At What Cost

[woodchip]

While you all fondle the idea of EV and cell phones, you ever wonder about the materials for the batteries? Cobalt is the one material that is most needed for lithium batteries. And who has it? The African Republic of Congo. And who controls it? The Chi-Coms bought up the major mines. And do they take care of the workers?:

"They dig in absolutely subhuman, gut-wrenching conditions for a dollar a day, feeding cobalt up the supply chain into all the phones, all the tablets, and especially electric cars."

Like a good liberal would say,"Think about the children" when you go to buy a EV or cell phone.

[TheWhat]

Who are you quoting? And why are you just randomly blaming liberals for exploiting natural resources in third world countries? Isn't that an everybody thing? Somehow I think I'm being baited and I wouldn't even consider myself a liberal. And also Capt. Save-A-Ho has been putting a rock on his pure princess' finger for centuries now, they couldn't all have been liberal scum.

[Krom]

Buy a standard range Tesla, the batteries used in those are already cobalt free and have been for a couple years (LFP, lithium-iron-phosphate). And actually most EV battery suppliers used in America including Tesla are moving to cobalt free entirely even for their high nickel chemistries and have already cut off the African mines because of their horrible human rights practices (probably best to still avoid stuff with batteries made in China though).

But why do you care about child slave labor in some shady mining operation somewhere on another continent? THAT IS THE FREE MARKET AT WORK! Turns out child slave labor is REALLY ★■◆●ing CHEAP! Letting that happen is exactly the kind of total deregulation you are always blindly voting to support when you ★■◆● another ballot in the box for a Republican. Didn't you know stopping horrible slave labor practices is communist/socialist? Do not pretend to give a ★■◆● about children in some other poor country when all you ever do in practice is make it worse.

You actually want to do something about it? Tell your representative to support legislation similar to the "green new deal".

[Top Gun]

You're posting more dementia-addled ramblings than usual. Slow week?

[TigerRaptor]

Woody post your full name and address. I want to send you a clown costume, baby toy phone, and a cozy couple you can drive around in.

[woodchip]

Who are you quoting? And why are you just randomly blaming liberals for exploiting natural resources in third world countries? Isn't that an everybody thing? Somehow I think I'm being baited and I wouldn't even consider myself a liberal. And also Capt. Save-A-Ho has been putting a rock on his pure princess' finger for centuries now, they couldn't all have been liberal scum.

Where did I blame Liberal

[Ferno]

Who are you quoting? And why are you just randomly blaming liberals for exploiting natural resources in third world countries? Isn't that an everybody thing? Somehow I think I'm being baited and I wouldn't even consider myself a liberal. And also Capt. Save-A-Ho has been putting a rock on his pure princess' finger for centuries now, they couldn't all have been liberal scum.

Where did I blame Liberal

Like a good liberal would say,"Think about the children" when you go to buy a EV or cell phone.

Right here, clownshoes. In the first ★■◆●ing post.

[woodchip]

Buy a standard range Tesla, the batteries used in those are already cobalt free and have been for a couple years (LFP, lithium-iron-phosphate). And actually most EV battery suppliers used in America including Tesla are moving to cobalt free entirely even for their high nickel chemistries and have already cut off the African mines because of their horrible human rights practices (probably best to still avoid stuff with batteries made in China though).

But why do you care about child slave labor in some shady mining operation somewhere on another continent? THAT IS THE FREE MARKET AT WORK! Turns out child slave labor is REALLY ★■◆●ing CHEAP! Letting that happen is exactly the kind of total deregulation you are always blindly voting to support when you ★■◆● another ballot in the box for a Republican. Didn't you know stopping horrible slave labor practices is communist/socialist? Do not pretend to give a ★■◆● about children in some other poor country when all you ever do in practice is make it worse.

You actually want to do something about it? Tell your representative to support legislation similar to the "green new deal".

Except the Congo than the rest of the world combined and where have we heard this name before:

An investment firm where Hunter Biden, the president’s son, was a founding board member helped facilitate a Chinese company’s purchase from an American company of one of the world’s richest cobalt mines, located in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/20/worl ... obalt.html

I wonder how much Daddy got out of that.

[woodchip]

Woody post your full name and address. I want to send you a clown costume, baby toy phone, and a cozy couple you can drive around in.

I really think you can better use the stuff yourself

[woodchip]

You're posting more dementia-addled ramblings than usual. Slow week?

Not so slow as yours as you are responding to my post.

[vision]

I can't imagine what it is like to be so angry and confused. Although, being confused contributes to anger. It's easy to be frustrated when you don't know how things work.

Be cool, stay in school!

[Tunnelcat]

Tesla is shifting towards iron phosphate-based lithium batteries. The one downside is that it's not quite as efficient, so the range suffers. Tesla is working towards moving to manganese-based lithium batteries in the future. But that bodes ill for our oceans, where manganese nodules are plentiful in the deep ocean, just begging for some mining company to figure out a way to exploit that resource with a vengeance.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-us ... -produced/

But woody, you're forgetting the issues with procuring the lithium itself, never mind the cobalt. That's no more "green" than burning coal for power. Getting lithium from briny water evaporation creates as much leftover toxic waste as those nice coal ash ponds at power plants. Mining it from the ground in South America or Australia is just as destructive to their land. Sure, they're starting to recycle lithium batteries, but I'm betting that process is not "green" either. Recycling lead acid batteries is not even "green". We're only robbing from Paul to pay Peter with electric cars right now.

https://marketplacepublications.com/202 ... vironment/

[woodchip]

Tesla is shifting towards iron phosphate-based lithium batteries. The one downside is that it's not quite as efficient, so the range suffers. Tesla is working towards moving to manganese-based lithium batteries in the future. But that bodes ill for our oceans, where manganese nodules are plentiful in the deep ocean, just begging for some mining company to figure out a way to exploit that resource with a vengeance.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-us ... -produced/

From what I remember, mining mag.nods. is done by drag lines, But that was from my geology class 50 years ago. Present time show different methods and studies going on:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca ... 16cf0f69d7

But woody, you're forgetting the issues with procuring the lithium itself, never mind the cobalt. That's no more "green" than burning coal for power. Getting lithium from briny water evaporation creates as much leftover toxic waste as those nice coal ash ponds at power plants. Mining it from the ground in South America or Australia is just as destructive to their land. Sure, they're starting to recycle lithium batteries, but I'm betting that process is not "green" either. Recycling lead acid batteries is not even "green". We're only robbing from Paul to pay Peter with electric cars right now.

https://marketplacepublications.com/202 ... vironment/

Yeah the Chi-Com's especially have a dismal record mining lithium. Don't ever expect them to worry about enviro. concerns.

[vision]

Don't ever expect them to worry about enviro. concerns.

Are you talking about the same country that is a member of the Paris Climate Accord and is also the largest producer and investor of renewable energy sources?

[Tunnelcat]

Woody, do you do realize that the U.S. only has one working lithium mine and that's a brining operation in Nevada. The rest comes from Chile and Australia, not China. In fact, most of the world's lithium is sourced from those 2 countries. They're thinking of mining it from the Salton Sea, but that hasn't happened yet. China's not a world lithium player right now.

[woodchip]

Woody, do you do realize that the U.S. only has one working lithium mine and that's a brining operation in Nevada. The rest comes from Chile and Australia, not China. In fact, most of the world's lithium is sourced from those 2 countries. They're thinking of mining it from the Salton Sea, but that hasn't happened yet. China's not a world lithium player right now.

And you do realize who is buying up mines in those countries?:

https://www.reuters.com/business/chinas ... 021-12-22/
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. ... ry-market/
https://www.ft.com/content/b71beaf3-b4f ... d03bb9a5de

[woodchip]

Don't ever expect them to worry about enviro. concerns.

Are you talking about the same country that is a member of the Paris Climate Accord and is also the largest producer and investor of renewable energy sources?

Yeah, the same country building 43 new coal fired power plants, that's not counting the 1100 coal fired plants they already have.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/859 ... y-country/

[Tunnelcat]

Oh, I don't disagree with any of that. In fact, i think lithium mining for car batteries is only trading one sin for another and the "greenies" are idiots. I heard one Oregonian on the local news comment on our governor's proposed ban on gasoline cars and that they liked the idea of electric cars, but they WERE concerned about the impact of lithium mining and wanted to see more study before enacting the ban, so not everybody is on board with the idea here. And yes, the Chinese are buying up all sorts of property and companies all over the U.S. and the world. Go tell that to all the mostly liberal states and countries currently trying to mandate away gasoline cars, when all they're really doing is propping up China's interests and further screwing over the planet with their short sighted blinders-type thinking.

[Krom]

Lithium mining in a way that doesn't destroy the atmosphere is a solvable problem, burning coal for electricity without destroying the atmosphere is not.

Pretty much everything people are complaining about WRT renewable energy are problems that can and will be resolved. Fossil fuels can not be fixed, there is no way to burn them without causing issues.

And mining for fossil fuels is just as destructive as mining for battery materials but does even more damage as those fuels are consumed.

[Top Gun]

I love how woody's entire ignorant argument can be boiled down to "we shouldn't be doing these things that cause some issues, we should keep doing these other things that cause much bigger issues because Reasons I guess."

[Tunnelcat]

So, we trade poisoning the atmosphere for poisoning the land? Is that a good trade? Brine mining leaves pools of toxic water waste just like coal burning leaves toxic ash ponds, that HAVE catastrophically failed and poisoned acres of land and waterways too. Until we get a better battery technology, and it is coming down the pipeline, we shouldn't rush into yet another ecological debacle of our own creation. Thats what pisses me off about many of these more liberal states rushing into electric cars. It's currently not "green" and they're deluded thinking that's the case. But yeah, currently all energy solutions humans come up with have negative ecological impacts. Even building the cars themselves is ecologically bad.

However, our own Oregon State University is currently working on this issue. If they succeed, then we won't have to hear conservatives ★■◆● about how electric cars are not green. Mark my words, the days of the internal combustion engine ARE numbered.

https://www.power-grid.com/energy-stora ... e-battery/

[Top Gun]

So what do you suggest we do, TC? Just...not have a functional society? Essentially any large-scale human industrial activity is going to have environmental consequences. The goal at any point in time should be to choose the least-detrimental present option and continue researching even better future options. As your own article noted, there are groups hard at work on alternative battery technologies, and the huge upside there is that if you already have an existing electric-based infrastructure, you can essentially plug-and-play these new batteries into it.

[vision]

Yeah, the same country building 43 new coal fired power plants, that's not counting the 1100 coal fired plants they already have.

From your source: "China’s primary energy mix has shifted from a dominant use of coal to an increase of natural gas and renewable sources. Since 2009, the renewables share in total energy consumption has grown to 15.9 percent. Overall, global primary energy consumption has increased over the last decade, but it is expected to experience the largest growth in emerging economies like the BRIC countries - Brazil, Russia, India, and China." [1]

This really looks like a country with environmental concerns if you ask me...

[Spidey]

When EVs were originally introduced they were a proper alternative to reduce local pollution, then somewhere along the way someone decided they were also a solution to climate change...probably the same group that gaslights the notion that EVs are 100% efficient.

[Darth Wang]

When EVs were originally introduced they were a proper alternative to reduce local pollution, then somewhere along the way someone decided they were also a solution to climate change...probably the same group that gaslights the notion that EVs are 100% efficient.

Literally nothing is 100% efficient. That's an actual law of physics. Who claimed that, and who would believe it?

[Krom]

Literally nothing is 100% efficient. That's an actual law of physics. Who claimed that, and who would believe it?

Actually there are things that are exactly 100% efficient and it makes perfect sense once you think about how it works: Resistive electric heaters.

They are always exactly 100% efficient because all of the energy that goes in to them eventually gets converted into heat (even the ones with a fan because moving the air/sound/etc all eventually dissipates as heat). It makes sense because what we think of as efficiency is generally "how much of X input energy goes to Y work versus how much is lost as heat" but when "Y" work is literally heat then because of the law of conservation heaters are 100% efficient.

But the really funny part is even 100% efficient electric heaters are actually easy to beat with heat pumps. In average conditions a heat pump can transport 3 times as much heat energy as they consume. So for 1 unit of electricity, they can transport 3 units of heat, meaning they can approach "300%" efficiency.

[Krom]

So, we trade poisoning the atmosphere for poisoning the land? Is that a good trade? Brine mining leaves pools of toxic water waste just like coal burning leaves toxic ash ponds, that HAVE catastrophically failed and poisoned acres of land and waterways too. Until we get a better battery technology, and it is coming down the pipeline, we shouldn't rush into yet another ecological debacle of our own creation. Thats what pisses me off about many of these more liberal states rushing into electric cars. It's currently not "green" and they're deluded thinking that's the case. But yeah, currently all energy solutions humans come up with have negative ecological impacts. Even building the cars themselves is ecologically bad.

However, our own Oregon State University is currently working on this issue. If they succeed, then we won't have to hear conservatives ★■◆● about how electric cars are not green. Mark my words, the days of the internal combustion engine ARE numbered.

https://www.power-grid.com/energy-stora ... e-battery/

Even if your assertions are true, using fossil fuels poisons all of the atmosphere where as a lithium mine's destruction is much more localized and can likely be contained or eliminated with some effort/motivation. And you act like the mining of fossil fuels is completely clean and free which it is not, nothing is extracted from the ground at zero environmental cost. This kind of defeatist argument is the same stupid ★■◆● I hate in politics "it isn't an absolute perfect solution so we shouldn't waste our time and instead just keep doing what we are already doing because it works" without mentioning that what we are already doing is objectively worse in pretty much every conceivable way. Literally making "perfect" the enemy of "better".

Like there is a "leftist" political cartoonist (Ted Rall) who is literally on the Kremlin's payroll and often posts propaganda like that about democrat's proposals "They aren't perfect so they are a waste of time" or "The democrats wont fix everything/are dumb/corrupt so we should just stay home on election day*" (*and let the republicans win). That kind of argument is literally in the Russian playbook on western facing propaganda or influence campaigns and you shouldn't fall for it. But a lot of your posting/debating/arguments are full of this kind of thinking and it is not a good way to act or solve problems.

As for the new battery tech, they have nothing, pretty much 99% of these are basically pointless "research" projects which only ever really accomplish researching methods of separating gullible investors from their money. Lithium was not chosen as the most potent modern battery chemistry by accident, there are other chemicals that you can make batteries out of but like any good battery requires a chemical that is reactive so are they, and reactivity implies volatility which tends to make them rare in the environment. Making a battery out of common stable materials is an oxymoron, if they are stable it is difficult to get them to store or release energy because stable materials tend to not do anything and a good battery requires a very significant reaction.

[Tunnelcat]

So what do you suggest we do, TC? Just...not have a functional society? Essentially any large-scale human industrial activity is going to have environmental consequences. The goal at any point in time should be to choose the least-detrimental present option and continue researching even better future options. As your own article noted, there are groups hard at work on alternative battery technologies, and the huge upside there is that if you already have an existing electric-based infrastructure, you can essentially plug-and-play these new batteries into it.

Keep working to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels and into electrical based power. But rushing into EV's before we have a better battery technology that doesn't rely on rare earth metals, a robust, AND SECURE electrical grid to charge all those batteries and a established way to replace and recycle those batteries, we're trying to engineer something massive on the fly with absolutely no plans or coordination. Right now, most people who are used to the longevity of their gas cars will get a big sticker shock when their EV's battery goes bad long before the car wears out. It's thousands of dollars or junk the car. More waste into the system too.

There's been discussions on my local Nextdoor site about natural gas since our city's natural gas franchise agreement is currently up for renewal. Some of the city counselors don't want to renew and instead mandate all new residential housing to go all electric. Our state just joined CA in mandating no more sales of gasoline powered cars by 2035. With this rush towards total electrification for heating homes and powering cars, will our power grid be able to even keep up at night when everyone plugs in their cars for a quick charge just so they can drive to work the next day? I think not. On top of using heat, a/c, lights, computers, phone charging and the myriad of other electrical tools and appliances to cook or keep food cold, something will buckle under the load. On top of this, there are terrorists running around sabotaging our electrical substations for who knows what reasons and who haven't yet been caught. Whole areas of the U.S. could be brought to a total standstill and no more travel or commerce, affecting the economy. Right now, I see a rush to change out of desperation with no forethought. coordination or planning to do it right. We're charging into the future and priming ourselves for a big fail.

[Top Gun]

We NEED to rush away from fossil fuels. There is literally no time to waste. We're already going to miss the IPCC's +1.5 C upper limit on global temperature increases, and lord knows how much higher we're spike if we don't massively decrease carbon emissions, like, yesterday.

Problems with grid scale, and recycling, and so on have to be solved, and they will be solved. But like Krom said, you're pulling some "this isn't perfect now so we shouldn't do it yet" nonsense, and it needs to stop.

[Spidey]

The ironic thing is, we will probably have to build even more carbon burning plants to meet the demand for electricity unless we either sacrifice half our coastlines and farmland to wind and solar farms...or start building nuclear plants out the ass.

I'll say this again...one side thinks climate change is a myth and the other side thinks there is a magic pill or three to solve the problem...all the while decades have gone by we could have been doing things to mitigate the effects and will probably lose decades more.

[Tunnelcat]

I don't disagree with you, period Top Gun. But given human nature, economics, politics and the fact that around half of this country's populace doesn't believe in climate change, forcing those people TO accept change for their own good when the technology is still an evolving industry that's been untested in a large scale and prone to setbacks and failures and sometimes even more pollution, that will only breed contempt and non-compliance, if not outright revolt. People will not accept change when they don't agree with it, it causes them hardship or it costs them too much money.

[Ferno]

Had to force people to accept seatbelts, TC. We gotta force them again.

And the only way to accomplish that is to force corporations in line. They need to run carbon negative technology, find better ways of manufacturing, and clean up their messes, or no more government money for them.

That's the only way.

[Tunnelcat]

Well, once the country's main food breadbasket in the California Central Valley runs out of well water and food becomes more expensive and difficult to obtain, THEN people will notice. And no, the current flooding will not replenish the depleted ground water stores unless it keeps up for hundreds of years.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/sto ... ral-valley