Is violence ever acceptable as a counter to hate?

[Tunnelcat]

Violent protests have happened all through our country's history. The civil rights and Vietnam protests were a good example. Today, the left is blaming the right and the right is blaming the left, with President Trump showing an extreme lack of leadership during the whole mess, for creating the current spate of violent hate-filled white nationalist rallies going on around the country. Since this topic seems to be taking over the ImageDump thread, I'm starting a separate one now and my question for everyone is, does violence create more violence at these rallies, dividing us even further as a people, or are peaceful protests the best way to respond to this type of evil hate and perhaps even create lasting change for the better in the long run for all of us?

This is a sample at what's currently enraging the extreme left, or Antifa, and causing them to respond with violent tactics whenever they encounter White Supremacists and Nazis marching in rallies as they goad on anyone who gets in their faces. For example, this is the type of vile stuff that was uttered during that White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville, VA.

From the Vice.com youtube channel. This is what many on the right call "free speech".



This is an argument for and against the use of violence in response to what many Americans consider evil on this morning's an NBC Meet the Press. One of these guys is Mark Bray, the author of the book: Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook.

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/v ... 8526659570

[Spidey]

NO...love is the only cure for hate.

[Tunnelcat]

You mean like this?

[Tunnelcat]

Violence begets violence? Everyone take a look at the incident in the Charlottesville rally from an angle not widely shown on the national news and you be the judge. Take a look what happens right before the guy driving the car steps on the gas. One counter protestor takes a swing at the car and clearly hits it. I don't know if he's using a lead pipe or not, but does that detail matter in the grand scheme of things? The area is already a powder keg waiting to go off. The guy took a seemingly unprovoked swing at a slowly moving car, for what? The driver wasn't displaying anything racist or hateful in his windows as far as I can tell from all the videos I've seen of this thing, even though it's been revealed that he's a Hitler fanatic and racist. He could've flipped people off as he drove by, which would've been the stupidest thing to do on earth at that point, but that's not been indicated by any of the witnesses. It's right after the car was hit by this protestor that it accelerates and veers to the right, hitting the people in front. Then look at what happens right after the car hit those people. An angry mob closes in to attack the car and the driver reverses in an apparent panic. So did the guy first panic after his car was initially hit by that protester and take off in reaction, or did he drive there in the first place with the intention of setting himself up as a martyr by driving through a crowd of counter protestors hoping for a violent reaction?

[Spidey]

Yea, if I were planning to use a vehicle to run over some people, I would definitely grab my nice street car and not my old rusty diesel pickup…and of course I would creep up on them slowly and not get a good running start.

[Ferno]

No TC.

the guy driving the car came in with intent to harm.

I could see your point if the guy who swung the pipe was in front of the car, but he was clearly behind it.

[Tunnelcat]

Yea, if I were planning to use a vehicle to run over some people, I would definitely grab my nice street car and not my old rusty diesel pickup…and of course I would creep up on them slowly and not get a good running start.

That's just it. Why did he creep down the street like that, in his really nice car as you indicated, right through a crowd of very agitated counter protestors? That's nuts if anyone wants to keep their car from getting damaged and it just doesn't make any rational sense. What we do know is that he originally drove down to Charlottesville to join the Alt-Right rally and he had to know that the people on that street where he was driving were counter protestors (they did have signs indicating that) who were very, very worked up and very likely to strike his car with an object. Either he's an absolute complete idiot, or he intended to ram people from the start, the condition of his car be damned, and all he needed was the provocation of some bone-headed lefty protestor striking his car to turn himself into some sort of Nazi hero.

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/2 ... cist-group

Ferno, you know that the protestor's hit made a very load noise inside the car, so the driver didn't have to see it hear it. Don't you think that the noise may have made the driver panic, just a little? And before you stomp on me, I also find it very unlikely that a loud noise like that would have made him freak out and step on the gas and accidentally run over a bunch of people he could clearly see in front of him. If he'd been rational, he would have started backing up slowly in order to get out of the situation. Maybe when he eventually backed up at high speed in a effort to escape the angry mob after he hit all those people, THAT was due to self preservation, but I'm betting that original intention for driving down that street was to do something provocative.

[Ferno]

Usually, a rational person simply stops when they hear a thump like that, because the first thought that usually goes through a persons' head in a situation like that would be "★■◆● did I hit someone?"

I'd consider him being scared a likely reaction had he stopped and reversed. But I'm deferring to the investigators on this sort of thing because of two reasons. 1) they're paid to look into stuff like this and 2) they've been doing it for years and they're extremely good at it.

Case in point

[Nightshade]

Antifa is doing the nazis a favor by being violent.

[Spidey]

So no, I don’t defend Nazis, so don’t even go there…but there is definitely something wrong with this story.

Last night I see this guy Gilmore on the national news saying basically that he witnessed the car speed down 4th street and plow into the crowd.

But we have this image where the car is stationary in front of the crowd, before moving forward and striking the crowd.

So yea, there is something wrong here and after what I saw last night, I have to go with media conspiracy.

[callmeslick]

the local coverage in VA had a rather long video. He pauses, sort of as if puzzled at the crowd in the street in front. Then, he gunned the car. Hit folks, stopped, pulled forward, and then put it into reverse. Don't quite know what is being asserted, but the idea that loon didn't kill folks with his car would be ludicrous.
At any rate, I do not think violence is acceptable to most levels of hate, unless such forces one into a life or death choice. On the other hand, arrest and denial of bail to bragging little weenies with a gun collection and stuff??
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/23/us/urgent ... urrenders/


have fun, son, in the Virginia corrections system.

[Tunnelcat]

Usually, a rational person simply stops when they hear a thump like that, because the first thought that usually goes through a persons' head in a situation like that would be "★■◆● did I hit someone?"

I'd consider him being scared a likely reaction had he stopped and reversed. But I'm deferring to the investigators on this sort of thing because of two reasons. 1) they're paid to look into stuff like this and 2) they've been doing it for years and they're extremely good at it.

Case in point

I have to agree as well.

On a related item, it looks like all this violence in the name of free speech between right and the left factions in Charlottesville, has caused the ACLU to have a crisis of faith.

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/20/16167870/ ... ottesville

The ACLU Needs to Rethink Free Speech"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opin ... ville.html

[Top Gun]

So no, I don’t defend Nazis, so don’t even go there…but there is definitely something wrong with this story.

Last night I see this guy Gilmore on the national news saying basically that he witnessed the car speed down 4th street and plow into the crowd.

But we have this image where the car is stationary in front of the crowd, before moving forward and striking the crowd.

So yea, there is something wrong here and after what I saw last night, I have to go with media conspiracy.

You can't be real.

[Spidey]

Well I watched a guy lie right through his teeth, on a show I used to trust, without being challenged.

I'm not disputing that the Nazi ran down some people...all I'm saying is we are not getting the complete truth here.

Maybe the exact details don't matter to some, but I see it as a problem.

[Ferno]

Not getting the complete truth? What do you think is missing? His upbringing? His friends opinions? Or how well he did in school?

Guy was hateful, got into his car, ran people down because he couldn't control himself. Case closed.

[Top Gun]

It doesn't matter if someone hit his car first. In no universe is RUNNING OVER A CROWD WITH A ★■◆●ing CAR a remotely-justifiable action.

[Spidey]

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

[Ferno]

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

coming from the "you don't understand what i'm saying" man, that's laughable. You should probably not strawman so much.

[callmeslick]

what a sorry-ass denial of facts, Spidey. That's all I can say.

[Spidey]

What facts did I deny?

[callmeslick]

well, it sure SOUNDS as if you are trying to place suspicion on the rather clear facts that a White Supremacist chose to run over a bunch of folks. I guess I missed your point past that.

[Tunnelcat]

So no, I don’t defend Nazis, so don’t even go there…but there is definitely something wrong with this story.

Last night I see this guy Gilmore on the national news saying basically that he witnessed the car speed down 4th street and plow into the crowd.

But we have this image where the car is stationary in front of the crowd, before moving forward and striking the crowd.

So yea, there is something wrong here and after what I saw last night, I have to go with media conspiracy.

Spidey, I found this footage of the car right before he hit the protestors and it appears to be in real time because you can hear the guy talk after the accident and his voice is normal as he yells "GO, GO, GO" when the car reverses direction. The Camaro driver is NOT traveling slowly as I first thought. He's moving at a pretty good clip, far faster than he should be with that many people walking in the street directly ahead of him. He also knew that these were counter protestors since many had signs. You can even hear his tires make a screeching noise just as he bounces over what appears to be a drainage dip in the intersection (you can see it in the foreground the youtube still before you play the video) to the right of the cameraman. I now even more convinced that this act was intentional.

[Spidey]

All I can say about that video is this…

I wouldn’t want to have to decide a person’s fate based on it.

And whoever took that video should be slapped upside the head…never…never…take the camera off the action.

......

Also I want to add this...

The still shot of the car is probably very misleading, because I don't have a lot of experience with these new cameras, and I would expect to see motion blur...and apparently the new digital cameras are very fast, and produce little blur, also as I looked at the crowd, I didn't see the proper panic from a speeding car coming at them...also misleading I guess.

[Tunnelcat]

It appears from aerial drone footage that most of the people he hit weren't looking in the direction the car came from (they were occupied by something or those other cars in the next block down) and thus weren't expecting it. I did hear someone yell "★■◆●" at one point after the car went by. What I was pointing out in that still is that little rain drainage dip in the intersection. The driver had to be traveling at a pretty good clip to bounce off enough for his tires to make a short screech noise. And yeah, most people are pretty lousy videographers. I don't know how many videos I've seen where some idiot jerked the camera up or down just as something important happened, missing the money shot.

[Spidey]

No, the still in the other video you posted, where the car is being hit by the pipe.