Descent 1 1/2

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm

You can make the invulnerability a bit less convenient.
Personally I feel bosses should be a noticeable difficulty spike right at the end of the level. D1L7 definitely captured this, while D2L4 just had a big robot with more health that just happens to teleport and start the countdown.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:36 pm

Add an extra cloak somewhere nearby just in case. Stuff tends to go wrong in this game, and with Overload, D:U, and D1 and 2 back on GOG it's just possible we'll get new people who haven't played the game before coming to us. We've already got a few new folks on the forum as designers.
I'm thinking of D1 level 7 as well which had the extra cloak and invuln near the boss room but not in it.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:58 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:36 pm Add an extra cloak somewhere nearby just in case. Stuff tends to go wrong in this game, and with Overload, D:U, and D1 and 2 back on GOG it's just possible we'll get new people who haven't played the game before coming to us. We've already got a few new folks on the forum as designers.
I'm thinking of D1 level 7 as well which had the extra cloak and invuln near the boss room but not in it.

I agree, an invulnerability in plain sight just waiting to be picked up is a nice choice, since the player needs foresight in order not to waste it, same goes for cloaks. Picking those up at just the right moment is part of the strategic thinking for the level

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:27 am

And it prevents you from using it for the full 30 seconds.

AlexanderBorisov · Post by **AlexanderBorisov** » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:00 am

LightWolf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm You can make the invulnerability a bit less convenient.
Personally I feel bosses should be a noticeable difficulty spike right at the end of the level. D1L7 definitely captured this, while D2L4 just had a big robot with more health that just happens to teleport and start the countdown.

On Insane (and I think even Ace) difficulty the situation is reversed - D1L7 boss is just a big immobile target (scary looking, yes!), it simply has no chance to hit you if you are always moving, unless it teleports on your head. Which only happened once many times I played this level (on Insane skill). And D2 L4 boss, it is so dangerous that you simply cannot stay in the boss room, unless you use the invulnerability from the secret level. Probably you can circle it with the trichording, but should be very hard to do. But I should say regarding the athmospere D1 L7 boss fight is very well arranged and scary - much better than D2 L4. The sound of entering the boss room definitely sends shivers up your spine... The invulnerability is barely enough to destroy the boss minions (that are real danger there).

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:23 pm

Yeah, the D1L7 boss fight is all about the presentation, the boss is actually harmless to any half-decent pilot and requires no power-ups to beat (they are for his entourage). The D2L4 is not as intimidating, but is actually harder to beat since he has homing missiles, not to mention flash ones too.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:56 pm

So, as far as I can tell, you haven't mandated which levels should have secret exits... it's probably going to be more restrictive in D1 since the mapping was one-to-one there, but most D2 secret levels had two. I'm not sure what your plan is for this one, but let me know if I need to add one...

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:53 am

Sirius wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:56 pm So, as far as I can tell, you haven't mandated which levels should have secret exits... it's probably going to be more restrictive in D1 since the mapping was one-to-one there, but most D2 secret levels had two. I'm not sure what your plan is for this one, but let me know if I need to add one...

I'm thinking 4 secret exits teleports for each 18-level section, which translates to 2 chances to get into any single secret level. Of course LightWolf crammed a secret exit into almost every level he made (his 2nd favorite thing after making boss levels I guess), but I think we should leave this for later, or at the very least pick the levels for that purpose right off the bat (clandestinely enough, so as not to spoil their locations for the players). So yeah, I think I'll make the call once all the levels are made and I know what they all look like, then contact each author via PMs asking them to incorporate a secret exit section into their level. That'll probably be for the best when it comes to this issue.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:21 pm

Just adding level 42 to the dropbox right now.
My midi of choice for the map is D2 level 4, but if you'd like to save that one for a boss D1 level 17 works really well in it too.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:03 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:21 pm Just adding level 42 to the dropbox right now.
My midi of choice for the map is D2 level 4, but if you'd like to save that one for a boss D1 level 17 works really well in it too.

Ok, I'll check it out right away. Keep in mind that we can use almost every midi track twice, so no worries about that.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:50 am

Well, what can I say. Actually I've got a lot to say about this level!

In terms of geometry it's fantastic. You've become quite amazing at designing large, open spaces over the years. The texturing is also superb, it's among the most unique yet sensible examples of texturing I've seen. Bit of a shame you didn't even make a POG at all though - that way the level feels exactly like D2 Vertigo, but lacks that retro D1 element we want. As for the robot choices, I'm also a bit disappointed in how few D1 robots appear - the spotlight is shared between D2 and Vertigo bots, and the Spider feels much like a guest appearance, like in Vertigo. Not even the addition of other D1 robots in the reactor room fixes this. PESTs could be swapped out for Class 1 Drones and Lou Guards for Super Hulks (that even matches the overall color scheme of the level better). Unless that was all intentional and you were going for as close to vanilla Vertigo with this level as possible. The level's hard enough on Hotshot, but once again, it's that D2 type of difficulty for the most part, with relatively few lethal, fearsome mechs. No drillers either, which is a shame - you could totally use these huge, cavernous spaces of the level to put some drillers far enough from you to be harmless, but close enough to make you afraid.

Also, some minor particular observations:
- the reactor type you chose was designed to touch a wall with its top section, otherwise it looks strangely floating. I suggest lowering the ceiling to meet it
- Not sure if the invulnerability that you get after blowing up the reactor makes any sense, since by that time there won't be much opposition left in the mine anyway
- Gophers should be set to minelayers only, as per D1. Either create a HXM or swap them out for Laser Platformers if you're interested in the same functionality
- The level has almost no secret areas to speak of, or none at all! Can't remember exactly. But even single-cube secret caches are better than nothing, amirite?

Still, that's overall one of your best levels, though your recent ones have been consistently superb.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:05 pm

There are a few secrets. I don't quite remember where they all are, and I wouldn't spoil them even if I did. I remember at least one specifically.
I'll switch the reactor to a baloris type in that case.
There are not supposed to be gophers here... what is DLE screwing with this time? I uploaded the map in a hurry so I'd have the map available to me while I'm away from my main PC, I didn't give it a full fly through after my last small geometry and texture edits. I will check on this... In the meantime, if you tell me where you've been seeing them it would be a huge help.
The invulnerability is there because you need to pass through a lava fall on your way to the exit, just after you clear a room full of missile bots. If you only barely survived the reactor, I wanted to make sure the exit run didn't kill you unavoidably.

I did go for a vanilla vertigo feeling with the bot placements; which is also why I occasionally switched up the spider spawns.

If you really want drillers I suppose you could replace the Sniper NGs which are kinda there to fill the same role. I do think they fit better though. I wanted the PESTs and Lou Guards there specifically because I liked the way they fit into some similar texture themes in Vertigo.
Also uploaded in a hurry a song that is tentatively themed for this map and The Cauldron.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:04 pm

The gophers were in the reactor room, I counted two.

I still think you could throw in some drillers or at least make them optional in matcens, and use more D1 bot kinds throughout the level and not just in the reactor chamber too.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:40 pm

Yeah that was a DLE error. Those green spiders were supposed to just spawn small spiders instead of the regular D2 spider spawn.
I like to limit the robot types I use in a single level, and make it feel cohesive. Pretty soon after the point in time when I started the population I already knew what the entire robot cast was going to be. I'm not sure what I could do at this point besides replacing one type with another that fills the same purpose, and I'm already using a large number of bot types just to make it feel like a vertigo level. I won't go into the whole discussion on how each placement in the map has a purpose... *this* time.

Basically, even if I were to just add a bunch of D1 bots in I'd still have to rework the population of the different areas where they're going to make sure that the challenge and atmospherics still work. That's a pretty big undertaking for a placeholder population -- I think it's something to do when we're tweaking the final population. Certainly don't mean to say I'm against it -- though I think the mission certainly has room for a vanilla-style vertigo level it doesn't by any means have to be this one.

I'm reuploading the level with an extra secret and those robot drops repaired for the moment. Anything beyond that I'll have to do after I get off the plane tomorrow.

Superbobby · Post by **Superbobby** » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:11 pm

Here's my revised Brimspark level:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nbkr2zkg202zn ... v.zip?dl=0

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:09 am

Sweet! Too bad I'm at work, it'll have to wait a few hours before I can check it out.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm

Ok, I checked out the level, looks like everything is in order, with one exception, the texture rock314 actually looks horrible in fire.pig. You couldn't have known that. Anyway, I'll take the liberty of changing that texture to a similar one that doesn't look as bad in this palette - say, rock224. Other than that I guess it looks good

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:57 am

Structure done for 27, next up texturing and maybe some sample item placement... that usually goes a little quicker for me since I already have an idea of what I wanted to do with each place. So I'll probably start that over the weekend... hell, I could livestream it if someone's bored and/or really finds texturing fascinating

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:08 am

Sirius wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:57 am Structure done for 27, next up texturing and maybe some sample item placement... that usually goes a little quicker for me since I already have an idea of what I wanted to do with each place. So I'll probably start that over the weekend... hell, I could livestream it if someone's bored and/or really finds texturing fascinating

I actually wouldn't mind watching something like that in the slightest, would be even nicer to talk over Skype or something. Not sure we could arrange a meet though given the time zone difference

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:04 am

Would be cool. I've got too much free time at this northern hospital -- nothing really happens.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:16 am

OK, guess I'll look at that then. I might be able to start tonight but it will likely be late if so. Probably also Saturday afternoon sometime. I can post here and on Discord if I do that (although, there are two Descent Discord servers...

)

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:30 pm

Which stream thing are you gonna use?

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:26 am

Going up shortly. Will probably keep at it for an hour or two, still need to wake up tomorrow

I also have a Beam/Mixer account if Twitch is a problem.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:09 am

Aw shucks, and I missed it

Went to sleep like a few mins before it started actually

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:16 am

Darn. I went to sleep early too.

I'll keep discord open today in case you start up again.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:58 pm

Most likely time is somewhere around 2 pm local time (in about 3 hours from this post)... there is a Rangers event at noon which I'll probably be participating in. I might do a bit of work before then but hard to predict how much.

The Discord server that most of the Overload watchers seem to congregate on is https://discord.gg/UkYZME - if you need to get my attention that might be the best place to try

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:30 pm

Level 27 on Dropbox... basically no items/robots included in the level but I can add placeholders if they'd be helpful.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:46 am

Sirius wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:30 pm Level 27 on Dropbox... basically no items/robots included in the level but I can add placeholders if they'd be helpful.

Well if there's anything you have a particular idea for like robot placement or power-up setups or traps then sure, go for it. Simple placeholder robots would be fine too if you feel like it. If you have a rough idea on the robots you'd like to see in the level, you can let us know too. Fox and I will do some initial populating when the time comes. I'm also for testing each and every level extensively before the DMDB release to ensure an optimally tuned difficulty curve, but that's a ways off still

Sylandrophol · Post by **Sylandrophol** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:22 am

Hey, just letting y'all know that i haven't been able to work on my level atm, life's been a bit rough around my end, plus i've been around my discord too, and that's been a bit of a hassle on my end.

Hope you guys understand.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:14 am

Just Limefrost Spiral stuff... though there are a few traps I should put robots in - was thinking Lou Guards and E-Bandits, though if some D1 mix-ins are encouraged I could put a driller in one or two...
Anyway, yeah, I'll do an items/robots pass as well so it's clearer what I was thinking about with certain rooms. Maybe tomorrow if I'm not too busy with other stuff, but we'll see. Until then the geometry/texturing/lighting is there for review... I think the level ended up being larger than it was supposed to be but hopefully it's not a total deal-breaker.

Looking forward... it's been a while since I've built a secret level (I think I've only ever built one actually, that one from Obsidian). Any of those still unclaimed? What sorts of constraints do they come with?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:22 am

Sirius wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:14 am Just Limefrost Spiral stuff... though there are a few traps I should put robots in - was thinking Lou Guards and E-Bandits, though if some D1 mix-ins are encouraged I could put a driller in one or two...

More than that, actually equal proportions of D1 and D2 robots are encouraged. Class 2 Drones are very Limefrosty for example. E-bandits kinda break the theme I think tho

Drillers are always welcome, they should be spammed throughout the mission just like they were in d1, that was part of the terror

Anyway, yeah, I'll do an items/robots pass as well so it's clearer what I was thinking about with certain rooms. Maybe tomorrow if I'm not too busy with other stuff, but we'll see. Until then the geometry/texturing/lighting is there for review... I think the level ended up being larger than it was supposed to be but hopefully it's not a total deal-breaker.

Sure, I'll take a look today after work. Don't worry too much about the size - the only constraint is 900 cubes.

Looking forward... it's been a while since I've built a secret level (I think I've only ever built one actually, that one from Obsidian). Any of those still unclaimed? What sorts of constraints do they come with?

Well, take a look at that secret level made by Shroudeye for cues. The general idea is pretty much the same as it was in CS and Vertigo - minimal to no resistance, confusing puzzles, one-shot triggers galore and a focus on atmosphere. These levels are basically bonus refueling caches. As for which secret levels are free - both the CS ones are, as well as the first Vertigo one. The remaining two not yet made are taken by Naphtha and Shroudeye.

Sylandrophol wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:22 am Hey, just letting y'all know that i haven't been able to work on my level atm, life's been a bit rough around my end, plus i've been around my discord too, and that's been a bit of a hassle on my end.

Hope you guys understand.

No worries, we're not in any sort of a hurry so take your time!

Phozon · Post by **Phozon** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:00 am

We're back in business bois. 550 cubes so far,, (but i'm not very efficient so it's not Accctually a large level yet). Still need most of yellow and red areas

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:19 am

Great to hear from you, Phozon! Just make sure not to go overboard with the yellow tape as door borders

Sirius, thanks for the level, checking it out as I write this. If you don't mind, next time upload the file as a HOG archive, since I had to create one myself along with a MN2 file just to try the level out

The level is of course remarkable, I wouldn't expect anything less from a designer this seasoned. The titular structure is bound to be super memorable, I'm also amazed at the 3D canopy-like structures you seem make out of see-through wall textures with such ease.

Phozon · Post by **Phozon** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:33 am

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:19 am Great to hear from you, Phozon! Just make sure not to go overboard with the yellow tape as door borders

Yeah about that. I'm just using lights around blue section and after, not going back to change all the ones already done with tape. (you didn't have this complaint for the mars level but i'm fairly sure i did exactly the same there :c

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:40 am

Phozon wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:33 am
Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:19 am Great to hear from you, Phozon! Just make sure not to go overboard with the yellow tape as door borders
Yeah about that. I'm just using lights around blue section and after, not going back to change all the ones already done with tape. (you didn't have this complaint for the mars level but i'm fairly sure i did exactly the same there :c

Yeah, but then I changed most of those tape borders to lights afterwards. I think I did mention at least once how this is a bit too unorthodox for this mission, which aims for traditional solutions. I may have not stressed this enough, but it's really quite essential. If it's too much hassle for you to change it, just leave the ones you already made and I'll change them myself.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:01 pm

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:22 am E-bandits kinda break the theme I think tho

They showed up pretty regularly in D2's Limefrost Spiral levels. But, since we're already not doing the exact same thing in the addition of D1 robots, is the idea to keep to more icy-looking robots and not focus too much on what D2 did? Diamond Claws might fill an equivalent role in that case.

Secret levels - in that case I'll pick Quartzon Planetary Vault... the Beta Ceti one feels like a wildcard, i.e. if you have a specific idea for a secret level that doesn't fit the other themes that's the one to use for it... and since that isn't my situation it might be more useful to leave it open for now.

Phozon · Post by **Phozon** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:36 pm

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:40 am Yeah, but then I changed most of those tape borders to lights afterwards. I think I did mention at least once how this is a bit too unorthodox for this mission, which aims for traditional solutions. I may have not stressed this enough, but it's really quite essential. If it's too much hassle for you to change it, just leave the ones you already made and I'll change them myself.

Ah you might have mentioned slightly yeah. A lot of the textures behind the tapes aren't the same as the walls either side (so that they don't get auto aligned later). The door light texture is 6 wide as opposed to tape being 7 wide, so after changing that secondary texture without making the door frame 1 thinner on each side means there might be incorrect primary textures visible.

There is a lot of tape around doorways found in: Level 3, 13, 14, 16
but granted, not often fully framing doors unless they are in ceiling/floor (see blue key area level 14).

Anyway, i'm fine with small things being changed, if it really matters that much!

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:56 pm

Sirius wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:01 pm
Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:22 am E-bandits kinda break the theme I think tho
They showed up pretty regularly in D2's Limefrost Spiral levels.

I'm absolutely certain there were no E-bandits in Limefrost levels, like none whatsoever. There were lots of them in Brimspark and Baloris and some in Puuma Sphere too, but none in Limefrost. I even confirmed this a moment ago in the level editor. Just so we're talking about the same robot, you do mean the melee one that steals your shields and energy and looks kinda like a Class 1 Drone? Then yeah, there were none of those in Limefrost Spiral. [/quote]

But, since we're already not doing the exact same thing in the addition of D1 robots, is the idea to keep to more icy-looking robots and not focus too much on what D2 did? Diamond Claws might fill an equivalent role in that case.

We don't have to stick just to blue robots like D2 did with Limefrost, but there are so many to choose from D1, D2 and Vertigo too that we can probably choose somes that aren't specifically orange

Secret levels - in that case I'll pick Quartzon Planetary Vault... the Beta Ceti one feels like a wildcard, i.e. if you have a specific idea for a secret level that doesn't fit the other themes that's the one to use for it... and since that isn't my situation it might be more useful to leave it open for now.

No problem, I'll mark this level for you. If I recall correctly, Naphtha used to have this level reserved, but he resigned - I might be wrong though. Not that it matters much right now, just remembering something

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:20 pm

I think my problem is Diamond Claws on Insane are hyper-aggressive and attack like E-Bandits. At least one of them is flagged "get behind", which causes much the same effect. It was either that or I was thinking of Puuma Sphere, or Omegas which can also be a nuisance, but at least not of the sort that pins you to a wall.

I also noticed there are a lot of cloaked Diamond Claws in those levels. That seems particularly appropriate for some of these dark tunnels.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:04 pm

Well yeah, but if you're too concerned about the difficulty, you could replace those with cloaked regular lifters instead. Limefrost seems like a logical enough place to spam them, well other than Puuma of course. If you like nothing clashing coloristically then I'd suggest using the Compact Lifters from Vertigo, those guys look like they were practically made for ice levels. Fiddlers would be fine too, since those are neutral coloristically.

Having Vertigo alongside the other two robot pools gives us so many to work with that we really needn't worry about managing to fit any given theme at all, IMO. Well, perhaps with the exception of the purple theme, because only the Fusion Hulk and the Logikill explicitly fit it, but then again that theme doesn't really demand monocolor robots as much as say, Brimspark or Limefrost do. Also, the Solar System and Vertigo levels don't emphasize coloristically themed robot sets as much as the CS systems do.