Pipe Dream to Patent

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:45 pm

Will,

I think the main thing to understand is that there are chambers in the body that will compress under pressure, and others that are rigid and therefore won't compress.

From what Mickey1 is saying, I'd assume that the obstructions compress under pressure, but that the neck is rigid.

Imagine that you had an open-ended pipe with some balloons taped to the inside, such that they bumped up against each other and obstructed airflow. If you increase the pressure of the outside air, either locally (at one end of the pipe) or globally (in the room where the end of the pipe is), the balloons will compress due to the greater pressure, but the pipe will remain the same size, meaning that the airflow won't be obstructed nearly as much.

Judging from the descriptions given here, this sounds like a reasonable model for the system. Mickey1, is this fair?

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:35 pm

Will, they cut a hole in your throat to let air in. They also cut stuff out of the throat to make the opening bigger. They burn the lining of your throat to make it stiffer. I would rather sleep in a box. Actually inhaling creates lower pressure in the airway causing the apnea event; vacuum effect of diaphragm. I know it sucks:)

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:45 pm

Lothar, your description is right on the mark. I will use this analogy in the future. Well DBBers do you think this is what will happen?

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:25 pm

Aha!!
That works for my tiny mind.
I couldn't fathom internal chambers that wouldn't eventually equalize to the external pressure but if that's not the case then obviously I was wrong to doubt you!

Sounds like the surgical solution is still in the "practicing" medicine phase. good luck on the chamber!

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:35 pm

for many sleep apnea patients, it would be far easier to get the surgery that goes in and clears the airway of the obstruction. I mean heck, if you're going to cut yur throat open anyways....

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:59 pm

I would rather sleep in an air-conditioned box.
Mobius what do you think now?

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:53 am

good illustration lothar

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:07 am

OK so to help me get my mind wrapped around this by another analogy:

You're likening the 'floppy tissues' to a full balloon at 1 Atmosphere with a volume of 1 cubic meter. If you increase the pressure by 20% your balloon shrinks in proportion the the increase of pressure, thus leaving you with a balloon which is 80 cubic centimeters? Or by analogy, 'floppy tissues' which have shrunk enough to allow airflow anyhow.

I realize this analogy isn't rigorous etc, but is that the basic concept?

If so your idea sounds workable. However, your contention that the floppy tissues are pressed against the rigid structure of the trachea/neck would seem to indicate to me that there is an element of pressure differential at work here, possibly invalidating or modifying your concept, and therefore additional research/studies/trials would be necessary to determine the viability of your treatment method.

Build one and see how it works

I'm definately not familiar enough with the mechanics of the condition (obstructive sleep apnea) to have an opinion other than that, and unfortunately the press of time today leaves me with no opportunity to research the condition and treatment methodologies and mechanics in order to comment further.

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:25 am

hehe, that tech speak sounded pretty forced there.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:36 am

May the forced be with us.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:55 am

your contention that the floppy tissues are pressed against the rigid structure of the trachea/neck would seem to indicate to me that there is an element of pressure differential at work here

It's not pressure differential. It's just absolute pressure.

The floppy tissues have constant internal mass. When the absolute pressure increases (outside), they increase in pressure (internally) to match, meaning they decrease in volume. It's the volume reduction that's important -- the compression is what makes all of this work.

In particular, think of them like those long skinny balloons clowns use to make balloon animals... if you blew one of those up just enough to make it rigid, and then you put it in a higher pressure environment (or let just a little air out), it would suddenly become very floppy -- just a tiny bit of volume loss will make all the difference.

The floppy tissues are attached directly to the edges of the trachea, so when they compress, they're naturally going to end up pressed up against the edges -- which is exactly where you want them.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:03 am

roid: You're mistaking rigid formalism with tech talk

Rigid formalism ALWAYS comes across stilted. In fact that's the point!

Lothar: I'm still not convinced of that contention for a number of reasons, most of which are difficult to elaborate without visual metaphor. What part of the 'floppy tissue' compresses, and why would it stay compressed in a higher pressure environment. Are there internal trapped air-spaces which do not exchange gas with the rest of the body?

Anyhow, all I'm saying is verify the treatment before getting your hopes up Mickey! Build one and see how it works.

Mickey1 · Post by **Mickey1** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:50 am

WarAdvocat, CPAP does work for most people most of the time by holding open the airway with air pressure. My question is does the pressurized Sleep Sanctuary effect the airway the same as a CPAP system? Local vs. Global thanks Lothar. I did the rough work on the chamber with 3DS last night. I would post it but my web site is not letting me add more pictures. Oh, I am just an absolute beginner and parametric is out of my league.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/pressure.html

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:36 pm

WarAdvocat wrote:What part of the 'floppy tissue' compresses, and why would it stay compressed in a higher pressure environment. Are there internal trapped air-spaces which do not exchange gas with the rest of the body?

I don't know, though I'd imagine that there are internal trapped airspaces within the body. This is why I keep saying Mickey1 should give us more details and some pictures. I just happen to think it's more productive to ask questions about what the scenario might be like than to simply say "I'm not convinced" and leave it at that.

Anyhow, all I'm saying is verify the treatment before getting your hopes up Mickey! Build one and see how it works.

Isn't that what the thread started with? :)

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:01 pm

Mickey1 wrote:WarAdvocat, CPAP does work for most people most of the time by holding open the airway with air pressure. My question is does the pressurized Sleep Sanctuary effect the airway the same as a CPAP system? Local vs. Global thanks Lothar. I did the rough work on the chamber with 3DS last night. I would post it but my web site is not letting me add more pictures. Oh, I am just an absolute beginner and parametric is out of my league.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/pressure.html

Wait a minute. A cpap isn't about keeping pressure consistant, it elevates the O2 level in your blood stream. Sleep apnea causes oxygen deprivation. The pressure caused/created by a cpap isn't enought to worry about anything. Sleep apnea isn't necessarily an airway blockage; it IS the stopping of breath while sleeping. Whether it's by a blockage or you just stop due some odd brain function or other reasons. Snoring is not speel apnea.