough to fit a bed in, (about the size I think you would need) the cost would put it far out of the range of the average Joe. I could be wrong, but thats my gut feeling.

kufyit · Post by **kufyit** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:58 am

Mickey1 wrote:http://www.locl.net/homes/mickey1art/descent3.html

I tricord with my feet.

Eh? Seriously?

rush · Post by **rush** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:11 pm

Just get enough money to buy yourself a Hyper-Baric Chamber...and sleep like Michael Jackson.

The concept is in essence a good one...Hyper-Baric medicine is making leaps and bounds with a ton of research lately. Perhaps you have stumbled on another use for it yet. There have been marked improvements in the body's ability to heal from internal and external injuries when a person has spent some time in a chamber. Stroke patients have quicker recovery times and less permanent damage. I don't see any reason it wouldn't be worth trying as long as you consider the myriad potential dangers involved--and since it sounds like you are your own first study patient... Go for it.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:04 pm

kufyit, seriously the link is to a picture of the controller I put together from a Gravis Game Pad Pro and a couple of push and hold buttons. The foot switches lets me keep my fingers on the keys at all time. I only have to twitch; no searching for the key I need. Rocker type: right toe- roll right, right heel- roll left, left toe- down, left heel- up. Keyboard ASDF Spacebar turbo and the MX500.
Rush thanks, stumbled?:) I think I have. Danger is minimal at the low pressure needed. Just got the Doctor's note to get the Gamow Bag. I should be able to do the test soon. Never give up, never surrender. Ha, Ha, Ha, KaBoom!!

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:38 pm

Snoopy, Rush I think you guys are the first to get the whole concept right. The size for my chamber will be 6'x8'x6'. Cost will be about the same as CPAP; $2,000. Gamow Bags made to go up a mountain cost about $2,500. The Sleep Chamber can be made out of 4x4s and 3/4" plywood. I'll mass-produced out of fiberglass. The pump is about $400.00. Remember the positive pressure is very low compared to a hyperbaric chamber. They go to like 4 x atmospheric. I used a closet for the first test. Took it up 10 cm water column air pressure above atmospheric. The walls creaked.

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:36 pm

go snoopy

.

yeah the human body is not a meat balloon. it has enough rigedity and strength to be able to hold pressure without bulging out. in otherwords, your external pressure measurement shouldn't be the outside air pressure. it should be the INTERNAL BODY pressure (not inside the lungs), inside the chest cavity between the lungs and your nipples

.
or in this case, the pressure inside the tissues of your neck. this 'neck pressure' changes at will, as neck muscles contract and expand.

so you can think of the sealed air passageways as the inside of a balloon if you want. just as long as you remember that 'outside that ballon' isn't outside the body, it's in the slightly elastic collapsable tissue surrounding the airpassageways.
so the human body is kinda like an unsealed inner soft balloon (your airpassageways) within an outer unsealed harder balloon (your skin). with the space inbetween the 2 seperate respective balloon walls filled with airtight sponge (this is the only SEALED space).

it's the collapsability of this SPONGE that is the issue here. increase the ambient air pressure and the sealed sponge material will shrink as the inner balloon is pushed outwards (it inflates), and the outer balloon pushes inwards (it deflates).
see? the sponge shrinks, it compresses.

the sponge is the tissue in your neck, it will compress before your neck ever bulges out. your physical outer skin on your neck is stronger than the skin inside the breathing pipe of your neck. so given equal pressure on both sides, the inner breating pipe skin will flex inwards before the outer neck skin ever flexes outwards.

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:37 pm

http://www.digitaldutch.com/unitconverter/

wow is 20cm really enough pressure to do anything?

that's only an increase of 0.019 ATM. that's probabaly the pressure equivalent of being 5cm under water.

(edit: cm/mm typo

)

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:55 pm

thank you.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:02 am

Roid CPAP uses 20 cm not 20 mm of water column air pressure. This pressure is not high enough for all patients. Dupers' wife uses 17 cm and he stated ,"until the blockage in your throat which is CAUSING the problem in the first place forces the air out your mouth. She's prescribed 17psi"(cm?)". Which is extremely high". I believe this happens because the kinetic force of the stream of air entering the airway not the static pressure bunches up the floppy tissue as it enters the airway until it is blocked. Duper, I didn't know this can happen. Thanks for the great field information. The "Sleep Sanctuary" only induces static pressure in the airway so patients like your wife would benefit from this treatment at a higher pressure also. This effect is most likely one of the reasons the limit is 20 cm(0.656168 feet of water,0.019357 ATM) with standard CPAP.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:44 am

Duper an alternate explanation is that 17 cm is just not enough pressure for your wife's condition now. People sometime need more pressure the longer they use CPAP; retitration might be necessary. I believe weight gain is one reason this happens.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:21 am

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with the much derided 'experts' here.

Raising the absolute pressure of your entire body will not yield any benefits to sleep apnea sufferers, as breathing is 100% a function of RELATIVE pressures.

Going back to high school biology and my scuba lessons...The lungs are inflated and deflated by the creation of a pressure differential between the interior of the thoracic cavity and the ambient pressure, by means of flexion and relaxation of the diaphragm.

The long and the short of it is that if you raise the ambient pressure, your body remains in equilibrium with the environment it is in once initial pressure differentials have been equalized (ears 'popped' any enclosed air spaces in the sinuses, etc). What this means is that the same difficulties which were inherent at 1 atmosphere will apply to breathing at 2 atmospheres, or 3 atmospheres.

It sounds to me that the idea is to pressurize the airway for obstructive sleep apnea sufferers, thus 'forcing' air into the lungs past whatever the obstruction is. If you pressurize the entire environment, as I have already said, the body is in equilibrium with the environment, and sleep apnea can still occur, as there is no additional pressure to push the breath of life past the obstruction.

However, there may be benefits to sleeping in a pressurized environment, in that breathing compressed air means that more oxygen molecules will be in the lungs during each respiratory cycle.

However, I must humbly submit my opinion that your idea will most probably not work for the proposed reasons, although other benefits may be obtained which may be of equal value to sufferers of 'normal' sleep apnea conditions.

Ultimately, the only way to verify this to your own satisfaction is through experimentation or consultation with appropriate experts who can verify the validity of your thinking or point out your mistakes.

I do admire your search for a viable alternate solution, however. It's my feeling you're actually on the right track, and that the correct path for you to be searching is likely to be some sort of a compromise between conventional CPAP and your idea.

Maybe something like a more comfortable version of an old-fashioned diver's helmet which can be slightly pressurized and easily slept in.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:29 am

WarAdvocat, please reread my postings because I think you missed what the treatment does. No air is "forced" past the obstruction. The obstruction is removed by the absolute static pressure in the airway holding, pressing the floppy tissue against the more ridge structure of the neck making the airway larger. OSA suffers just have floppier tissue that can touch together when relaxed and close the airway. Normal Atmospheric pressure works fine for people like you that don't have floppy tissue in their throats. If you snore you are at risk. I know it is not in the news but it should be general knowledge because of the danger. There have been stories on CNN about how dangerous being sleepy can be.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:10 pm

Mickey, perhaps you should post some diagrams and note what the various pressures are and how they relate to each other...

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:23 pm

I still can't wrap my mind around the increase of pressure created by your chamber not ultimately cancelling itself out and thus leaving you with only the temporary, localized increase in pressure created by inhaling (really the additional pressure of velocity keeping the tissue back) which is insufficient in your case...

But I could be just plain stubbornly dumb in this case. I deal with calculations involving static pressure and other air flow properties on a daily basis as a mechanical contractor...maybe the lower pressures and velocities you are dealing in have different behaviors I'm not familiar with and that's why I 'just don't get it'.

I just wonder though, isn't there a surgical remedy for this condition?
I see 45 year old women with the face, butt and breasts of 20 year olds thanks to the surgical trimming and tightening of loose flappy tissue...

Pipe Dream to Patent

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