Descent 1 1/2

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu May 18, 2017 2:47 am

It's queued up behind another level I'm working on. Thankfully that one is nearing completion though (it'll have to be, I only have about 190 cubes of space left...).

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu May 18, 2017 6:18 am

Sirius wrote:It's queued up behind another level I'm working on. Thankfully that one is nearing completion though (it'll have to be, I only have about 190 cubes of space left...).

Sweet

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Thu May 18, 2017 12:37 pm

Sirius wrote:My guess is that the hostage rescue count increments until you reach an end-level score screen, whichever that happens to be. How full rescue is determined is another interesting question - it might just trigger if you have hostages on board and there are none left in the level, but I couldn't be sure it doesn't count how many you have versus either the base or current level.

From playing through D1 and 2 on a livestream, I learned that a full rescue bonus occurs only if you have all hostages on board when the level ends. If you die at all before that, the hostages are lost, and so is your bonus!

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu May 18, 2017 2:58 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:
Sirius wrote:My guess is that the hostage rescue count increments until you reach an end-level score screen, whichever that happens to be. How full rescue is determined is another interesting question - it might just trigger if you have hostages on board and there are none left in the level, but I couldn't be sure it doesn't count how many you have versus either the base or current level.
From playing through D1 and 2 on a livestream, I learned that a full rescue bonus occurs only if you have all hostages on board when the level ends. If you die at all before that, the hostages are lost, and so is your bonus!

I know that, I was wondering how secret levels factor into this, if at all. Counterstrike does have some hostages in the secret level in Limefrost.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Thu May 18, 2017 3:22 pm

Well I know if you go through the level "normally" (so that it's always on countdown) you get the rescue bonus after you leave the secret level. Which is probably all Parallax had in mind since IIRC that was the only secret with hostages.
If you do the guided missile trick then I'm not sure. Relatively easy for someone of your caliber to test I imagine.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun May 21, 2017 2:09 am

Alter-Fox wrote:Well I know if you go through the level "normally" (so that it's always on countdown) you get the rescue bonus after you leave the secret level. Which is probably all Parallax had in mind since IIRC that was the only secret with hostages.
If you do the guided missile trick then I'm not sure. Relatively easy for someone of your caliber to test I imagine.

For some reason I totally can't be arsed to do it

(I like the word "arse" a lot, it's realy badarse)

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun May 21, 2017 1:15 pm

Did you ever make a decision on whether Spike can be introduced in Frosted Abyss?
I thought he fit that level pretty well especially if Fusion Hulk will be held off for so much later

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Sun May 21, 2017 4:01 pm

Screens from progress on level 48, currently codenamed "Reactor: Ohm" at this time.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun May 21, 2017 4:10 pm

I really like the texturing! Reminds me of my own N'tala, except there are reds instead of purples.

As for Spikes - yeah, maybe they can be introduced in that level, since the Omega Cannon they drop isn't really among the most powerful weapons in the game. Other than that, I just want the difficulty progression to be linear.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun May 21, 2017 6:49 pm

Well, difficulty wise there's definitely at least one thing using omega on you in that map anyway, and spike doesn't have homing flash missiles.

BTW, I realized today that I've been sitting on a pretty big collection of midi versions of the same NIN songs that were used as inspiration by many of the guys who wrote D1's and D2's midis. If we do end up with a level where none of the Descent midis seem to fit well enough I could try and find one in there. Some of them might need some adjustments but those shouldn't be difficult.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:11 am

Alter-Fox wrote:Well, difficulty wise there's definitely at least one thing using omega on you in that map anyway, and spike doesn't have homing flash missiles.

BTW, I realized today that I've been sitting on a pretty big collection of midi versions of the same NIN songs that were used as inspiration by many of the guys who wrote D1's and D2's midis. If we do end up with a level where none of the Descent midis seem to fit well enough I could try and find one in there. Some of them might need some adjustments but those shouldn't be difficult.

I wouldn't worry about that too much. There are so many midis to choose from that every level should have something that fits. Using the assets from the original two games is a big part of the nostalgia factor this mission needs to have.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:43 pm

Found a couple of things to fix/clean up in Coolyard...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwhA9 ... lBNQk9mdFE
Changes: A trap was added, a secret was made accessible, and a secret door was changed to become secret.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:23 am

And how exactly am I supposed to get that Super Laser if the wall closes the moment I approach it from any angle?

Oh right, I remembered now - you gotta be close by. Quite devilish, but deservedly so I'd say :3

Yeah, at least now there are no inaccessible cubes in the level, I'll take it from here. The changes that need to be made are relatively minor, mostly some slight texture variance improvement and trimming down some cubes from the zigzag portions.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:00 am

I can't help it. You can't keep me away forever

Charon Orbital Research
I tried to draw inspiration from what made D1 level 27 Charon Volatile Mine, while adding some original twists and turns to every aspect. There's even a couple cave-y segments.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:06 am

I tried to draw inspiration from what made D1 level 27 Charon Volatile Mine, while adding some original twists and turns to every aspect. There's even a couple cave-y segments.

Yeah, let's see:
- the hexagonal dropshaft
- the three keys all next to each other and visible from the hall
- the shape of the reactor room
- the two walled off goodie caches visible from a pink room

Don't you think the odds of two mines so similar being built on Charon are kinda low? (and no, don't say anything about serial or modular construction or I'm gonna lose it). At what point did I ever say that this project was meant to emulate the original game to this degree? Not even in Doom The Way Id Did did the mappers make such blatant homages to previous levels. This could maybe fly only as a reimagination of First Strike's levels, there's no way I'm including this level here. Not a chance.

And it's a bit of a shame, since except for your usual lazy winding tunnel abuse, it's reasonably well-made. You even used the descent.pig and the template for D1 monitors, which would have saved me the trouble of converting the level to Descent 2, had it actually counted. You're wasting my time, but more importantly, you're wasting yours.

LightWolf wrote:I can't help it. You can't keep me away forever

I've humored your shenanigans for long, but right now I'm 100% convinced you're a troll. This project has been going on for so long there's no way you shouldn't be familiar with the ins and outs of the design policy. It's weird that getting a rise out of me and the others is so much fun for you, taking into account the not inconsiderable amount of work you had to put into making this level. But after some levels you made that were passable in both design and gameplay it's hard for me to accept such creative regression as inadvertent, so I can only think you're doing this on purpose.

Please focus on your own projects from now on, seriously man.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:02 pm

Xfing wrote:
I've humored your shenanigans for long, but right now I'm 100% convinced you're a troll. This project has been going on for so long there's no way you shouldn't be familiar with the ins and outs of the design policy. It's weird that getting a rise out of me and the others is so much fun for you, taking into account the not inconsiderable amount of work you had to put into making this level. But after some levels you made that were passable in both design and gameplay it's hard for me to accept such creative regression as inadvertent, so I can only think you're doing this on purpose.

Please focus on your own projects from now on, seriously man.

Whatever level you had asked me to look at of his way back, I can't do it. I tried to make do with it, tried to change things up, but fundamentally, the level is awful. Without scrapping everything and starting again, I can't fix it.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:01 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:
I've humored your shenanigans for long, but right now I'm 100% convinced you're a troll. This project has been going on for so long there's no way you shouldn't be familiar with the ins and outs of the design policy. It's weird that getting a rise out of me and the others is so much fun for you, taking into account the not inconsiderable amount of work you had to put into making this level. But after some levels you made that were passable in both design and gameplay it's hard for me to accept such creative regression as inadvertent, so I can only think you're doing this on purpose.

Please focus on your own projects from now on, seriously man.
Whatever level you had asked me to look at of his way back, I can't do it. I tried to make do with it, tried to change things up, but fundamentally, the level is awful. Without scrapping everything and starting again, I can't fix it.

No harm done, we'll just retire the level and free up the spot. Thanks for trying anyway

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:51 am

On the off-chance you're just some kid that's genuinely desperate to fit in, LightWolf... I get it, and I've seen people like you around before, but this isn't how you go about it in a creative environment. If you really want your stuff accepted, you have to rise to meet Xfing's standards, not halfass it and hope that he lowers his standards. It's his project, after all, so you might as well focus on your own stuff if you don't want to conform to someone else's vision.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:06 am

Naphtha wrote: If you really want your stuff accepted, you have to rise to meet Xfing's standards, not halfass it and hope that he lowers his standards.

Not that my standards are particularly high or very creatively constraining, we've already got tons of very different maps ready to go, three of which are his. And I always ask the best mappers for their opinions anyway, so it's not like I make the decisions entirely on my own. But yeah, there is a certain level of effort I require, no shortcuts.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:48 am

Hold on, what was wrong with Beta Ceti Weapons Research?

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:38 am

LightWolf wrote:Hold on, what was wrong with Beta Ceti Weapons Research?

A lot of things. Boring texture work (that one section that was all dark green walls, floors and ceilings), long hallways to deadends, overall a very tight level, weird lighting work. Stuff just didn't fit. I was asked to look at it and see if I could make it better, and to be honest, I can't. Without scrapping a ton of the level and redoing it, I can't fix things, and at that point I might as well just build a Beta Ceti Weapons Research myself.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:56 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote:[I can't fix things, and at that point I might as well just build a Beta Ceti Weapons Research myself.

We'd be better served, honestly. Every level of yours more that we have is a boon

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:21 am

You mentioned that all-grass thing - that was changed in the update
I also don't see how texturing is so hard to fix

Where are the long dead end tunnels? (I guess we may have to define dead end here - if there is a required purpose to an area, in my book it's not a dead end)

Either way, if one single person continues the trend of being unable to fix anything, give someone else a shot. Don't just scrap an entire level off of one person's opinion.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:29 am

LightWolf wrote:You mentioned that all-grass thing - that was changed in the update
I also don't see how texturing is so hard to fix

Where are the long dead end tunnels? (I guess we may have to define dead end here - if there is a required purpose to an area, in my book it's not a dead end)

Either way, if one single person continues the trend of being unable to fix anything, give someone else a shot. Don't just scrap an entire level off of one person's opinion.

The level isn't up to par. I was being a bit lenient when I accepted it in the first place, but it really doesn't have enough to offer for the Vertigo portion. Not your best one either (that would be Coolyard Station I think). I honestly don't think Naphtha or AlterFox would disagree either.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:13 am

Xfing wrote:
We'd be better served, honestly. Every level of yours more that we have is a boon

I gotta finish my current Reactor Ohm level first before I can move on to something new! I'm also a bit creatively stuck on the level, so it may take me some time. I feel like some of the parts I have are not my best work, so it might take me a bit longer. I can post the WIP level at some point and see what people think.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:07 pm

LightWolf wrote:Either way, if one single person continues the trend of being unable to fix anything, give someone else a shot. Don't just scrap an entire level off of one person's opinion.

But you've continued making these half-hearted maps that are then left for someone else to fix. If the project leader tells you it's not good enough, shouldn't it fall to you to fix what he feels is wrong with your own work? That's how things are expected to work in a creative environment.

Xfing wrote:The level isn't up to par. I was being a bit lenient when I accepted it in the first place, but it really doesn't have enough to offer for the Vertigo portion. Not your best one either (that would be Coolyard Station I think). I honestly don't think Naphtha or AlterFox would disagree either.

Honestly, even the ones that got accepted feel like a very noticeable dip in quality. I agree that Coolyard Station turned out a bit better, but that really isn't saying much and to me, it only feels like it fits into the D2 section because of the Zeta Aquilae textures. You're not putting in enough effort to improve your work and it's shown.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:05 pm

Naphtha wrote:
Honestly, even the ones that got accepted feel like a very noticeable dip in quality.

Yeah, but these levels at least do give us something to work with. There will obviously be improvements and changes made when the time comes. I've already slightly reworked "Dacol Futyl Caverns" (a really passable level), and more are to follow, I just can't get around to it.

I agree that Coolyard Station turned out a bit better, but that really isn't saying much and to me, it only feels like it fits into the D2 section because of the Zeta Aquilae textures. You're not putting in enough effort to improve your work and it's shown.

In that level I'll be mixing up the textures a bit still (because the red is a bit overwhelming) and removing part of both the zigzag sections, as those are lazy cube copypasta and lengthen the journey needlessly. I might even add some secondary mapping, but I'd need a stroke of inspiration to do that

But I believe the levels we've got from him can be improved, with the exception of that Beta Ceti level, which left too much to be desired. Of course it's still better mapping than some of the most basic levels some designers make and even submit do dmb, but it's definitely not up to par.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:41 am

I feel like the zigzaggy sections can be replaced with larger cubes of similar dimensions. The level's kind of missing those open spaces I associate with D2, so that's just my suggestion for Coolyard.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:15 am

Naphtha wrote:I feel like the zigzaggy sections can be replaced with larger cubes of similar dimensions. The level's kind of missing those open spaces I associate with D2, so that's just my suggestion for Coolyard.

You mean expansion in all directions? Sure, noted. Still, I'd be taking out some portions of the zigzags, I feel they're needlessly long.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:46 am

Xfing wrote:
Naphtha wrote:I feel like the zigzaggy sections can be replaced with larger cubes of similar dimensions. The level's kind of missing those open spaces I associate with D2, so that's just my suggestion for Coolyard.
You mean expansion in all directions? Sure, noted. Still, I'd be taking out some portions of the zigzags, I feel they're needlessly long.

Oh no, I didn't just mean stretching the tunnels or anything. I definitely support taking the sections out, and it shouldn't be too hard to put in a more spacious area to replace the zigzags in each part of the level. I'm thinking areas that feel more like the yellow key room in Level 3 of Counterstrike, just to give an example.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:10 am

LightWolf wrote: I also don't see how texturing is so hard to fix

If it's not so hard, why didn't you address it in any of your levels? Your arguments don't make any sense.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:24 am

Trying to get back into the swing of level building for this project, and I think I'm going to take a D1 level next. Preferably Ganymede Outpost, since I have some ideas for getting started on it already.

I have some pieces for Secret Level 3, but I'm trying to remember how I wanted everything to fit together. That one might still take a while.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:36 pm

Slow and steady wins the race

I don't know what I'll be starting on next, especially since I should be writing my master's thesis (and I've been procrastinating horribly), but I think I'll convert, retexture and improve Lightwolf's Varuna level. I usually get sucked into work once I start, so the thing is to well, start

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:02 pm

Xfing wrote:especially since I should be writing my master's thesis (and I've been procrastinating horribly)

LOL... that sounds exactly like me in 2008. I think I was working on Anthology on the side, and... you know...

While I did finish said thesis (barely), I don't really recommend the approach I took to anyone. I was still figuring out the way I work best, and it turns out that's in an office away from distractions (like level editors). Also helped to have someone to report to regularly for accountability etc. For other people it may be different... not everyone is me

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:48 am

Sirius wrote:
Xfing wrote:especially since I should be writing my master's thesis (and I've been procrastinating horribly)
LOL... that sounds exactly like me in 2008. I think I was working on Anthology on the side, and... you know...

While I did finish said thesis (barely), I don't really recommend the approach I took to anyone. I was still figuring out the way I work best, and it turns out that's in an office away from distractions (like level editors). Also helped to have someone to report to regularly for accountability etc. For other people it may be different... not everyone is me

Yeah, my promoter has a very hands-off approach in regards to controlling my progress, which is pretty much the worst thing ever if you want results from me

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:56 am

Sirius wrote:
Xfing wrote:especially since I should be writing my master's thesis (and I've been procrastinating horribly)
LOL... that sounds exactly like me in 2008. I think I was working on Anthology on the side, and... you know...

While I did finish said thesis (barely), I don't really recommend the approach I took to anyone. I was still figuring out the way I work best, and it turns out that's in an office away from distractions (like level editors). Also helped to have someone to report to regularly for accountability etc. For other people it may be different... not everyone is me

Just write 5 letters to ex-lovers, give them to a friend, and tell them to mail one for every deadline you miss

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:57 pm

Careful application of metaphoric self-flagellation gets everything done.

I have a couple rooms in the works but I don't know if the final map is going to end up too big for Descent 2 standard. I'd like to have space for some decent-sized secrets this time.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:33 pm

Alter-Fox wrote:Careful application of metaphoric self-flagellation gets everything done.

I have a couple rooms in the works but I don't know if the final map is going to end up too big for Descent 2 standard. I'd like to have space for some decent-sized secrets this time.

Don't worry too much about "standards", your only constraint is 900 cubes. No such thing as "too large for D2" otherwise. I think that generally texture schemes are more important than geometry in determining whether a level fits D1, D2 or Vertigo, though obviously some extreme exaggerations such as Limefrost Spiral geometry for a Solar System level could push the authenticity parameter a bit beyond the acceptable range

That said, remember said range is considerably wider than in the original games. This is not quite Descent The Way Parallax Did.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:39 pm

You've told me all that. I just meant bigger than the magic 900.
That's not even counting whether I decide to build this for Overload instead of D2.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:51 pm

Just realized how close we are to the end of Counterstrike.
And here's my contribution: (just kidding

)