Descent 1 1/2

Superbobby · Post by **Superbobby** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:07 am

Hey guys, I have a layout for Level 51, which I'm currently calling "PTMC Supreme Gate 88888888".

Here's a link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/854eljbij35n0 ... 1.zip?dl=0

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:21 pm

I've just opened up level 50 to fix some of the messy doors and texturing, and the light colours.

I would say, X, that the number of door types is not so much a problem as the lack of rhyme or reason in what doors got put where. When you have multiple types it's best to have the secondary type denote a particular area or function, so as, basically, to not look like a mess.

And to fix those matcen textures in that water area I have an idea...
I've been too tired today to figure out the blue key which means I haven't been able to actually play the thing through. So I might miss something with only the editor's viewport to go by.

Now the exit is definitely too far from the reactor -- nobody's going to be making it there on ace or insane. I don't really want to be moving it myself, I think that's a significant part of the author's design, but it either needs to be closer or you need to build a "back route" from the reactor to the exit that's significantly faster.

Your new one also has a smaller problem with doors looking almost like they were picked at random. I would say you should either narrow it down to two of the ones you've got or replace one type with the fence door. Otherwise, though, I love how it almost looks like something out of the Entropy Experiment.

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:54 pm

Sorry, kinda dropped off the face of the Earth for a bit without uploading my final changes to level 8. I saw someone updated the original Tholin files I posted, so I posted Tholin2.mn2 and .hog, just to be safe. Added some new sections to the red key area, let me know if it works.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:05 pm

I've added those three songs to the dropbox Kaizerwolf, along with a couple suggestions for where they might go. Any ideas yourself?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:27 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:21 pm I've just opened up level 50 to fix some of the messy doors and texturing, and the light colours.
I would say, X, that the number of door types is not so much a problem as the lack of rhyme or reason in what doors got put where. When you have multiple types it's best to have the secondary type denote a particular area or function, so as, basically, to not look like a mess.

And to fix those matcen textures in that water area I have an idea...
I've been too tired today to figure out the blue key which means I haven't been able to actually play the thing through. So I might miss something with only the editor's viewport to go by.

Now the exit is definitely too far from the reactor -- nobody's going to be making it there on ace or insane. I don't really want to be moving it myself, I think that's a significant part of the author's design, but it either needs to be closer or you need to build a "back route" from the reactor to the exit that's significantly faster.

Your new one also has a smaller problem with doors looking almost like they were picked at random. I would say you should either narrow it down to two of the ones you've got or replace one type with the fence door. Otherwise, though, I love how it almost looks like something out of the Entropy Experiment.

I think you may have been looking at the first version of Chi, most of the stuff you've mentioned has already been fixed. I don't know if I've uploaded the revised version to Dropbox, I think I should have. This week is super busy at work and I don't even have an idea what hour I'll be back home, but I'll take a look at all the updates as soon as I can. Until that time, let's not work on levels without consulting each other, going forward too! It would probably be best if you always downloaded the file straight from its dropbox folder before examining/updating it. We need to have a unified version base so that people don't work on outdated stuff. I don't quite remember what changes I've made to some of the levels (as it's been a while), but I always update the files once some minor texture fixes have been made or something. I did do some work on level 50 too, so we need to reconcile it.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:43 am

And yeah, narrow doors down to one, or two at most (like Fox said, the second type should be placed in particular and distinct places), the fence door notwithstanding.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:31 am

I did download a revision that dropbox said was yours to work on -- this problematic stuff was still in it.
Are you sure you uploaded the right version?

Anyway I added my revision as a zip so it wouldn't overwrite yours.
Planning a couple revisions to 51 based on what I've seen so far as well.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:22 pm

I checked just now and it seems that the date of the mission in my d2 missions folder and the one on dropbox do match, so I must have uploaded the version after Bobby's changes and mine too. You shouldn't have created anotehr version of the file, just updated mine. We don't need this many versions to work on as it creates confusion and nothing else, really. If you were basing your work on the version I had worked on, then yours is all we need.

EDIT: I just checked, and it seems you were after all doing your editing on the version that Bobby put in this thread initially. The second version was called d15-50-b, and it both moved the exit closer, so that it can actually be reached on Insane, and removed the ubiquitous matcen texture in that section of the level with the water - both things you complained about in your post above. I have no idea how you could find these things troublesome, considering that Bobby had already fixed them in version B. In your version also there are also those 2 yellow robot-like walls that block off the red key, something I pointed out as looking weird quite a while ago, and it was replaced in version B with forcefields. I'm therefore forced to assume that you put all your edits on the initial version of the level.

If you don't mind, please re-apply those same fixes, but on the B version of the level, which had already fixed most of the things you mentioned (because I mentioned them too, earlier in fact

)

In the meantime I'ma check me level 51 and Kaizerwolf's update for level 8.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:57 pm

Ok, checked out level 51. Other than whatever Alter-Fox may have to say about it:
- Considering the fact that it does have quite a lot of mixed themes in it, the palette to use should have either been Groupa or Descent, not Alien1. While the latter does make the desert sections look real good, it also makes the icy and greenish sections look real bad. Groupa is much more rounded, that's the palette I would suggest for the level.
- The secret door in the floor that opens once you exit the hostage cell is actually not unlockable from the inside, trapping the player with no means of escape

Other than that I've got plenty of good things to say about this level. Just like your other levels it's got a very distinct atmosphere to itself, something quite eerie, Vertigo-ish and D1-ish at the same time, so basically something that checks all my mental boxes. The variety and freedom in the texturing is quite stupendous here, just like in all of your levels - as is mixing the risky and untrodden ground with the tried and true tropes of Descent. Definitely a keeper.

I'm not going to perform the changes I named in the level myself, as we've got enough version confusion here as it is. You do these changes/fixes, and after you're done, let Alter-Fox do his fixes. Unless he was planning to change the things I named anyway, in which case you wouldn't have to do anything. But that's why we need efficient communication

@Kaizerwolf your updates to level 8 are real sweet, great job as always

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:20 pm

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:22 pm ...The second version was called d15-50-b...l.

If you don't mind, please re-apply those same fixes, but on the B version of the level, which had already fixed most of the things you mentioned (because I mentioned them too, earlier in fact )

I thought d15-50-b was the name of the file I had... turns out that was the other one, d15-51-b. Oops.
As for 51, I can make those changes along with those few of my own. Neither of them should take much.

EDIT: I've remade my changes to 50 and added an updated version of 51 to the dropbox. The only thing I wasn't able to do there was change the PIG, which is crashing DLE again...

There were also a couple of "decoration" areas inside one of the optional yellow doors that I thought looked unnecessarily flat, so I expanded those slightly as well.

Superbobby · Post by **Superbobby** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:30 pm

Here's my revision of Supreme Gate. I made most of the changes before Alter-Fox made his revision. It has the GroupA POG and the secret door fix, but its door choices and fire room detail are a little different from Alter-Fox's edits.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4yjkhum4x0sqp ... 2.zip?dl=0

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:37 pm

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:57 pm
@Kaizerwolf your updates to level 8 are real sweet, great job as always

I'm glad I can still impress. Despite my weird absences, are there still slots that I could take? I have no idea what I would pick, so if you're open to me trying my hand at another level, I'm down for suggestions!

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:11 pm

Are we sure about that level title ("Supreme Gate" etc)? It sounds kind of fan-fic.

Actual level itself looks a lot better than the title would have me expect...

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:21 am

Yeah, I like the open spaces in the level a lot. It's a bit symmetric, but we need a few of this type of levels too.

Since we now have two versions of level 51, one with a changed PIG and one without it, would you mind working off Bobby's updated version, Alter-Fox? That way we may be able to end up with a unified version, just like with 50.

@Kaizerwolf - if you want to make another level then of course feel free to. Not sure what to suggest, though maybe you could tackle another Counterstrike level this time. We could use one more level with your distinct style in the D2 portion, though the style overall probably fits Vertigo best.

Sylandrophol · Post by **Sylandrophol** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:29 am

Completely forgot about my level like the numbnuts that i am, will try to get it finished (mostly) later this week.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:10 am

Sylandrophol wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:29 am Completely forgot about my level like the numbnuts that i am, will try to get it finished (mostly) later this week.

Great to know. Good luck

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:13 am

I could do either 21 or 31. I feel like I've probably got too many levels in Vertigo to choose another one from there.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:12 am

Xfing wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:21 am Since we now have two versions of level 51, one with a changed PIG and one without it, would you mind working off Bobby's updated version, Alter-Fox? That way we may be able to end up with a unified version, just like with 50.

Alrighty. I don't have much else to do while I'm home getting over the flu...

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:47 pm

Kaizerwolf wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:13 am I could do either 21 or 31. I feel like I've probably got too many levels in Vertigo to choose another one from there.

31 sounds good! Just don't make it too weird, since it has to look like a proper Puuma level

Kaizerwolf · Post by **Kaizerwolf** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:38 am

Xfing wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:47 pm

31 sounds good! Just don't make it too weird, since it has to look like a proper Puuma level

Just to clarify, Puuma Sphere is green and white themes, correct?

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:57 am

Pretty much. Sometimes there was teal mixed in too IIRC. I remember certain green textures being used more than others though... maybe it's best to show?

And I don't think grey stone goes amiss in any level flavour, even if it wasn't used originally.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:12 pm

Ran through the Groupa version of level 51 and gotta say it's gorgeous, and looks quite amazing now, with not one from the various themes that this level incorporates being distorted or ugly. It's definitely going to be a super memorable level due to how amazingly well textured it is. You really have a knack for coming up with amazing eye candy, Bobby. This level's reliance on moving textures adds to the mesmerizing factor too. Also, I love how effortlessly you incorporated some of the D1 textures, like the tan and gray brick that come with the template for example - they don't feel gratuitous at all, in fact they feel like they're right where they belong. I think your levels are probably the closest ones to perfection when it comes to following the texturing guidelines of the mission pack, and I'll definitely push for some more traditionally textured levels to get spiffed up with your levels as an example to follow.

There are still like 3 types of doors in the level, used equally. Not something that's ever happened even in Vertigo. Hope Alter-Fox fixes this when adding his own corrections >_>

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:45 pm

Wait, three?
I only see the D1 iris door and the D1 mercury door when I'm looking at it. And I know where all the doors are, there aren't that many.
...maybe I already fixed that yesterday? I'll be uploading pretty soon.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:21 am

Yeah, I picked the level up straight from Bobby's link, so yeah, awaiting your upload eagerly

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:42 am

Uploaded!

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:29 pm

It's bugged. Rebirth returns an error regarding "return extra robots", can't read <filename>.ham.

I work in ticket resolution now, so I find this supremely irritating, and it's too late for me to be bothered as I'm going to sleep. PLZ FIX

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:28 pm

...I forgot to rename it when I renamed the hog. Should be simple, and now it should be working.
Sourry aboot that eh?

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:14 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:28 pm ...I forgot to rename it when I renamed the hog. Should be simple, and now it should be working.
Sourry aboot that eh?

No probzies. I just go to sleep real early these days so I'm pretty void of brainpower right before that happens

Superbobby · Post by **Superbobby** » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:49 pm

Sirius wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:11 pm Are we sure about that level title ("Supreme Gate" etc)? It sounds kind of fan-fic.

I figure at this point in the game we should start to see some of PTMC's weirder experiments, and I felt a "supreme gate" would be a weird PTMC thing they would build, hence the name. I'm impartial to it for the most part.

Xfing wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:12 pm I think your levels are probably the closest ones to perfection when it comes to following the texturing guidelines of the mission pack, and I'll definitely push for some more traditionally textured levels to get spiffed up with your levels as an example to follow.

Wow, thanks!

I actually recently unearthed one of my older levels and I think with some touch-ups it would be a good fit for Vertigo Level 4.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:07 am

Superbobby wrote: ↑Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:49 pm I actually recently unearthed one of my older levels and I think with some touch-ups it would be a good fit for Vertigo Level 4.

Perhaps. We, however, need to keep in mind that thematic variety is still a concern, even in the Vertigo portion. Since not all designers can see what the remaining levels look like (something I actively try to minimize by giving out accesses to Dropbox - notify me if you haven't got yours yet!), we have an overrepresentation of door types etc. This is probably something we'll fix once all the levels are in.

On another note - Dropbox is moaning again that it doesn't have space. I don't feel like buying a bigger plan for Dropbox, so could I ask Alter-Fox to move the music to another Dropbox? I figure it's the part that takes up the most space and it keeps growing fast too. We don't need to edit the music, we just need it somewhere we can check it out, so maybe moving it to your own Dropbox could help a bit here. Thanks

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:44 am

If dropbox is giving you trouble on capacity, I could set up a FTP account on a folder inside the DBB server for you, the hosting won't complain unless you start getting into the range of dozens of gigabytes and I highly doubt D1/D2 level sets and some music is going to get that big... PM me if you are interested.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:51 am

Although I like Krom's suggestion too and I don't want to ignore that possibility; to answer your original question X I could move them but I'd probably have to use Google Drive rather than my own dropbox which has got other important stuff taking up space.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:07 am

Of course I don't know what kind of access control you are using on dropbox, a FTP account is basically all or nothing so it might not be the best option either.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:35 am

Well, dropbox is a regular cloud drive kinda like Sharepoint and others. I'm just keeping the levels there for ease of storage. But I think it's definitely the music that takes up the most space. I think it could be stored offline in all honesty. If someone's interested they could just PM you and you could Sendspace it for them or something. I don't think we'll ever come close to max capacity once the space set up by the music is freed up.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:29 pm

Only thing is I would like you guys to give input on tracks once in a while. Especially, if the music track's for a certain author's level, that author should have a right to veto and choose another one since it does affect the feeling so much. That's why I've taken to putting level names in the filenames.
This is less about curiosity and more about making sure the designers have the ability to create the atmosphere they want to with either soundtrack.

Still thinking that google drive is the best option as long as I can get what I need to give all you guys access.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:05 pm

Well if you can make some room there too, then please do

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:08 pm

So, to any designers who would like to be able to pick music tracks for their own maps (or take a look at what I've chosen for them) shoot me a PM and I'll send you a link.
If you don't want to, just keep in mind that it'll be entirely up my interpretation of your atmosphere -- so the people who prefer a rock soundtrack with their Descent may be hearing something in your map that changes something about the feeling you've tried to create.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:43 pm

Hey guys -- I just found out about a couple quirks of the game we should probably be keeping in mind for a mission this size.
Thief's health scales per level like the reactors do, by about 13% per map (appropriately

)... so we should be expecting some pretty tough bandits in the late game. Not necessarily a bad thing but it's definitely something we should know about when we're planning populations.

You know that thing at the end of D2 where you go all invulnerable and the game fades into the outro cinematic? That's actually a property of the Tycho Brahe boss, and it does seem to apply to custom levels that use that particular robot. I need to do some further testing to figure out exactly what it affects; but we may have to find a way around this, depending.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:03 am

That would probably depend on whether the source port you're using changed it. Originally it was hard-coded to run on the last level of D2 Counterstrike, and only that level.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:01 am

Really? 'Cause I remember my brother trying out DLE with the DOS version of the game and making a map that did this... I checked with him and he remembers it too, so it's not just my delusion.
Maybe this was still version 1.0 though... only the 1.2 source was released, right?