Descent 1 1/2

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:44 pm

So I finally took a look around Orcus.
I think it's a really good job. If light levels were reduced in the "maze" and the reactor room it could make for a really nice darker level as well, if we still want a few of those.

I'm for including it.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:21 pm

Made a couple tweaks, namely improvements to the tunnels.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yE3v3 ... Nzb62GTs7h

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:08 am

Ok, thanks for that! I'll put it on the list and on Dropbox later today.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:24 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:44 pm I think it's a really good job. If light levels were reduced in the "maze" and the reactor room it could make for a really nice darker level as well, if we still want a few of those.

I think we desperately need more of those, still

Anyway, it's added and listed. This gets us to over 80% of primary level layouts done, and to exactly 75% of all layouts done. 10 regular levels and 5 secret ones to go. For a project this (needlessly) ambitious it's still quite a milestone I'd say

I've been slow and lazy with the populating work unfortunately, but I'll try to get better >_>

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:48 am

Exciting times.
I still remember when we started this scrappy little project with just two or three levels I donated.
At least one of them's still here.

EDIT: X, I'm gonna PM you my ideas for the tycho brahe boss level. That way if I don't end up being able to make it in time (I've been working on a few level projects for Overload) it might be some inspiration for whoever does -- but I don't want to spoil it for any random person reading this thread if I do end up building it. The idea is built around surprises.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:15 am

Ideas received. I find it great that you can always think about the whole adventure and progression rather than just the layout of the level - that's definitely another level of design and it definitely makes for more memorable experiences. If it's not you who makes this level, I'll definitely make sure to pass it on.

So, given that we already have so many levels right now, when making the remaining levels we should follow up on that idea I clandestinely put forward by suggesting texture schemes for levels. The large number of intended levels is an opportunity for including variety that cannot be missed. The D1 portion of the mission has so far largely been pretty amazing at recapturing the particular vibes of D1: First Strike - be it via texturing, geometry or both. Many design tropes used in FS were successfully duplicated, and even the more adventurous levels break the mold only enough so that the proper feel is preserved still. I'm also quite happy with the Counterstrike levels, which are both quite faithful to their inspirations and yet fresh enough to be fun. The Vertigo levels are probably some of the most unusual ones in terms of aesthetics ever made, but I do believe that in the end we will have to do some iterations so that the biggest Vertigo trope is also reflected - I'm talking about the ubiquitous black obsidian texture that's always used in the levels, even in small token amounts. I know this is just due to personal preference by the designer of those levels and Maximum (Dan Wentz, was it?), but it's still something that kinda stood out in those levels and we need to make sure each and every one includes it for consistency. And last but not least, my biggest design insistence - forcing D1-exclusive textures into the later levels to achieve true cohesion between the two sets of textures. So far I have to say it's been done to a very satisfying degree and really makes it constantly feel like you're about to encounter D1 stuff just around the corner, even in the very late levels. I can't help but think that if CD-Enhanced Descent had been a thing, it would have gone the same route.

Oh, and another thing we'll definitely have to do is check if every primary door type has been used in the mission. Quotas are bad and restrict creativity so I'm not going to be imposing those, but I'll be happy with at least one level with any given kind of door

And here's a little piece of trivia - Lars Palmqvist, the vocalist of Scar Symmetry, has made an electronic song that would feel amazing for the hi-fi soundtrack of our mission! It actually sounds as if it was made for Descent! Check it out:
[youtube][/youtube]

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:27 am

That is a really cool music track... too bad we're unlikely to get it unless you or somebody else here somehow knows the guy.

I may be able to get something similar from Jay Hoeberechts... (my spelling's a work in progress here)

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:01 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:27 am That is a really cool music track... too bad we're unlikely to get it unless you or somebody else here somehow knows the guy.
I may be able to get something similar from Jay Hoeberechts... (my spelling's a work in progress here)

I think this is as easy as asking the guy for permission. He's a good sport about responding to messages on youtube.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:03 am

Hmmm... Well then we'll see we'll see
I can see you've already made a comment. That could make this kind of awkward... unless you're the one to ask I guess.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:10 pm

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:03 am Hmmm... Well then we'll see we'll see
I can see you've already made a comment. That could make this kind of awkward... unless you're the one to ask I guess.

I might do that then, maybe not now but yeah, I'll ask him. He shouldn't really mind.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:57 pm

Yeah, I think it might be a little bit hurtful if the first two people who comment on his video both want the music track for the same old game he probably hasn't even heard of. At the same time I would really like to include that song somewhere in the Sol system.
On the plus side I sent a message to Jay -- I've found at least three of his newer tracks that would work really well for some of our maps.

Oooh, as for doors... I can tell you that the only two I don't remember seeing in a specific map off the top of my head are door12 and door32... and I think those *are* there, I just don't remember which maps.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:52 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:57 pm Yeah, I think it might be a little bit hurtful if the first two people who comment on his video both want the music track for the same old game he probably hasn't even heard of. At the same time I would really like to include that song somewhere in the Sol system.
On the plus side I sent a message to Jay -- I've found at least three of his newer tracks that would work really well for some of our maps.

Oooh, as for doors... I can tell you that the only two I don't remember seeing in a specific map off the top of my head are door12 and door32... and I think those *are* there, I just don't remember which maps.

Yeah, I think I'll check this to make sure. All I know is that I want the D1 L12 door for the final level of the game, just like in the Eris level. In fact I have a pretty good idea for that level in mind, but I suppose that's a well-known fact. Naphtha expressed interest in making that level some time ago, so I guess we'll talk it over if he's still into it.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:04 am

I got the three songs I was looking for from Jay.

They're under the name porta2note. Enceladus, Orcus, and Dacol Futyl Tunnels officially have their own tracks now. And we get some old-school cred on the OST.

He also expressed interest in possibly making a level for us if he finds the time.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:08 pm

Sweet, great news!

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:24 pm

Oh, by the way... I was assembling an unofficial hi-fi soundtrack for Plutonian Shores, for a co-op game/stream that happened this evening. While I still can't get a dxa to work only for one mission, I did find a way to have the music tracks in the dxa take precedence over the midi tracks and sng in the hog. So that option's back on the table.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:56 pm

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:24 pm Oh, by the way... I was assembling an unofficial hi-fi soundtrack for Plutonian Shores, for a co-op game/stream that happened this evening. While I still can't get a dxa to work only for one mission, I did find a way to have the music tracks in the dxa take precedence over the midi tracks and sng in the hog. So that option's back on the table.

You mean it's toggleable without removing the files from the folder or what?

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:42 am

No, it would just be a case of dropping the dxa into the rebirth folder/taking it out. Or having an installer which does that.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:50 pm

I could probably write a simple batch file to do that. I could probably also write a shell script for non-Windows people, though I wouldn't be able to test it. (It's literally one line though - shouldn't be an issue

) I have a couple DXAs which simply get their extension changed when I don't need them.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:40 pm

Well I suppose it's a tenable solution. Just changing the extension is not as much hassle as there could be, especially since I don't believe many players will toggle this all that frequently.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:30 pm

Sounds like I might get a few more songs from Pumo for D1.5 within the next few weeks. Including the one I originally wanted for one of my maps, so, claws crossed...

Parabolicus · Post by **Parabolicus** » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:07 pm

I was asked to do a level for this, I'm told. It'll probably end up being level 9 in the Solar System, but it's delayed for me until I finish my other work, so I'm not 100% sure if that spot should be reserved for me just yet.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:02 am

I think I figured out a better way to put my misgivings about adding the unique door sounds from the Descent 2 demo into words.
The point of restoring Descent 1 robot and door sound effects to this mission and restoring D1 weapon stats, if I'm not much mistaken, was so that players would hear the sound effects they originally associated with those objects when they first played Descent, and be able to use their weapons like they did the first they played Descent.
So if that's the case, adding in the door sounds from the Descent 2 demo might go against that philosophy. I'd wager that most players of our mission don't even remember that the D2 demo even had unique door sounds, and the sounds their minds associated with the door types in question are the sounds that were used in retail Descent 2. It could undermine the idea of combining the two games to combine D1 with D2 with Dwhat-the-heck-is-that-now.

All that aside I'm still willing to give it a try and see what I think after playing -- haven't had the opportunity to do it yet. If the new version of the sound patch has been released to the public maybe we could try and get some opinions from our potential prey---erm, players, as to how they like it and whether or not they think it's going to work for a big mission with these goals. If they do, that would shut me up real good.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:37 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:02 am I think I figured out a better way to put my misgivings about adding the unique door sounds from the Descent 2 demo into words.
The point of restoring Descent 1 robot and door sound effects to this mission and restoring D1 weapon stats, if I'm not much mistaken, was so that players would hear the sound effects they originally associated with those objects when they first played Descent, and be able to use their weapons like they did the first they played Descent.
So if that's the case, adding in the door sounds from the Descent 2 demo might go against that philosophy. I'd wager that most players of our mission don't even remember that the D2 demo even had unique door sounds, and the sounds their minds associated with the door types in question are the sounds that were used in retail Descent 2. It could undermine the idea of combining the two games to combine D1 with D2 with Dwhat-the-heck-is-that-now.

All that aside I'm still willing to give it a try and see what I think after playing -- haven't had the opportunity to do it yet. If the new version of the sound patch has been released to the public maybe we could try and get some opinions from our potential prey---erm, players, as to how they like it and whether or not they think it's going to work for a big mission with these goals. If they do, that would shut me up real good.

Aye, I think I tried to keep the number of these sounds to a minimum, but I'm very much for reverting them if necessary. It all depends on the reception.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:16 pm

Here's a thought! I'm gonna wrack my brain and see if I can remember exactly which D2 robots appeared on each planet.
Obviously this isn't something to copy exactly in a project like this, but it still may be good information to have at hand when we want to recreate the same "feeling".
I'll separate out bots that only appear in "special" areas on the planet, or ones that were specific to Descent Maximum. And I'll not include bosses 'cuz they're kinda obvious

Zeta Aquilae:
PEST
PIG
IT Droid
Smelter
Diamond Claw
Sidearm/Modula
Lou Guard
Thief

Quartzon:
PEST/Mine-Layer/Smart Mines
FOX Attack Bot
ITSC
Diamond Claw/Cloak
Sidearm/Modula
Seeker
Class 2 Supervisor Robot
Thief
-------
IT Droid (only one room)
Omega Defense Spawn (Secret level only, mine layer only)
Lou Guard (Descent Maximum only)

Brimspark:
TRN Racer
Red Hornet
PIG
Smelter/Cloak/Mine Layer
Diamond Claw/Cloak
Lou Guard
Seeker
E-Bandit
Omega Defense Spawn/Guppy
Bulk Destroyer
Thief
Red Fatty Jr
-------
Modula (Only show up in one secret compartment)
ITSC (Only spawns from one matcen in one room)

Limefrost Spiral:
Ice Spindle
IT Droid
ITSC
Smelter (Mine-Layer only)
Diamond Claw/Cloak (more than other planets)
FOX Attack Bot
Sidearm/Modula
Lou Guard
Seeker
Bulk Destroyer
Omega Defense Spawn/Guppy/Smart Mines
Thief (limited amount)
-------
Red Hornet (only one room)
PEST (Descent Maximum only)

Baloris Prime:
BPER
Red Hornet
PIG
Smelter/Cloak/Mine-Layer/Cloaked Mine-Layer (mostly in snipe mode)
Diamond Claw/Cloak
PEST (Mine-Layer only)
E-Bandit
Omega Defense Spawn (no guppies IIRC)
Bulk Destroyer
Red Fatty Jr
Diamond Claw/Cloak (limited amount)
Thief (more than other planets)

Puuma Sphere/Tycho Brahe:
Concussion Spider
Spawn
Lou Guard
Boarshed
E-Bandit
Omega Defense Spawn/Guppy/Smart Mines
Diamond Claw/Cloak (limited amount)
-------
Thief (only one)
Red Hornet (only one room)
Modula (only one room)
BPER (Descent Maximum only)
PEST (Descent Maximum only)

One other thing to remember is that on every map where Guppy is used as a mine-layer, regular omega defense spawn would occasionally be used as mine-layers too.

Vertigo Only (to the best of my fallible memory):

Varied/Group A:
IT droid mine layer
ITSC
TRN Racer

Water:
TRN Racer
Ice Spindle
BPER

Fire:
PEST
BPER
Concussion Spider
Spawn
Boarshed
Ice Spindle (I know, right?)

Ice:
Concussion Spider
Spawn

Alien 1/Desert
IT droid
Seeker
Guppy

Alien 2/Puuma:
None IIRC

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:18 pm

...I actually kinda like the idea. We probably shouldn't copy that (as you said), but I think it would be interesting to skew robot choice based on this list, or maybe any robots that would fit on the list. Would also assist in giving each system its own unique flavor.

Speaking of robot thoughts, Berryjon just released level 8 of his D2 playthrough, and they made an interesting comment - On boss levels, leave out the thief and generally reduce difficulty slightly. Let the boss fight be the hard part of the level.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:27 am

I noticed that my first time through too... only real exception seems to be level 20.
Though there were a couple that seemed to focus on their own unique challenges, like the way level 4 had swarms of small robots in really tight tunnels, or level 12 and all its Red Fatty Jr syndrome.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:48 pm

I'm well aware of robot theming and the Counterstrike levels will definitely have an overrepresentation of robots colored to match, I can promise you that.

On the same token, Puuma Sphere will have lots of small hulks and class 2 platformers. The latter will probably make that system even more unbearable than in vanilla, but we'll see how it turns out. Anyway, I've been very slowly populating level 6 but have been getting super distracted by other games and stuff overall. I hope I can muster enough time and focus to get this done at long last >_> I seem to do much better when populating the levels in practice than just drawing a list of robots to use and going by it. Keeping track will definitely help, but I prefer to go by feeling for now. What's certain is that the Class 1 Drillers will be debuting in this level, though probably not in overwhelming numbers so as to make the difficulty spike noticeable but not unfair. The previous inclusion of quad lasers has been postponed, so this level debuts the Spreadfire instead, so part of the difficulty will be the restricted aresenal anyway.

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:38 pm

Since the end is in sight I had this thought (actually someone else probably had this thought several pages ago) - What if we assembled a 6-level demo pulling two levels from each chapter?

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:56 am

There's been some back and forth on that idea with no real conclusion.
I think it might be better to just let somebody who has access do a stream with a few levels from each section.

And X, thing is when you look at the actual lists it's not entirely about things like colour -- especially when you see things like the E-Bandits on puuma, or how IT droids were almost entirely absent from quartzon. That's why I think a list like that could be useful -- helps figuring out where/how to deviate, and what sorts of things you might be able to get away with once or twice to add spice. Since we've got so many more enemy types to work with, the nuances of an example like this are good to keep in the back of one's mind while one arranges bots "intuitively".

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:53 am

I recall fighting the thief on every level in Counterstrike... I don't even recall any exceptions (apart from most secret levels, obviously). Leaving them out of boss levels would have made sense.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:21 am

I remember 8 levels without thief. I think it was 4, 8, 12, 15, 16, 22, 23 and 24. And then there's level 1 where thief was optional.
Vertigo I believe had a thief on every level, even bosses.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:44 pm

Did I have a modded d2.hog or something?

I've had to go thief-chasing in most, if not all, of those levels. But those are distant memories... I don't think I've seen it in recent co-op games.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:38 am

I also think the boss levels were thief-free, then again I only made it to level 21 on Insane cold start no-death. I'm technically still attempting to progress further, but no luck so far. It'll probably be a long time before I beat level 21, but I relish the challenge

I could come up with an Excel list for robots and where to put them, I already did one for the music but even still it's a bit hard to keep track and decide once and for all which songs should go for which levels (since we have usage quotas - most songs will be used twice, but certain ones only once). The song names being listed in the OP of this thread doesn't help either. We should probably consolidate and have the data only in one place accessible to everyone for revisions.

EDIT: The file's name is "descent_tracker" and it's in the Other Files directory. The music tracker has indeed been established, but I haven't done the one for the robots yet. I'll try to do this soonish

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:56 am

Ok, I've created a robot tracker with assigned threat ratings (1-10) and each level will just make a tally of robot quantity multiplied by their threat ratings to get a final score as a rough estimate of the level's threat rating. This tracker can also easily serve to plan robot lineups for future levels etc. I'll also try adding conditional formatting that tints the fields where the robots' names are several colors to indicate their level of representation in the entire mission, but I'll get around to that later.

What I'd like to ask of you is to take a second look at the difficulty ratings I assigned to the robots. I've played a lot of D1 and D2, but unforunately not so much of D2 with D1 robots in it, so I might be underestimating the older robots somewhat. It's mentioned in the comments, but the threat rating is meant for identical circumstances (i.e. open space dogfights & no Snipe mode enabled) - right now the calculations do not account for snipe mode, so the difficulty will be understated for levels containing robots in snipe mode. But yeah, please take a look at the values and feel free to modify them if you feel you have better figures in mind. I've accounted for the first five levels and sure enough - each next one is harder than the previous, with a small let-up in level 5 - which is fine, since it's got the boss. But yeah, the threat values were only off the top of my head, so once again, someone seasoned please feel free to tweak them if you feel the're not accurate.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:35 am

The only three I recall being significantly more dangerous in snipe mode than they are normally are smelter, BPER and the puuma spider. I'm not counting the infernal tactical droids, ITSCs, or Sniper NGs since it's kinda their normal mode.
I am at work today but I'll see if I can make some time to look over that sheet soon.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:44 am

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:35 am The only three I recall being significantly more dangerous in snipe mode than they are normally are smelter, BPER and the puuma spider. I'm not counting the infernal tactical droids, ITSCs, or Sniper NGs since it's kinda their normal mode.
I am at work today but I'll see if I can make some time to look over that sheet soon.

Ok could you do me a favor and take a gander at the file anyway? I'd really appreciate someone double checking those values.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Wed May 06, 2020 6:20 pm

Alright folks, I know I've been insufferably lazy and all, but I do keep tabs on things - I've noticed that someone stealthily put up Level 21 on Dropbox. Not sure who NULL is, but gotta say, the level is quite badarse. Well, guess it's a lesson for me not to slack off so much! Well, recently I've been suffering of that gamer boredom, so might as well return to making some goddamn Descent >_> Anyway, who might NULL be? I've got my suspicions after seeing the level, but can't be sure due to the nick

LightWolf · Post by **LightWolf** » Wed May 06, 2020 10:10 pm

In the r/Descent Discord server, Parabolicus mentioned pushing a level 21 after talking about open D1.5 slots... (#descent-sp)

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun May 17, 2020 5:27 pm

I just created an arena that was somewhat based on stills that I remember from a dream I had years ago. It's quite suitable for the Tycho Brahe boss (after I add some more secret compartments and caches), but it looks a bit plain (cube & rectangle based) and has a cube count that could probably be reduced quite significantly. It's got added difficulty built in due to requiring a puzzle to unlock the exit, and rather difficult to find and untelegraphed goody caches, but the number of cloaks and invulns should be sufficient.

I think this boss arena could work for the Beta Ceti level meant to host the Tycho Brahe boss - though I would be cool with someone else making the rest of the level. We already have one collab level with Naphtha, and it turned out nice.

https://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/8N7 ... iKo004mxLg

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:51 pm

I'm making a few changes to the soundtrack folder over on google drive -- mainly replacing "Claw Marks" with another song from three years later where I took some similar ideas and, I think, did better things with them. It still has some "mercury-style" jangly undistorted guitars so no worries about that, if anyone but me was even crazy enough to even think of it.
And then removing a few tracks of my own that I've just grown less fond of over the last few years. Will probably replace those with other peoples' tracks eventually, if other people are interested in providing us with tracks

So if someone from here is going onto that folder and feeling this sneaking suspicion like something they knew was supposed to be there isn't there, that's the reason.

Edit: also updated one of the 2018 tracks with a remaster that fixes some issues with feedback on one of the instruments.