Should we give land and power back to Native "Americans?"

[Burlyman]

What are your thoughts?

[Tunnelcat]

Yeah, I think we should. But the Federal Government is still taking them for a ride because they own most of the western lands rich in oil, gas and minerals and the big corporations out for a profit have far more clout and money. Ain't capitalism great.

https://www.propublica.org/article/land ... its-allege

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/ ... mining-and

Then you got this loose group of people in the West who call themselves the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom. Yeah, right. They want all that government owned BLM land returned the them because they believe they rightfully own it. But they're conveniently forgetting that most of that land wasn't theirs in the first place. I'd like to see the Native Americans who were ingenious to those areas before the Europeans came and stole it to get the land returned to THEM instead. It's rightfully theirs anyway and better stewards. It would be a nice case of schadenfreude to stick it that bunch of gun-toting arrogant white dudes, because I sure got sick of this group's constant patriotic rhetoric and destructive behavior when they took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge here in Oregon.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... e9ae6a5c12

Here's the problem with that: European trappers, traders and later ranchers who settled in the area have never owned this land. And therefore, any "return" would likely involve the Native Americans who once did own it.

[Nightshade]

Yeah, I think we should. But the Federal Government is still taking them for a ride because they own most of the western lands rich in oil, gas and minerals and the big corporations out for a profit have far more clout and money. Ain't capitalism great.

https://www.propublica.org/article/land ... its-allege

Here's the problem with that: European trappers, traders and later ranchers who settled in the area have never owned this land. And therefore, any "return" would likely involve the Native Americans who once did own it.

I wonder what (if anything) people with some percentage of Native American ancestry would get. lol

[Vander]

Thought experiment:

How would Germans be discussing this topic had they won WW2?

[woodchip]

Thought experiment:

How would Germans be discussing this topic had they won WW2?

how are Iraqi's handling the Kurd's after the Kurds helped them destroy ISIS?

[Nightshade]

Thought experiment:

How would Germans be discussing this topic had they won WW2?

All I care about is what the government is going to give me for being part Native American.

[Tunnelcat]

All I care about is what the government is going to give me for being part Native American.

Didn't you get the memo? According to the Alt-Right and other White Supremacist groups, mixed-race children don't get special favors because our tribal tendencies tells us humans that any bastard children are not of a "pure" race and thus undeserving, of getting anything.

[Nightshade]

Didn't you get the memo? According to the Alt-Right and other White Supremacist groups, mixed-race children don't get special favors because our tribal tendencies tells us humans that any bastard children are not of a "pure" race and thus undeserving, of getting anything.

Sure, but I'm not an "alt-right" white supremacist like you are trying to libel me as. They would consider me a Jew to be sent to the ovens for my Jewish ancestry.

[Vander]

It's almost like sweeping generalizations rarely fit.

[Nightshade]

It's almost like sweeping generalizations rarely fit.

Exactly, so stop making them.

[vision]

It's almost like sweeping generalizations rarely fit.

Exactly, so stop making them.

Will you remember this advice when you post your next jab at Muslims? (it's a trick question)

[Tunnelcat]

Didn't you get the memo? According to the Alt-Right and other White Supremacist groups, mixed-race children don't get special favors because our tribal tendencies tells us humans that any bastard children are not of a "pure" race and thus undeserving, of getting anything.

Sure, but I'm not an "alt-right" white supremacist like you are trying to libel me as. They would consider me a Jew to be sent to the ovens for my Jewish ancestry.

I didn't say you were. I said you'd be a target of the Alt-Right. You voted for the moron who's now the president and who's now the new hero for the Alt-Right and the KKK, so you're guilty by association. It's not like you didn't know what Trump peddled beforehand either because his campaign rallies stank of xenophobia and racism. And knowing all that in advance, you still voted for and gave us a president who's made it one of his missions to screw America's native tribes out of their land, their rights to that land and any profits they could've possibly reaped from that land and hand it right over to white-owned corporations ever since he took office. You also voted for a president who's rarely spoken against White Nationalists (and sometimes even encouraged them) who are now emboldened to speak their anti-Semitic hate. Talk about voting against your own interests, especially since you're part Native American AND Jewish.

We've even gotten people peddling that foul crap in our small college town. And if you'll notice on the sidebar, it's been a 2fer here with the other guy who got caught putting anti-Semitic stickers on people's cars and who loved pissing people off by displaying a Confederate flag prominently in his apartment window.

http://www.gazettetimes.com/news/local/ ... 6923c.html

[Nightshade]

It's almost like sweeping generalizations rarely fit.

Exactly, so stop making them.

Will you remember this advice when you post your next jab at Muslims? (it's a trick question)

You're not following that advice by generalizing about me...and you can't seem to differentiate between muslims and islam.

[Nightshade]

You voted for the moron who's now the president and who's now the new hero for the Alt-Right and the KKK, so you're guilty by association. It's not like you didn't know what Trump peddled beforehand either because his campaign rallies stank of xenophobia and racism. And knowing all that in advance, you still voted for and gave us a president who's made it one of his missions to screw America's native tribes out of their land, their rights to that land and any profits they could've possibly reaped from that land and hand it right over to white-owned corporations ever since he took office. You also voted for a president who's rarely spoken against White Nationalists (and sometimes even encouraged them) who are now emboldened to speak their anti-Semitic hate. Talk about voting against your own interests, especially since you're part Native American AND Jewish.

I voted AGAINST Hillary. Bad people also supported Obama. Guilt by association there as well?

[Top Gun]

So who, dare I ask, are those "bad people"?

[Tunnelcat]

You voted for the moron who's now the president and who's now the new hero for the Alt-Right and the KKK, so you're guilty by association. It's not like you didn't know what Trump peddled beforehand either because his campaign rallies stank of xenophobia and racism. And knowing all that in advance, you still voted for and gave us a president who's made it one of his missions to screw America's native tribes out of their land, their rights to that land and any profits they could've possibly reaped from that land and hand it right over to white-owned corporations ever since he took office. You also voted for a president who's rarely spoken against White Nationalists (and sometimes even encouraged them) who are now emboldened to speak their anti-Semitic hate. Talk about voting against your own interests, especially since you're part Native American AND Jewish.

I voted AGAINST Hillary. Bad people also supported Obama. Guilt by association there as well?

You could have voted third party like I did as a protest vote against BOTH Hillary AND Trump. That's no excuse.

[vision]

You're not following that advice by generalizing about me...and you can't seem to differentiate between muslims and islam.

That's a false difference since Islam doesn't exist without Muslims practicing it. Lately you seem fond of saying you don't like "Islamists" but is that any different than singling out "Evangelicals" or "Mormons"? You are still generalizing, just like you do in every post that says "Democrats believe this..." or "Liberals always do that..." or even when you post about a Dreamer. I noticed you didn't start a thread about Luis Bracamontes, you posted about Dreamers and Democrats. You made a generalization about Democrats loving dreamers (even though DACA has near unanimous bi-partisan support) and that somehow they have to love Luis the cop killer. Besides, I've never heard a good argument why kids who were brought here illegally and who are culturally American should be deported. It's a sign of gross immaturity when people believe the law is black and white. If it was, there would be no need for a judicial system.

[Nightshade]

That's a false difference since Islam doesn't exist without Muslims practicing it.

There is certainly a difference between Catholics and Catholicism for example. I'm sure you know several that don't follow many many edicts of the church (simply by using contraception for instance.)

So no. islam does not = muslims in the same way.

[Nightshade]

So who, dare I ask, are those "bad people"?

Louis Farrakhan = David Duke.

[vision]

There is certainly a difference between Catholics and Catholicism for example.

Only semantically. Again, you miss the point. Catholicism has no real meaning without Catholics practising it. At one point in time, Christians killed worshippers of Dionysus, yet today we don't see anyone preaching against the evils of Dionysus because practitioners largely don't exist, even though Dionysian ideas do. You do a really bad job arguing that Islam is separate from Muslims, and that's expected since it makes no sense to think of them separately. You'll need to do better making your case. Start by understanding Islam comprehensively and pointing out why "this" part of Islam is bad and why "that" part is good. "Islam is bad" is what a simpleton would say.

[Nightshade]

You do a really bad job arguing that Islam is separate from Muslims, and that's expected since it makes no sense to think of them separately. You'll need to do better making your case. Start by understanding Islam comprehensively and pointing out why "this" part of Islam is bad and why "that" part is good. "Islam is bad" is what a simpleton would say.

Yet I see 'Christianity is bad' all the time and this is taken as a fair characterization of an entire belief system in the media and in academic institutions- and in many cases- Christian believers themselves. Is there a difference in generalization? I make a distinction, whereas they do not. Are you accusing me of something you do yourself?

Say I stated that "religion is bad!" (Which in many instances, it can be.) Does this mean I characterize all people that believe in a religion (ANY religion) as bad people?

No, I do not...as I have stated on many occasion.

[vision]

I make a distinction, whereas they do not.

So, when you start a thread titled "Muslim peace march in Germany..." we're supposed to take it as an insightful critique of fundamental ideas in Islam and not about Muslims? Even with responses like this one?

Maybe [there were low numbers] because many of them are not unsupportive of the goals of jihadist terrorism. Others may be too frightened to show their true feelings lest they themselves be singled out by radicals for murder.

I think your writing style could use some polish because this sure looks like generalizations about Muslims and not a well thought out statement on Islam. What is the value of all these posts of yours anyway?

[callmeslick]

What are your thoughts?

well, we sort of have done so, in the most half-ass way possible, in geographically isolated places. They're generally casino complexes. Sorta worked well in CT.

[Burlyman]

Should there be an affirmative action law to help people like ThunderBunny? I think he said he's part native.

[Vander]

I have Algonquin ancestry. I think my mom said she would qualify for that sweet sweet casino cash, but any sort of documentation was destroyed by fire in the 40's.

[Krom]

Hey if we go back far enough we are all from Africa so when exactly do we define the cutoff for "native"?

[Nightshade]

Hey if we go back far enough we are all from Africa so when exactly do we define the cutoff for "native"?

That's all defined in this case by Native American tribe law or the U.S. government...or somewhere in between.

[callmeslick]

Should there be an affirmative action law to help people like ThunderBunny? I think he said he's part native.

there should be someplace to help TB, but I'm not sure I'm thinking of affirmative action.

[Tunnelcat]

Hey if we go back far enough we are all from Africa so when exactly do we define the cutoff for "native"?

That's all defined in this case by Native American tribe law or the U.S. government...or somewhere in between.

Well, the natives were technically and physically here first, so that should be the determining factor. Europeans were the invaders that cruised over in big ships to rape, pillage and take the land and call it their own.

[Burlyman]

What about giving weapons, knowledge and training to Native Americans so they can dominate? Should we give DARPA over to them?

[Burlyman]

What about a breeding program for native Americans and deportation/immigration programs for U.S. citizens? Should we draw a line?

[Vander]

Surely that's as preposterous as rethinking the use of caricatures of the populations we committed genocide against in sports franchise branding. What's next, recognizing the sovereignty of the lands we've assigned them to?

[Burlyman]

[Jeff250]

Should we give land and power back to Native "Americans?"

I think that we have historically committed horrible crimes against Native Americans. I don't know what the best way forward is. I don't think there is any way to undo what we've done. What I think is lacking in many conversations about this is empathy. Whenever we see someone suffering our first instinct often is, instead of thinking about how we can help, to instead try to rationalize why that person deserves what they have.

[Burlyman]

Barack is no more Muslim than a Zionist is Jewish.

[Tunnelcat]

What Muslim would ever step foot into a Christian Church and go to worship? In fact, I'm guessing most Muslims are proud of their faith and would never sully it, even to gain a transitory power like the presidency.

[Burlyman]

None of these top-level politicians care about faith. So, Barack Obama isn't a Muslim, nor is he a Christian.

[Tunnelcat]

None of these top-level politicians care about faith. So, Barack Obama isn't a Muslim, nor is he a Christian.

I don't give a rat's behind about someone's faith either and I'm not a politician. I think faith is a person's own private affair, not something to be worn on the sleeve like a badge of honor. You don't believe Obama is a Christian. So what? Who cares? Last I heard, there is no religious test required in order to become president.

Article VI of the Constitution

All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

[Burlyman]

He's Satanic. I assume you know why that's bad for politics.

[Tunnelcat]

Pbbbbfffffft!