Christianity = bigotry?

[Burlyman]

Have your parents ever told you not to do something? How is telling someone not to be homosexual being a bigot?

[Top Gun]

No posts in here for a month and this is the weaksauce bait you dangle?

[vision]

How is telling someone not to be homosexual being a bigot?

In this specific case, it's not bigotry but ignorance. You can't just decide to be heterosexual. However, now that you know this fact, if you continue to tell people not to be homosexual then that would constitute bigotry because of harassment. You might was well tell someone to be a different height. Doesn't work that way.

[Tunnelcat]

Debate the subject nicely TG. It's been dead around here and I told Burlyman he could post the topic, so lets have a coherent discussion on the merits of the subject.

You're forgetting tribalism vision. Religion is just another societal tribal construct that uses ignorance and fear to justify any actions against others they disagree with who are not members of their tribe. Most Abrahamic Religions, including Islam and Christianity, justify their actions against homosexuals by quoting the Bible or Koran as absolute fact. They either don't take into account or ignore and refuse to believe that the meanings and literal translations of these tomes have morphed over time due to the biases or misunderstandings of the translators. Even the original authors had internal biases that colored their writings. They were human after all. This has been argued about by scholars for centuries and no one can agree, yet these religious written works are still taken as full-fledged fact, despite science and modern thinking. I mean, how powerful is that faith when some of it's adherents firmly believe that humans and dinosaurs lived together only thousands of years ago? It flies in the face of scientific fact and is just not possible. Religion is even more insidious as a tribal construct because Faith in one's convictions and beliefs is an emotional state of mind that someone must stick to in order for Biblical beliefs and ideas to make sense. Besides, I believe the Bible is more of a parable, not a factual document. It was written during a time of little understanding of the world, deep fears of the unknown and superstitions.

[Vander]

Is telling someone not to be Christian bigotry?

[Top Gun]

I would have a discussion if there were any merits to be had, which there are not. Neo is the very definition of a bad-faith debater.

[Tunnelcat]

Burlyman, I'd like to know the specific Catholic angle you alluded to when you asked to post this topic.

[Burlyman]

This is a different thread than the one about Catholicism. I was just wondering how people can call Christians bigots just for not buying into the fallacy of homosexual "lifestyle" and even for warning them about hell. There are plenty of examples online of people who stop living as homosexuals. Funny how people fall for it though.

Do you also find fault with me for not posting in a few months?

[vision]

I was just wondering how people can call Christians bigots...

If the shoe fits...

You can be a Christian and believe homosexuals are going to hell and not be a bigot about it. Bigotry, in practice, requires some kind of intolerant action. What ever happened to "love the sinner, hate the sin?" Why can't Christians practice tolerance and compassion? (Some do.)

[Burlyman]

I agree.

No, Vander, telling a Christian not to be a Christian is not bigotry.

[Tunnelcat]

My sister is a Christian and even though she doesn't believe being gay is a trait, she still believes that to be Christian is to treat your fellow man with respect and dignity. That doesn't mean you have mistreat or look down upon your fellow human beings just because you disagree with the way they live their lives.

[Burlyman]

Not all Christians disrespect gay people. Gay bashing has been blown way out of proportion in recent years and there seems to be a subliminal message "get mad at Christians!"

[Tunnelcat]

I agree, but just happens that we are a Christian Nation and they seem to be politically doing the lion's share of bigoted hate mongering in this country right now. White Nationalists, of which many are Christians, come next.

[Burlyman]

I think Barack Obama was right when he said we're no longer just a Christian nation. I agree that there are extremists around who aren't acting Christ-like giving homosexuals a hard time but these people don't represent the body of Christ, as it were; they make Christians look bad.

[Tunnelcat]

I agree. I've met many a Christian who take Jesus' word to heart and only wish to spread love and hope, not hate. But there's still the Bible itself that still calls homosexuality an abomination and sin. Despite conflicts and potential errors in the many translations from the original texts, most Christians take the word of the Bible in it's present form as fact and some still throw it in the faces of those who are gay as a weapon, like their tribe is better and more worthy of God's love than those of the gay tribe. They cannot fathom that being gay is NOT a choice. Even my sister, who is very tolerant and a firm believer of Christ, still use the Bible to extoll the abominations of those she firmly believes are being sinful. I finally told her to quit badmouthing gays while I'm around her and she actually told me she was sorry, because she does take the word of Jesus to heart. But every now and then, she can't help herself, because she also firmly believes in the Bible as THE final word of God. That's the problem. How do you teach those intolerant Christians to be respectful of those they firmly believe are committing sin, especially when the book they base their whole belief system is taken as literal fact which should never be challenged? Faith is a hard thing to challenge.

[Burlyman]

We're all born into sin with a sinful nature. That doesn't mean that they can't stop living a sinful life and receive power to overcome their sinful nature.

[vision]

We're all born into sin with a sinful nature. That doesn't mean that they can't stop living a sinful life and receive power to overcome their sinful nature.

That's where you're wrong. Also, it shouldn't matter to you that other people are sinning. Worry about bettering yourself and stop judging.

[LightWolf]

Are you judging his judging?

Granted we should try to better ourselves, but to many people - including Christians - helping others be better people is important as well. In the case of how Christians are supposed to do this, it's as simple as asking them to "ask the man upstairs", no strings attached. As for judging people, Christians are supposed to judge righteously (i.e. not go gay bashing), not simply not judge. Hate the sin, love the sinner; both verbs carry judgement with them, positive or negative. Simply not judging is impossible - even the act of telling someone not to judge is negatively judgemental.

As for being born into sin - think about the stereotypical age when temper tantrums happen (in non-politicians ), then ask yourself if people are born into sin.

[Tunnelcat]

When you judge someone, you are elevating yourself above them. When you understand someone, you are standing in their shoes. When you dislike or revile the way someone lives their life, you are demeaning them.

[Spidey]

Telling someone not to judge is akin to telling someone not to see faces in random patterns. It’s human nature.

The only real variables are what one uses to judge with and what one does with that judgment.

[Tunnelcat]

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. Christians don't want to be called bigots, yet they complain that they are being unfairly called that term when many of their more vocal adherents harshly condem a group of people they believe are living in sin. They also believe that the gay lifestyle is a choice but then seem to forget that being a Christian is also a lifestyle choice. So when they judge harshly based on that belief, they need to realize that standing on that pedestal of self-righteousness will make THEM a target.

[Burlyman]

LightWolf hit the nail on the head kinda

When you judge someone, you are elevating yourself above them. When you understand someone, you are standing in their shoes. When you dislike or revile the way someone lives their life, you are demeaning them.

That's not true.

[vision]

... even the act of telling someone not to judge is negatively judgemental....

Holy crap you're an idiot. The bible has a dozens of verses instructing followers to not be judgemental. Also, pointing out that someone is judging another is not "negatively judgemental" unless you are a fragile little snowflake with a persecution complex.

Get bent.

[LightWolf]

Perhaps I should have been clearer that being negatively critical (as evidenced by the tone of your reply) of someone's judgementalism is being negatively judgemental.

Come to think of it, I should also have been clearer that I'm using "judge" in its more literal sense of coming to an opinion about someone's actions - though I did mention that loving someone is also a judgemental action.

The bible has a dozens of verses instructing followers to not be judgemental.

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.

The bible warns against hypocritical judgement, which TC seems to know. Having a Christian in the family probably helps.

They also believe that the gay lifestyle is a choice but then seem to forget that being a Christian is also a lifestyle choice. So when they judge harshly based on that belief, they need to realize that standing on that pedestal of self-righteousness will make THEM a target.

Hence the warnings. The new testament repeatedly talks about being loving, which the gay bashers fail to do. It's a shame that enough people stand on the pedestal of self-righteousness to become representative of the larger body of Christians who are actually trying to do it right.

[Burlyman]

Don't be a jerk, vision.

[vision]

Don't be a jerk, vision.

Ok, sorry about that. I lost my cool.

[Tunnelcat]

Perhaps I should have been clearer that being negatively critical (as evidenced by the tone of your reply) of someone's judgementalism is being negatively judgemental.

Come to think of it, I should also have been clearer that I'm using "judge" in its more literal sense of coming to an opinion about someone's actions - though I did mention that loving someone is also a judgemental action.

The bible has a dozens of verses instructing followers to not be judgemental.

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.

The bible warns against hypocritical judgement, which TC seems to know. Having a Christian in the family probably helps.

They also believe that the gay lifestyle is a choice but then seem to forget that being a Christian is also a lifestyle choice. So when they judge harshly based on that belief, they need to realize that standing on that pedestal of self-righteousness will make THEM a target.

Hence the warnings. The new testament repeatedly talks about being loving, which the gay bashers fail to do. It's a shame that enough people stand on the pedestal of self-righteousness to become representative of the larger body of Christians who are actually trying to do it right.

Sorry for the late response. I was down in SoCal visiting my very Christian sister and husband for a week and I had a 14 hour drive back to Oregon which physically wiped me out. Ugh. If I ever see another damned Almond tree.....

True to her word, she has managed to refrain from any type of negative comments about gays around me ever since I requested she stop. If it does come up, she's never negative anymore. I can tell it's taking an effort to refrain on her part however. The bias is strong and deep. She even asked me to go to church with them, but I politely declined. Maybe she's just respecting my request, or remembering her Bible, but like most people who dislike what they call the "gay lifestyle", the derision and loathing seems to be derived from a more basal visceral feeling of revulsion. I think that revulsion is what tends to drive most gay basher's actions, especially males. Most people who dislike gays, even my sister, talk about the sex act, not the actual love between 2 people. I also think that revulsion colors the intent of even Jesus-loving Christians, so much so that they sometimes forget or can't help it when they gay bash in hypocritical judgement. They forget that the Bible tells Christians that we all live in sin and that those who live in sin cannot judge others without being hypocrites. Perhaps the most loving of Christians consider their judgement of gays to be righteous, not hypocritical, because homosexuality is referenced in the Bible as a sin. What's your understanding of righteous judgement LightWolf?

I also didn't credit the author or make the correct statement when I posted earlier.

Matthew 7:1–2 KJVS

[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.

[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[Burlyman]

To be fair, I myself have been harsh about homosexuals, most of it due to bad behaviors picked up in school, the rest of it being me just joking about it and being a purist.

Iron sharpens iron, and we need to encourage one another not to sin.

[LightWolf]

Sorry for the late reply of my own.

What's your understanding of righteous judgement LightWolf?

My understanding is that we should judge the way God judges, which at its core is how we want to be judged - kindly, mercifully, lovingly.

[Tunnelcat]

The moral is, we shouldn't label all Christians bigots, when it's only a vocal subset of those who stray from the teachings of Jesus and stand there in judgement others when they themselves harbor their own sin. Even my sister eventually realized she was being judgmental in her nasty comments, forgetting that we are all not without sin. It's a shame that there's a poisonous subset in this country that call themselves Christians who stain the whole religion with their vitriol, and most of you know who I'm talking about.