A Few Questions about Textures

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:06 pm

Hello everybody!

First, I had to make a new username because I forgot my password, and the email I used to create the account was no longer usable so I couldn't reset it! I used to be Mike8887123 (no problem because 8887123 was pretty meaningless). I am still working on my levels and enjoying it. Progress is slow, and there is a lot of work.

Question:
I'm using DLE 1.11.90, and I want to edit some screens (animated textures) with the pixil editor (if you click "edit" under the texture tab). The problem is that I can't find all of the frames for the screen. I tried checking "show frames," but it only works for door textures. It only shows me the first frame for all non-door animated textures (such as screens, wall strips, red reactor stuff, matcen veins, switch panels, etc). How do I edit all frames for these non-door textures?

Thanks guys

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:02 pm

Anybody?

Here's another question I want to put out there:

Experimenting around, I took a TEW texture (not the whole POG file) and loaded it into my own level. The way I did this was by opening the TEW level in DLE, opening the pixel/texture editor, clicking "save", and then loading that texture into my own level replacing an unused texture slot. This resulted in a new texture taking the spot of another in my level.

My question is do I have to use the same PIG file the TEW level uses?

Thanks!

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:34 am

TSXMike wrote:I'm using DLE 1.11.90, and I want to edit some screens (animated textures) with the pixil editor (if you click "edit" under the texture tab). The problem is that I can't find all of the frames for the screen. I tried checking "show frames," but it only works for door textures. It only shows me the first frame for all non-door animated textures (such as screens, wall strips, red reactor stuff, matcen veins, switch panels, etc). How do I edit all frames for these non-door textures?

Yeah, this is exactly the problem I wrote the texture editor in 1.12.* to solve. I would recommend using that unless you have a strong need not to.

TSXMike wrote:My question is do I have to use the same PIG file the TEW level uses?

It's preferable, but not required. Using the same PIG file (palette, to be precise) means the texture appears the same as it did in that level. If you're using a different PIG, I believe DLE will recolor the texture to use the closest colors it can find in the different PIG's palette. It might look OK but there will usually be some level of quality loss.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:15 pm

Got it! Thanks Sirius

Its good to know the frames thing is just a version issue.

I've been trying to get 1.12, but I can't seem to download it right now (from here: http://www.descent2.de/files/dle-1.12.27.7z). When I right click, I don't see the 'save target as' selection. I'll try when I get home on my good computer.

Thanks much!

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:03 am

Errr... that's a mistake on the website, apparently. Try http://www.descent2.de/files/dle-1.12.28.7z

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:34 pm

Got it! I am editing all slides now, THANKS

Always a great help!

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:54 pm

Hey there,

I almost got it to work except my modified animated texture is not animated after being exported/imported to another level. Then I realized I have to upload each frame one by one. So how do I add frames to the list for a non-animated texture that is being replaced? Or can I only add animated textures to slots that are already animated textures? Know what I mean?

Thanks

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:55 am

If your question is what I think it is - the number of frames in an animated texture is governed by... descent2.ham I think. You can't add or remove them with a .POG (which is what DLE is working with) - only replace the frames that already exist. So you will probably need to look for a texture with the same number of frames as your custom texture, and use that in your level.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:42 am

Sirius wrote:If your question is what I think it is - the number of frames in an animated texture is governed by... descent2.ham I think. You can't add or remove them with a .POG (which is what DLE is working with) - only replace the frames that already exist. So you will probably need to look for a texture with the same number of frames as your custom texture, and use that in your level.

That is correct. There is no way to manipulate the number of frames of textures. Even HAXMed32, a tool for editing descent2.ham (after some tweaks no less) doesn't let you do quite as much, if I remember correctly. I remember making a custom pog meant to be reminescent of Descent 1 - replacing all of D2's monitors with ones from D1 required a lot of forethought, since the frame count practically never matched perfectly. So I used monitors that either contained a multiple of the frames of the D1 one and just duplicated certain frames, or truncated some frames I thought weren't as important in other ones.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:00 pm

Thanks you guys, that clears it up.

So this just means I'll have to figure what can be done with each particular level of mine. I guess as long as I'm not going to go pog wild with textures, then I should be okay. My idea - I wanted to have blue, yellow, and red reactor arrows (the wall strips) to put in the areas in which you will find those keys. And in another level, I want to do the same with the green wall strip with the fluttery stuff. Not a huge functional part of the level, but just aesthetics and uniqueness.

Another idea: I have white fatty jr's in my one system, so I wanted to modify the screens that show red fatty in those levels to render a white fatty instead of a red one. And I do have brown D1 spiders that spawn brown mini-spiders in my 1st system. If I could make the screens reflect my robot mods per system, then it would make the player stop and think for a second.

I know how to do it now! My mission set will probably take me another 5 years, but its comin!

Fun stuff! Thanks guys for being descent fanatics.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:32 pm

Hey, I have 2 questions after doing some editing...

1) I used the white "transparent" at the bottom left in the pixel editor, and its still not transparent when played. How do I make something transparent? I accidentally painted over a transparent part, and couldn't undo.

2) Is there software that changes all pixels to another if you specify which color to change which color to? This would avoid editing by hand.

Thanks

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:57 am

1. Just those pixels aren't transparent, or the whole texture?

2. Image/photo editing software will do this... the most famous one is Photoshop, but it's probably still expensive. The most powerful free alternative is probably GIMP, though its interface is challenging to learn (seems to be a common problem with FOSS...). Paint.NET is also popular but I haven't personally used it and can't vouch for how well it handles palettes/indexed color images.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:22 pm

If you have software to convert to 256-color bitmaps, Game Maker's sprite editor is quite powerful. IIRC it only saves PNGs though.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:09 pm

Yeah, only editing the texture in indexed color mode using the same 256 color palette that the PIG you're making the level in is using will do you any good. Otherwise you're going to get a distorted texture upon import. Though I dunno, maybe doing it in RGB will do too, but any color you use that's not in the palette will use the closest approximation.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:10 pm

Okay,

Sirius, the answer to #1 is only the pixels are not transparent - not the whole frame. I just reverted the texture and redid it. Its just that it may help me in the future to know how if I accidentally paint over transparency again and can't undo it.

What is indexed color mode?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:49 pm

TSXMike wrote:
What is indexed color mode?

It's a color rendering mode whereby a file uses its own palette of colors, usually 255 colors. The palette can differ from file to file, it can even be generated based on the original RGB image to make the image in indexed mode look the closest possible to the original.

The PCX files used in Descent use such a mode, as Descent refuses to load files in RGB color mode.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:16 am

OK, if it's individual pixels it's not the transparency flag... it must just be using the wrong color...

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:02 am

Sirius wrote:OK, if it's individual pixels it's not the transparency flag... it must just be using the wrong color...

That's exactly right. You always need to make sure that the palette for your PCX file has room for the traditional green briefing text color, otherwise the closest approximation will be used. The color is 00ff00, if memory serves.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:41 pm

One question I just ran into-- Is it possible to change the blowing and blown textures for screens? Say I replace one screen texture with another that is differently shaped. When I blow it out, the blown out texture looks like the old screen still. The sound is also an issue - after replacing a blow-outable texture with another, the sound made when blowing it out will still be the old texture. I'm sure you guys know what I mean. Is this editable?

Thanks!

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:33 pm

Oh wait, I get it.. I would have to change the blowing/blown textures separately so that they all match.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:38 pm

TSXMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:33 pm Oh wait, I get it.. I would have to change the blowing/blown textures separately so that they all match.

That's what I did for "template" POG files for D1-style mines, replaced all the d2 monitors frame by frame with their D1 counterparts. Of course the number of frames dind't always match, so I had to either skip or duplicate some frames, same of course goes for the blown and exit sequence versions.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:09 pm

Thanks everybody for your help.

I'm not sure if I should start a new thread, but can someone tell me quickly what xcf to bmp conversion program is recommended? A link would be optimal.

I have just learned how to change each color to another specified color in GIMP. Now I have an xcf file that I don't know what to do with except for to convert it to bmp and then import to DLE. GIMP is excellent by the way

Thanks!

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 pm

Isn't XCF a GIMP format? If so, GIMP would be the tool for the job - it'll have an option to export to BMP.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:55 pm

I can confirm this. GIMP does let you save to most popular formats that are in use today. The only thing that makes it slightly counter-intuitive is the fact that it requires you to use the "export" option further down on the list in order to do so. "Save as" always saves to GIMP's native xcf format.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:47 pm

Excellent, thank you! But now my problem is that DLE's palette doesn't match my BMP, so it looks WAY off after import to DLE. Everything looked great up until import to DLE. I am using fire.pig for a gray texture that I turned red.

So how do you know, for ex, which red to pick in GIMP so that it will be close enough to the DLE palette to look mostly the same? I know its a matter of choosing the same or close color when in GIMP. And I know colors are represented by data. Its just that I don't know enough about this type of data to choose a workable color. How do you guys handle this?

Thanks again,

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:57 pm

Note: I just noticed that even colors I didn't modify in the file that are original to DLE are not showing up as the same color after the export/mod/import process with GIMP. So I'm guessing GIMP is using a slight variant of the colors I export from DLE. Just thought I'd mention this.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:18 pm

It would probably be best to convert your textures to inexed mode BMPs, and as the palette to choose the very same palette that fire.pig for example has. GIMP supports importing files and making palettes out of them, so you should be fine, and work within the constraints of the palette afterwards.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:21 pm

Ah, I knew it was the indexed vs RGB thing. Okay, thanks much - I will try this out in GIMP. I may have to ask how later after trying. Do you guys here know how to use GIMP enough for me ask about it, or should I ask on a GIMP forum? Either way, let me try first.

Thanks again.

Background: just to let you know my plan - I want to make a texture like the cobblestone (or whatever its called, like rock149 or rock080) that is dark gray/characole with lava in the cracks. And optimally it should be breathing lava, so it would be animated. So far, I've imported an image I found on the web as an alternative to GIMPing one, but its not animated. It should suffice. But I still plan to make my own.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:03 am

I tried importing a PIG file to gimp, and it gave me an "unknown type of palette file" error. Does DLE convert pig to bmp, or is there some other way?

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:56 pm

PIGs store quite a few BMPs...
You need another program to extract the BMPs. DTX works fine if your system is old enough to handle it.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:43 pm

DLE does allow you to bulk-export textures through the custom texture manager - it will always save them to .BMP but if that's what you want...

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:51 am

LightWolf, I looked for DTX. Can you explain more so I know when I find it? Or is there a link? Secondly, will DTX work on Windows7 or XP?

Sirius, I mean I need to import the whole palette to GIMP so that it uses the same colors as a specific DLE palette. Or are you saying I can import a DLE texture to GIMP and use its colors? Because that would work for me.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:12 am

Ah... yes it's probably easiest to do that from one of the BMPs since they store palette information. Since it's a pain to find anything in GIMP, here are the steps

Word of warning - I have GIMP 2.8.10 which is several years old, so it's possible they've changed the layout since.

1. Open the .bmp file (thankfully this is easy)
2. Open the palette dialog: Windows -> Dockable Dialogs -> Palettes
3. Open the import palette dialog: "Configure this tab" button on Palettes dialog (at top-right - no text but it has a tooltip) -> Palettes Menu -> Import Palette...
4. Select the image you have open as the source, and click "Import"
You should now see the image's palette in the Palettes list. (Which you can dock to one of the other windows if you find that less annoying)

To make an existing RGB image use that palette:
1. Image -> Mode -> Indexed...
2. Pick "Use custom palette" and select the one you just created
3. Uncheck "Remove unused colors from colormap". You probably want to set "Color dithering" to "None" as well; I've never found dithering works particularly well with Descent textures. If the palette is a little sparse around certain hues I've had better luck color shifting the image before indexing it.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:58 pm

I think I understand what you mean Sirius. Just to be clear, you're saying I can import a bmp file into GIMP and then use its colors to edit another imported texture. I am going to experiment around. Thanks everybody!

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:29 am

Yes. You'll want to load up the .PIG whose palette you want to use in DLE first (it's in the drop-down list at the bottom of the custom texture manager), since the textures are saved using the current palette.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:03 pm

I just got it to work for one texture, but I think I got the handle on this. I'm not sure if this is what fixed it, but in the export dialog, I made sure the "Run-Length Encoded" was unchecked (can't remember what it was default), and I made sure the "Do not write color space information" box was checked.

Either that or it was a glitch - I noticed an import glitch in GIMP on another occasion where the image was distorted for no reason, so maybe it was just a matter of trying agian. Either way great job all of you! Thanks

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:19 am

So I am making a lot of new textures for a specific system of levels that have a common theme. Everything is great, and I am making new doors (which is one reason I learned how to work with animated textures). And its thanks to your help!

Anyway, one little problem I've run into with Alien1 palette: the transparency is failing but only for certain images, even when I am sure I am using the correct palette when exporting, when importing, and when editing/playing the level. Let me explain in a separate paragraph below:

I import a texture to GIMP. I move parts of the image that I've decided are to be moving door parts. Then I fill in the empty spots with the transparency (in Alien1 palette, its the blue at the bottom right). Then I notice that the color picker tool still selects the OTHER blue higher up in the palette even though I clearly used the transparency blue at the bottom right (and it appears blue in-game but I'm able to fly through). So I figured I would highlight that spot again and fill it with the correct blue. But the color picker tool still goes back to the wrong blue. No matter what I do, it will not let me use the transparency. Its like GIMP can't differentiate between the transparency and non-transparency blues (they look the same to the eye). The same thing happens with the transparency white. And it only happens with this one image. I've tried re-doing the entire door again, but it will not budge. I even edited the palette and changed the wrong blue to green to see if GIMP would forget about that blue, but it still won't keep the transparency color I'm telling it to use. I also noticed that the color picker tool will not recognize some of the browns sometimes as if the color in the image is not in the palette - even though the entire picture was made with this palette.

Has anybody experienced anything like this?

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:58 am

Ok, I just re-did it. I'm sorry to have been confused, and sorry for having 3 posts in a row. But I realized that I imported the original texture from groupa palette. I edited it and used it in alien1 as a non-animated texture recolored with alien1 colors. This is why I thought I originally exported it from alien1. So this explains the non-transparent blue.

However, here's another glitch. It opens fine, but the transparent part turns black only while its closing.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:17 am

GroupA, Water and Fire have white as its transparent color, while the remaining palettes have other colors as transparent. Every frame needs to contain proper transparency and see-through colors for any given palette in order to display properly. We had some issues of this kind when making the D1 palette for D2, you might wanna check out that thread for some advice.

TSXMike · Post by **TSXMike** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:42 pm

I can't figure out why I'm getting black transparency on a closed wall when I use 2 transparent textures. No mods or pogs here, and I've done it before. For some reason, its not working suddenly. I'm trying to put a fence as primary, and metal bars as secondary. Using 1.11.90. I've tried it in 1.11.69, 1.11.81, 1.11.90, and 1.12.28 just to see if it was a version issue, and its not working in any. Again the oddest part is that I've done it before, and I just ran that level to make sure, and it works there. Very odd.

Any ideas?