If Americans thought our Covid restrictions were draconian...

[Tunnelcat]

...it's not even close to the Hell the Chinese government has inflicted on the people of Shanghai. And here conservatives thought vaccines were bad.



Then there's the jumpers.

[vision]

I'm deeply skeptical of reports from Shanghai. One of my friends lives in Shanghai and she hasn't mentioned anything resembling the news reports we see here and I'm inclined to believe that a lot of it is anti-China propaganda. Shanghai has 25 million people and I think what's being reported are edge cases framed to look like disaster in China. Also, you have a terrible record when it comes to providing good sources and you've repeatedly fallen for the most obvious right-wing propaganda in the past, so forgive me if I doubt a report from the Hindustan Times with quick editing, bold text overlays, and dramatic music underneath.

[Spidey]

I too have a friend in Shanghai, and she says Russia would never kill civilians and China would never throw people out of their apartment buildings to create quarantine zones.

[Tunnelcat]

Similar reports below. My intent wasn't to spread right wing propaganda vision. I actually saw this on NBC first, so I should have posted their link originally. It's just plain creepy and that's why I posted it. It also sounds like it was a spontaneous one night event where people voiced their frustrations after a couple of people started the process. By the way vision, are you FOR China and the Chi Coms, because that nation is a horrifying nightmare for any individual who wants even a modicum of freedom, something my immigrant Chinese friend absolutely HATES and was the reason he immigrated HERE. I only wanted to show what a despotic autocratic nation can do to it's populace since so many Americans bitched and moaned at our own government imposed health mandates, especially vaccines and masking, things meant to protect society from death and illness but was NO WHERE NEAR an imposition of our precious freedoms. Trumptards are nothing but a bunch of self centered wussies that define "freedom" as a crazy Libertarian ideal: "I should be able to do whatever I want whenever I want, screw everyone else". Our efforts to stop Covid were nothing compared to what China is now doing with their horrifying and ultimately failing "No Covid" policy.

And related to this issue, there are now going to be even more supply chain issues and product shortages BECAUSE of China closing everything down. If a country wants to be part of a world economy, it can't close down it's borders or isolate it's populace, especially if you're a country that manufactures a lot of the world's products. And it can't declare war on it's neighbors for no reason other than vanity (Russia).

[vision]

By the way vision, are you FOR China and the Chi Coms, because that nation is a horrifying nightmare for any individual who wants even a modicum of freedom, something my immigrant Chinese friend absolutely HATES and was the reason he immigrated HERE.

I keep seeing the same few clips posted about Shanghai's lockdown, all of it looks like edge cases and not something you can say generally about the situation in the city. It's the same with BLM riots in Portland, anyone with a brain wouldn't believe every resident of the city was a member of AntiFa -- it's a localized problem. Don't make general statements about a population from small sample sizes. Of course your friend who immigrated here hates China. That's called selection bias. My friend in Shanghai also has bias. She doesn't like the Chinese government, but she's also in a position where it doesn't affect her like others. She's got a PhD and skills that have allowed here to also live in the US and Australia, and she's basically just looking to settle down in one of those three places, preferably Australia because she doesn't see the US as a huge improvement over China. So no, I don't believe living in China is a nightmare.

And my friend with the PhD isn't my only close Chinese friend. I used to hang out with a girl who grew up in Guangzhou and moved to the US during high school. She definitely preferred the US because she was basically a criminal and did lots of illegal stuff. I think it was easier to live that exciting lifestyle here rather than China, so there is your "freedom" I guess. Even though she preferred the US, she never assimilated and (with the exception of me) basically only socialized with other Chinese. We lost touch about 15 years ago after she went to jail for a while. Think she lives in Houston now.

[Jeff250]

I think you can deconstruct virtually all news as being just edge cases. People who die from COVID? Edge cases. Subway shooter? Barely anyone in New York was shot. Russia invading Ukraine? Why aren't we talking more about the countries that Russia hasn't invaded?

[Tunnelcat]

Point taken since your friend is in the middle of all this and is obviously in a position to know. But there still are a lot of reports of people going bonkers in those lock downs, or people being displaced from their homes to quarantine or even some starving for lack of food. Besides, the E&C was a little too quiet.

I do find that your "criminal" Chinese friend liked the U.S. because she could "do illegal stuff" very interesting. That's kind of telling about society in OUR country and it doesn't bode well for the Dems in the next election right now. You probably just gave every conservative out there right now who loves the "Law and Order" political meme a big fat wet dream. Now waiting for woodchip's gloating to start in. Currently when I watch the TV news, the normally saturated with Big Pharma drug ads are being supplanted with obnoxious campaign ads because our Dem Senator is retiring and the Dem governor position is up for grabs. There is one main talking point ALL these conservatives are blathering, that they can do better than those Radical Left Wing Libs when it comes to curbing all the crime, protecting the children and funding the police. They're pretty much in lockstep on that talking point right now and they're certainly banking on a public renaissance about the fear of crime especially with actual crime on the rise. The Dems are all trying to be positive. The Repubs are taking a deep dive into negative territory and enjoying it. They''re even wading into the Culture Wars on the transgender athlete issue with full blown hate, no discussion, no compromise. Bastards.

As for Chinese friends, MY Chinese friend came to the U.S. for a college education and other reasons, besides the fact he hates the Communist Party and their rigid education system and didn't want to live there. It's his love of guns, something you definitely can't own in China. He fought in the Vietnam War for the U.S. and he hated the Chinese-backed NVC. The stories he could tell about his guerrilla warfare experience would curl your hair. But the main thing is he still owns some of his military weaponry, along with an impressive arsenal of legally purchased weapons and ammunition. This guy is a staunch conservative and could start and fight a war. So what does that tell you about THIS country? That criminal minds and gun lovers favor the U.S. as a place to live and that the two pretty much mutually reinforce and support each other in some weird twisted fashion? Something is seriously wrong with this situation.

Jeff250, your Covid death rate I take issue with, especially since I'm older and more vulnerable. The Chinese may be draconian and drastic with their Covid measures, but they've had better results (if they can be believed from Chinese sources) than the rest of the world with Covid deaths. But is doing something so drastic worth it to a free society?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_ ... _territory

Deaths per 100,000 population.

[Jeff250]

Jeff250, your Covid death rate I take issue with, especially since I'm older and more vulnerable.

In case my sarcasm/satire/etc. didn't make it through, my point was to demonstrate that edge cases *are* important.

[vision]

I do find that your "criminal" Chinese friend liked the U.S. because she could "do illegal stuff" very interesting. That's kind of telling about society in OUR country and it doesn't bode well for the Dems in the next election right now.

Just to be clear, this has almost nothing to do with the different types of governance. The US isn't "more free" in that sense, but rather it's the difference in social pressure between individualist and collectivist societies. After all, my friend did go to jail eventually. And even though it was drugs and guns that drew attention from the authorities, it was counterfeit goods she sold in Chinatown that got the FBI involved. Capitalism has rules you know, and if you don't play by them, you go to prison unless you can pay off the right people.

[Tunnelcat]

And therein lies the unfairness with our Capitalist system. Those who can afford to pay off the right people have the power to get all the prestige and things they want, even if they do it through illegal means. Although to be fair, that happens in just about every political system, even communist.

Oh and sorry about that Jeff250.

[Ferno]

"edge cases"

[vision]

"edge cases"

Context?

[Spidey]

China would never construct barriers around entire housing complexes...lies, all lies I say.

[Ferno]

"edge cases"

Context?

hanghai has 25 million people and I think what's being reported are edge cases framed to look like disaster in China.

your words.

[vision]

Trying to figure out why everyone is so outraged. Seeing a couple videos with no context isn't helping. I get that "China bad" but I don't feel like this is a big deal and certainly don't know why it's taking up space in people's brains.

[Ferno]

People are being barricaded in their homes, starving and dying, and you're wondering why people are outraged?

People are being treated like you see in the video and you're wondering why people are outraged?

I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

[vision]

People are being barricaded in their homes, starving and dying, and you're wondering why people are outraged?

Why be outraged? No seriously, why? What should I do about China's policy of containing a disease by these means? On the scale of human cruelty this is like a 1 or a 2. I'm sorry, I can't get upset about this. Shanghai is not collapsing. Lockdowns are restricted to certain wards only. There are business open in other parts of the city and people are generally just staying home. I'm not going to be bothered by a couple videos of a few dozen people out of 25 million who are clashing with authorities. If anything it's remarkable how well everyone is handling it. I won't make a judgement based on anti-Chinese propaganda, besides I've got a canary who is there in the city right now, when she says things are bad then I'll start to worry.

[Ferno]

anti-chinese propaganda....

The ends justify the means?

"I haven't heard anything from my friend, therefore I'll ignore what I'm seeing"?

And you look at this and think it's okay?

Holy ★■◆●. I'm going to stay far away from you.

[Vander]

Maybe if China had a trucker convoy they'd know freedom.

[vision]

anti-chinese propaganda....

The ends justify the means?

"I haven't heard anything from my friend, therefore I'll ignore what I'm seeing"?

And you look at this and think it's okay?

Holy ★■◆●. I'm going to stay far away from you.

Yes, please stay away if you want to let emotions rule your perceptions. This is in no way advocating the way China treats its citizens, but I also have a clear eyed view of what's going on there. And yes I am absolutely going to trust the word of a friend I've know for years who is actually in the city (and has no love of the government) rather than a report from another country with dramatic music underneath. You should always take first hand reports over second hand ones, especially if those reports are susceptible to bias. Again, you haven't convinced me why I should be outraged. Yes, China bad. What more should I do? Lie awake at night thinking about how bad China is? Why not how Israel treats Palestinians? Or how the most vulnerable people are murdered in the DROC? Starvation in the DPRK? Maybe you can help me draw the outrage line...

[woodchip]

Jeff250, your Covid death rate I take issue with, especially since I'm older and more vulnerable. The Chinese may be draconian and drastic with their Covid measures, but they've had better results (if they can be believed from Chinese sources) than the rest of the world with Covid deaths. But is doing something so drastic worth it to a free society?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_ ... _territory

Deaths per 100,000 population.

Deaths per hundred is a deceiving way to look at it, Observed case - fatality ratio gives a different standing:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
look at first chart

[woodchip]

And to you Chi-com lovers, explain yourself to a organ harvested Uyghur


















u

[Tunnelcat]

We just reached over a million deaths due to Covid woodchip. There's no getting around that statistic. I'm betting that number is also under reported as well since many people died at home, were older and were buried without autopsies by their families. The U.S. lost more people during Covid-19 than during the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic, about 650,000. So I'd say that Covid-19 was far worse. Remember, people are still dying from new Covid variants today, so it's not over by a long shot.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... istory.htm

I don't know if this should be a celebration or a sad state of affairs, but North Korea is now being ravaged by Covid, probably brought in by just one asymptomatic Chinese trading person. One can only hope their leaders get hit with Covid and die first, but somehow I doubt it. Despots never die before they can do some serious world damage.

[vision]

And to you Chi-com lovers, explain yourself to a organ harvested Uyghur

There is no one here who supports the Chinese government and the treatment of Uyghurs is appalling. It's a similar situation to how Israel treats Palestine. China and Israel are both massively powerful, illegally occupying forces committing genocide against a Muslim culture. I stand with Uyghurs the way I stand with Palestine.

[Top Gun]

"Chi-Coms." What ★■◆●ing century is Woody living in?

[Ferno]

anti-chinese propaganda....

The ends justify the means?

"I haven't heard anything from my friend, therefore I'll ignore what I'm seeing"?

And you look at this and think it's okay?

Holy ★■◆●. I'm going to stay far away from you.

Yes, please stay away if you want to let emotions rule your perceptions. This is in no way advocating the way China treats its citizens, but I also have a clear eyed view of what's going on there. And yes I am absolutely going to trust the word of a friend I've know for years who is actually in the city (and has no love of the government) rather than a report from another country with dramatic music underneath. You should always take first hand reports over second hand ones, especially if those reports are susceptible to bias. Again, you haven't convinced me why I should be outraged. Yes, China bad. What more should I do? Lie awake at night thinking about how bad China is? Why not how Israel treats Palestinians? Or how the most vulnerable people are murdered in the DROC? Starvation in the DPRK? Maybe you can help me draw the outrage line...

No. You don't have a clear perception. You have a narrow perception and a scary lack of empathy.

Call it what you will; I'm calling it what it is.

[vision]

No. You don't have a clear perception. You have a narrow perception and a scary lack of empathy.

I think you've lost sight of this thread. It seems most people here imagine some sort of weird caricature when talking about the Chinese government. Like there is some sort of Big Brother type of environment that is somehow different than the same surveillance we have in the US.

Werid fact #1: The people largely support the government. I remember being surprised when my friend in Shanghai said the people protesting in Hong Kong were ridiculous and that they think they aren't Chinese and they should stop causing trouble. The western values we see reflected in Honk Kong's people are not representative of the majority of Chinese. Weird fact #2: China has even more troublemakers than the United States. You know all the jerkwads that refuse to wear masks, cause scenes on airplanes, and cough and spit on people during the pandemic? China has even more of them. And these people don't get jailed or "disappeared," partly because of Weird fact #3: China's government is surprisingly ineffectual in some ways and can't seem to compel more than 60% of it's population to get vaccinated. Yes, that's right, this scary authoritarian government can't convince a massive portion of their population to take a vaccine during a pandemic. I'm sure you thought all Chinese citizens were forced to get a needle in the arm, right? After all, China loves to harvest organs, so injecting people with drugs should be easy right? It doesn't happen, and given that Roe vs Wade might be overturned soon it looks like Chinese people have more body autonomy than us. And finally, Weird fact#4: China is much more like the EU than the US. There are major cultural differences between regions of China, and Chinese unification has been tenuous for it's entire existence. With a population and land area that large, it's looks more like the Roman Empire than a cohesive country, lot's of corruption and people acting shitty, both government and citizens alike.

So, let's say we have a situation were there is a highly contagious virus spreading and nearly half the people simply refuse to take preventative measures? You wind up with a situation like this. The half of people trying to stop the virus by imposing themselves on the minority that don't. That's what we are seeing here.

[Jeff250]

Like there is some sort of Big Brother type of environment that is somehow different than the same surveillance we have in the US.

Because the censorship and surveillance environment in China is far more extensive than whatever North American examples you might have in mind, and you are falsely equivocating the two.

Werid fact #1: [...] I remember being surprised when my friend in Shanghai said the people protesting in Hong Kong were ridiculous and that they think they aren't Chinese and they should stop causing trouble. The western values we see reflected in Honk Kong's people are not representative of the majority of Chinese.

There are two reasons for why someone might come to different moral conclusions. One is that they have different values. Another is that they have different facts. For instance, if you observe human sacrifice, you might conclude that those participating in the ritual have widely different values than you. However, an alternate and probably stronger hypothesis is that they have similar values as you but are acting under a widely different factual belief, such as that the sacrifice is necessary for the continued existence of their civilization. Under similar factual beliefs, you might even do the same.

Thus, while a difference in values may play some role, I believe it is premature to conclude that the majority of Chinese must have widely different values than us for not supporting the Hong Kong democracy movement. I believe a stronger hypothesis is that the majority of Chinese have not been receiving accurate facts, about China, about the Communist Party, about Hong Kong, and about the nature of the democracy movement, on account of the pervasive censorship regime that restricts Chinese media, controls what can be said over Chinese Internet platforms, and blocks access to foreign media and Internet platforms which do not implement the necessary political censorship required by law.

If Chinese don't value democracy, then why does the PRC spend so much time, energy, and money pretending to be one?

Weird fact #3: China's government is surprisingly ineffectual in some ways and can't seem to compel more than 60% of it's population to get vaccinated. Yes, that's right, this scary authoritarian government can't convince a massive portion of their population to take a vaccine during a pandemic.

I can't substantiate this. While there may be some subgroups with only 60% vaccination, China would appear to overall have much higher vaccination rates than the United States and even Canada.

[vision]

There are two reasons for why someone might come to different moral conclusions. One is that they have different values. Another is that they have different facts.

We're quickly driving into territory neither of us can comment first hand, but I think it's even more complicated than Chinese people having different facts. My friend in Shanghai is a scientist and has lived in Australia and the US as well as China. In her own words the Chinese government "lies all the time" and one of the reasons she likes the US is because she has more access to information. But this access hasn't changed her mind on Hong Kong democracy, or COVID restrictions, or anything you want to attach a moral implication to. Nor has it made her think the US is a better place to than China. In a lot of ways it really doesn't matter what the Chinese government says and whether it calls itself democratic or communist or whatever. There is a deep and pervasive cultural and social pressure on Chinese people to behave a certain way, to act "Chinese." This isn't dictated from the government through propaganda, it seems to stretch all the way back before Confucius. What being Chinese exactly means is a moving target for sure, but something they hold to high regard. I'm at the limits of what more I can say about the subject, but in my experience with several Chinese friends they really do have different values.

[woodchip]

vision, try using this metric...how many Hong Kong citizens prefer the Chinese govt over the prior British rule.

[Tunnelcat]

The difference is, Hong Kong residents have tasted freedom for years and preferred it. The mainland Chinese have not and that's what their repressive controlling government fears, loss of power and control. But why are you concerned about the Chinese woodchip? You've already supported a power hungry demented man in the U.S. who's demonstrated he wants full control of the country, even if it means destroying the Constitution in an illegal attempted coup and encouraging a mob of Fascists kill the VP when he wouldn't go along with it.

[woodchip]

The difference is, Hong Kong residents have tasted freedom for years and preferred it. The mainland Chinese have not and that's what their repressive controlling government fears, loss of power and control. But why are you concerned about the Chinese woodchip? You've already supported a power hungry demented man in the U.S. who's demonstrated he wants full control of the country, even if it means destroying the Constitution in an illegal attempted coup and encouraging a mob of Fascists kill the VP when he wouldn't go along with it.

Show me exactly where trump incited the mob and who incited action against SCOTUS.

[vision]

vision, try using this metric...how many Hong Kong citizens prefer the Chinese govt over the prior British rule.

The comparison proves my point further that there are a lot of cultural differences in China that make it in-cohesive. It's doesn't matter how many in Hong Kong prefer to be British. We don't have anything to compare their experience to in the United States. It's probably closer to how people in Puerto Rico are divided about becoming a US state, but even that is a big stretch. China has several autonomous regions and those are not the equivalent of let's say Guam or the Virgin Islands. The situation in Hong Kong is a lot more complicated than "Chynah bad," the way US media will have you believe. Xi Jinping is not the emperor. Places like Hong Kong, Tibet, and Xinjiang are not really like US states. Also, don't forget that what we know as China today was an absolute mess less than 100 years ago and didn't start to resemble the country of today until after WWII.

[Tunnelcat]

The difference is, Hong Kong residents have tasted freedom for years and preferred it. The mainland Chinese have not and that's what their repressive controlling government fears, loss of power and control. But why are you concerned about the Chinese woodchip? You've already supported a power hungry demented man in the U.S. who's demonstrated he wants full control of the country, even if it means destroying the Constitution in an illegal attempted coup and encouraging a mob of Fascists kill the VP when he wouldn't go along with it.

Show me exactly where trump incited the mob and who incited action against SCOTUS.

He asked them to go the the Capital "Fight like Hell" because the election had been stolen from him, WHICH WAS AND STILL IS, A BIG ★■◆●ing LIE. The only thing the prick DIDN'T DO was join the fray like the chickenshit coward he really is. Here is it from the mouths of the rioters.



Oh, and there's this little fact. It was Mike Pence who called in the military to quell the riot, NOT TRUMP! Nor were the rioters peaceful.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pent ... anel-says/

[woodchip]

He asked them to go the the Capital "Fight like Hell" because the election had been stolen from him, WHICH WAS AND STILL IS, A BIG ★■◆●ing LIE. The only thing the prick DIDN'T DO was join the fray like the chickenshit coward he really is. Here is it from the mouths of the rioters.

TC, if Trump gave a speech, the speech would of been recorded. Why is his speech not being presented instead of "Eye witness" accounts? This is why you and your "clear" thinking liberal friends are so easily manipulated.

[Tunnelcat]

Trump did give a speech, at that rally right before those morons stormed the Capital. His supporters interpreted the words in his speech as a call to take action and violence on behalf of himself, Trump. Those people in the hearings even said that was so in their depositions. All of this bolstered by his BIG LIE, that the election was stolen from him. NOT! Here are some direct quotes from that last boner rally. What's worse, you're not even commenting on the fact that many of these "nice people" where groups of violent White Supremacists and Neo Nazis, a bunch of lowlife Fascist pricks supporting an ideology that we as a nation fought a world war over 80 years ago just to rid the world of this poisonous and hateful ideology. Do you now support THEM? Geezus!

“And we fight. We fight like hell And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

“All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical-left Democrats, which is what they’re doing … We will never give up, we will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.”

“Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about … We will stop the steal.”

“Because you’ll never take back our country with weakness, you have to show strength and you have to be strong.”

It is YOU that are being manipulated by Trump, sucker. Wake up and get a handle that cognitive dissonance that's locked up your mind and the deluded minds of Trump lovers everywhere. You're so focused on a strong leader who will fight your hated left that you can't even see this man for the farce he is. You want a strong leader? I'm all for it, even a smart sensible Republican, but Trump and anyone who supports him certainly ain't it. He's a coward, a manipulative compulsive liar, power hungry to his core and a greedy self-serving moron who only gives a damn about himself. If he and you were stuck in a fox hole being attacked by an enemy, he'd be the one cowering on the bottom waiting for you to save his sorry ass. He won't even concede that he LOST the election, even after nearly ALL of the voter fraud court cases he and his minions brought before the courts were either tossed out or dismissed without merit, many by Republican appointed judges. Even those farcical vote recounts in several states found nothing. Some even found more votes for Biden. Trump only wants one thing, for YOU and people like you to put him back in office, where he will destroy our precious democracy once and for all and take revenge on those who wronged him while doing it. It won't be inflation or high gas prices that get Trump back in office, because if Americans even had a modicum of economics 101, they'd realize that Biden doesn't really have any say over fixing that. That means that it'll be YOU and every other Trump lover who votes for Trump in 2024 based on a deluded self-serving lie that will be to blame for making this ★■◆● President again.

https://www.wmtw.com/article/jan-6-witn ... e/40328578

https://oracycambridge.org/on-donald-tr ... issonance/

[woodchip]

So instead of letting someone else interpret trumps speech I decided to listen to it . You too can listen can listen to it here:

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/jan-6- ... JJhhMh2MA6

Now if any of you can find where Trump encouraged people to riot, vid is time stamped so post here where that section is...maybe I missed it.

[Top Gun]

Why should any of us bother to do that work when you're not mentally competent enough to see it yourself? Don't fret your decrepit Boomer brain over it, the people who know what they're doing are laying out the case against the traitor.

[woodchip]

This your night to take drugs and pretend nothing bad is happening. You miss the part where I said I watched it and now all you got is aspersion casting. My, my...you are indeed mentally a arid wasteland.

[Tunnelcat]

I did the search work so none of us would have to listen to hours of Trump laden superlative hate filled drivel. If you can't read and understand the subtext in those 4 pertinent statements I posted above, which I highlighted in orange to make it easy, I can't fix the blindness to the truth and the idiotic devotion to your orange God.