Reality Check... D3 Needs PXO

[TA]One · Post by **[TA]One** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:37 am

Okayâ?¦ soâ?¦ some of you think that PXO being down is a good thing. There is supposed to be this massive tidal wave of new blood that is going to hit D3â??s servers any day now â?? or I guess, we have to believe any month now. Before PXO went down, D3 was almost dead. I seem to recall seeing perhaps 60 or more players in games on really good/peak days. But without PXO I think we top out at 30 players, at most, during â??peakâ?

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:16 am

Hate to break it to you, One, but the last..3-4 months..or more, before PXO went down, there were an average of 15-20 people playing. Now that PXO is down, we have an average of 10-15 playing. Hasn't changed much. The piss-poor level selection has done more damage than PXO.

I'd rather the PXO chat come back, but without chatting ability, with a new MOTD that points people to irc.gamesurge.net and a few other sites to get people into playing.

Of course, if PXO can be worked to get rid of the PXO-dependence with respect to the games list, then fine, but that's not happening yet.

This is just a dip. I've played more games this month than I have the last three. It only takes 45 seconds to join a game instead of 15. Everyone has OpenGL cards where they can Alt-Tab from the game to the desktop, get another ip, Alt-Tab back and type it in, and play another.

Tonight, I'm going to research to see when D3 reads the registry to show the IP in the TCP games list. If it reads it when you open the games list, then I can modify my game browser/launcher to change the IP on the fly, so all you have to do is Alt-Tab, select a game, double-click, and it will bring d3 back up with that game's IP ready to go. Hopefully this will work, 'cause it would be convienient as all get-out.

One, have you been to Gamesurge yet? It looks just like Gate chat..same people, same goings-on...and it hasn't crashed yet.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:23 am

If PXO comes back, I'm giving up on D3 entirely. That might not be a bad thing considering I probably need to do something useful with my life.

STRESSTEST · Post by **STRESSTEST** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:25 am

Suncho wrote:If PXO comes back, I'm giving up on D3 entirely. That might not be a bad thing considering I probably need to do something useful with my life.

That a promise Suncho?

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:31 am

Suncho wrote:If PXO comes back, I'm giving up on D3 entirely. That might not be a bad thing considering I probably need to do something useful with my life.

Volition, bring back PXO! Please, I'm begging you!

Do_Checkor · Post by **Do_Checkor** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:25 am

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:38 am

I second that notion. I don't play d3 now cause of PXO being down.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:49 am

Incorrect: D3 doesn't need PXO.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:38 pm

STRESSTEST wrote:
Suncho wrote:If PXO comes back, I'm giving up on D3 entirely. That might not be a bad thing considering I probably need to do something useful with my life.

That a promise Suncho?

Stop saying that!

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:45 pm

CDN_Merlin wrote:I second that notion. I don't play d3 now cause of PXO being down.

Merlin, any reason? It's easy enough to get into a game if you put two minutes of effort into it.

pipsqueak10 · Post by **pipsqueak10** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:27 pm

"The piss-poor level selection has done more damage than PXO."

I don't think that is correct. I've always seen a wide variety of levels hosted. It just seems that everyone keeps playing the same ones over and over instead of trying something different.

"I probably need to do something useful with my life"

You saying D3 isn't useful. Thats blasphemy!

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:34 pm

the game is old, thats why you have 30 players left.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:34 pm

Top Gun, I use kali to get into the games. Once you quit the game you have to exit out back to kali to join another game. If kali would show the game list within D3 it would rock but that would require to much coding.

PXO was just simple. That is what made it great. If we can somehow get the PXO code and have someone host the PXO lobby and tracker, then it would be great. But trying to have 3-4 different ways to joining D3 is uncouraging for newbies.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm just giving my 2 cents or .75 cents US.

[TA]One · Post by **[TA]One** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:41 pm

Testi, when I used the numbers "60" and "30" these were guesstimates of the absolute peak periods. I know we were averaging less people playing while PXO was up. And I know what we are averaging now isn't half. When I stated that "as many as half" aren't playin it was during these peak moments that I was thinking of - admittedly to emphasize or overemphasize my point.

But even by going by the averages - and using your averages - the number of people playing has gone down perhaps 25% since we lost PXO. I think 25% is a conservative estimate. Losing a quarter of our players is a lot considering we couldn't afford to lose any more to begin with. How long can we expect server ops and level makers to continue to invest their time/money for 20 or so people playing?

Now, is it easy for most of us to still join games even without PXO? Of course. But I fully expect that most of you who read the DBB will overlook the fact that PXO kept things even more simple - and that this did indeed help keep that 25% or more that we have since lost.

I've chatted with enough D3 players to know that some players aren't even computer savvy enough to know how to Alt-Tab. Besides that, I've had computers with "OpenGL cards" where the Alt-Tab won't work so I know that right now some don't have that option. Luckily, my current computer can Alt-Tab without screwing up. So although it is easy enough for most of us to Alt-Tab, go to d3.descent.cx, and write down an IP all without having to exit D3 - for some players it isn't.

As for levels, I don't agree that servers not hosting the right levels is the biggest problem. The biggest problem as far as levels is concerned is that even when a level you might want to play is being hosted, no one is in it. What is the solution to this? The only solution I can imagine is for someone to write an app that allows players to monitor servers hosting levels that they might want to play, then alerts them (with an audible alert, perhaps) when someone has joined that server. The question of whether or not this is possible would have to be put to you programmers out there.

-One

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:02 pm

One, there was a drop of players when PXO first went down, but since then it's only gone up! When was the last time we had an upward trend in the number of people playing D3?

WildWolf · Post by **WildWolf** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:10 pm

Volition is not lying. Well, I'm not sure I buy the server is damaged thing, but don't really expect PXO to come back. V has not had the resources to manage PXO in a long time. We pretty much just made sure it was up, and that was it.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:22 pm

IF you think it takes oodles of $$ to run a smiple chat and tracker you are mistaken. The bandwidth alone is nothing and they could run it off one of the other servers they run.

WildWolf · Post by **WildWolf** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:27 pm

Yeah, but it takes a person to do that. You have to pay this person. Then you have to take this person away from other work, that is probably going to make you money, and have them work on PXO, which isn't making anyone any money.

It costs money to run PXO. It costs someone's time.

I realize that sounds pretty shitty. But when you're on the other end, managing PXO at Volition, it seems very different.

[TA]One · Post by **[TA]One** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:02 pm

WildWolf, thanks for your input here and on the "PXO" thread.

Suncho, I sincerely hope you were just joking. Sure, when PXO "first" went down there was a drop then a rise. That was due to the normal lagtime between people noticing PXO was down, and finally making the effort to find the IP trackers. But we haven't risen to where we were by any stretch of the imagination. Some players either couldn't be bothered, or didn't know how to find the IP trackers. We have lost players.

Still, thanks for making me laugh. D3 on an "upward trend" - now that's funny!

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:04 pm

It is on an upward trend, even though it's an ever-so-slight one. A couple of days ago, for ex., a lot of D3k's Halo-only players started to play D3. They're part of the rise.

KompresZor · Post by **KompresZor** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:49 pm

What we need to do is this, get Volition to release the PXO domains to us, then build a smaller better PXO

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:00 pm

Merlin, I use Kali too, and I don't see it as much more of an inconvenience. Sure, it's an extra 15-20 seconds that would have been saved if PXO had been up, but the interface is a lot better, and Kali doesn't freeze up like PXO did. I consider it an even tradeoff

.

Zero! · Post by **Zero!** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:58 am

One is right and wrong... yes pxo did have more ppl playing it was bout more than 50 like on saturdays or somthin, and there would be like 25 in chat. now theres like 15 ppl in chat, and 2 games being played.but d3 doesnt need pxo! that new gamesurge thingy and wut suncho is doing trying to post bout stuff on other forums is good exposure. but we got like 6 new ppl from it so far. all i know is collegekid, and D3ks little group from halo.ill giv it one more month, maybe two. but if we dont back to atleast to as many people as we did when pxo was up, face it this game is f'ing dead. HOPEFULLY that doesnt happen.

Nightmare USA · Post by **Nightmare USA** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:32 pm

who ever shows in chat certainly does not mean they are there. it has definately slowed down.

DW-Suzanna · Post by **DW-Suzanna** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:14 pm

Just like to add, from our FREESPACE 2 perspective.....PXO being down is a real problem. We can host on ip but that means having to contact others to arrange a game and time etc. The lobby was an important part of FS2. Gamespy doesnt support FS2.....so PXO being dead or down probably means end of the FS2 community as a whole.

DW-Suzanna

www.darkwing-squad.com

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:22 pm

The whole problem with PXO is that both Outrage and Volition made them an integral part of how Descent 3 and FreeSpace 2 worked, rather than keeping it somewhat independent. It was a centralized point of failure in that it railroaded everyone onto essentially the same network. When the plug on that network was pulled, so too did the game.

PXO was the default. That's the issue. Whatever new people buy these game are going to try to patch to 1.4 with Auto-Update. It will fail, naturally. Assume they try to go on-line, they'll see PXO as the obvious option and witness how it too doesn't work. And they'll give up. It's a five-year-old game that's now totally unsupported.

Testiculese wrote:The piss-poor level selection has done more damage than PXO.

It's because you folks killed off your development community. You never played anything new they offered. You insisted on playing the same junk day in and day out. And people stopped trying to appease the elites and largely moved to greener pastures. Don't blame the level designers, and don't blame the server ops. Blame the community at large for utterly failing to adopt anything new.

See, two years from now, Descent 3 will still be played by a handful of stalworts. And the single level du jour will always be the metaphorical Minerva - day in, day out.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:57 pm

I think the piss-poor level selection is a result of PXO.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:49 pm

DW-Suzanna wrote:Just like to add, from our FREESPACE 2 perspective.....PXO being down is a real problem. We can host on ip but that means having to contact others to arrange a game and time etc. The lobby was an important part of FS2. Gamespy doesnt support FS2.....so PXO being dead or down probably means end of the FS2 community as a whole.

DW-Suzanna

www.darkwing-squad.com

Suzanna, try contacting Jay Cotton, the owner of Kali. I don't think that Freespace 2 is supported with regards to server tracking (it can still be played as a Lobby game under LAN emulation), but I know that Freespace is. If you give him the necessary information, he may be able to add Freespace 2 to Kali. I would be interested in this myself; I recently purchased Freespace 2, and after finding out what a truly great game it is, I'd like to try it online.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:30 pm

You can also try getting Freespace 2 added to Kquery. I posted in their forums and they had it added with 2 hours. http://www.kquery.com

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:32 pm

the only solution is to provide an in-game chat and game-tracker

the only way to do that is to buy a few domains and setup a few servers

buy the autoupdate domain first, then buy a domain for the chat and game tracking

buy servers and bandwidth for the two domains

finish the 1.5 patch and include the new chat and game tracker in the package (must be accessible in-game tho)

put the 1.5 patch on the autoupdate server so when the newbiews goto autoupdate, they get the 1.5 patch which removes pxo and heat, and adds the correct community run game/chat server data

that is the only way to save the game, and it is probably the easiest

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:21 pm

Good idea! Get back to us when you're done.

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:18 pm

Suncho wrote:I think the piss-poor level selection is a result of PXO.

Explain.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:32 pm

I have many times.

It has to do with the cycle that PXO locks newbies, server ops, and level designers into. Maybe if I have the time, I'll find a previous post I made on the subject and cut and paste it here.

It really doesn't matter anymore because PXO is gone and all this is changing now.

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:00 am

Makes no sense at all. How would simply having it on a different network make people play all of the levels they don't currently? That's a community problem of resistance to change, not a technical problem. You put it on whatever network of your choice, and we'll still all play Abend.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:44 am

uggh... I can't believe I have to go over this again.

Back in the HEAT days everyone played the levels they wanted to play because you started games on demand and always chatted about what you wanted to play before starting a game.

Then HEAT was shut down and we were all banished to PXO, where your only level choice was what the servers happened to be hosting.

Players continue to join the "good" levels and only the "good" levels get played. Newbies come in and when they join the levels that other people are playing, they get owned. Every time they join a "good" level, someone else joins and they get owned again. This continues until they end up on a server that nobody joins... except eventually... another newbie. Why? The level sucks and only newbies are the only ones who don't know not to play it.

On PXO you can't start your own games and half the people don't stop in chat anyway, so the only way games get started are when patient newbies join them and sit in them. Hence, the only levels being played are the crappy ones. Server ops want their servers to be played on, so they all start hosting the levels that get played. Level designers all want their levels to get played, so they start intentionally making crappy levels. This cycle continued unbroken as long as we were on PXO.

Now that PXO is gone, we have options again! The server list is still relatively fixed, but anyone can get to SOD or SeeMePlayMe and play whatever level they want whenever they want. More of both hardcore players and newbies are able to chat and use the internet at the same time because they're not trapped in the PXO interface. Thusly, the cycle is broken and the crappy level selection will slowly improve.

This was a big part of my argument when I had that petition up to get PXO shut down.

Diti · Post by **Diti** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:45 pm

Sunch: On one hand you say: PXO was guilty for that everyone played the same few levels all the time.
one the other hand you say: PEOPLE CHOSE everytime the same levels - so the Newbies where forced to follow them into these.

Okay: First: A level designer can send a server op an email - and the most times this op WILL host this level! And when I took a look at the server list on PXO - there were many different levels hosted - but everyone played the same skybox/subwaydancer stuff (sorry Atan - you know...it's still a great level).
So, don't say, that you didn't have the possibility to hop into another (more unknown) level!
How long has had a level to be hosted until anyone recognizes it?!?!?!?
What has changed? Nothing! I got throughout very good/positive comments to my new level - but no one (okay...a VERY few did) seemed to want to play this level!
So don't blame PXO here. Grab your nose with your own fingers! (German saying for those who should think about what they do and what others do)
But one is for sure: I honestly think about NOT releasing my next level to the whole community - only for those who join the next LAN over here. Two reasons for that: I get feedback AND I know that my effort was worth it because we gonna have lotsa fun with that level (hehe...hope so).

For all players out there: Get more flexible. Aren't you courious about what is besides the "typically played 5 levels"?
There ain't that many level designers as in unreal(tournament) - and building (and releasing) levels is ONE thing amoung others that keeps the community alive.
Think about it.

[LL]Diti

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:14 pm

There are at least a few players, myself included, who are willing to jump into a new game and try it out. Not everyone has some deep, endearing love for the same old levels. If only more people were willing to server-hop to new levels, maybe they'd get some more play time. This is where joining a game out of chat could help, since the players could decide beforehand which server to join, instead of going wherever people are. As fun as Varicose Veins and Halcyon are, I'm always up for a new CTF level

. Diti, I haven't looked at your level yet, but if I hear of anyone playing it, I'll jump in too.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:56 pm

Diti wrote:Sunch: On one hand you say: PXO was guilty for that everyone played the same few levels all the time.
one the other hand you say: PEOPLE CHOSE everytime the same levels - so the Newbies where forced to follow them into these.

I did not say that. Please read my post again.

Diti wrote:Okay: First: A level designer can send a server op an email - and the most times this op WILL host this level! And when I took a look at the server list on PXO - there were many different levels hosted - but everyone played the same skybox/subwaydancer stuff (sorry Atan - you know...it's still a great level).

That's what I said.

Diti wrote:So, don't say, that you didn't have the possibility to hop into another (more unknown) level!

I didn't say that... and I won't.

How long has had a level to be hosted until anyone recognizes it?!?!?!?

I don't think levels being recognized has much to do with how long they are hosted.

Diti wrote:What has changed? Nothing! I got throughout very good/positive comments to my new level - but no one (okay...a VERY few did) seemed to want to play this level!

What people want is very specific these days. It won't happen overnight, but now that PXO is gone, people will gradually become more open minded.

Diti wrote:So don't blame PXO here. Grab your nose with your own fingers! (German saying for those who should think about what they do and what others do)

Grab my nose with my own fingers? Do you think I WANT to play horrible levels? Do you think anyone wants to? Don't blame the players. Blame the game (American saying for those who blame others for making the only choice they can make)

Diti wrote:But one is for sure: I honestly think about NOT releasing my next level to the whole community - only for those who join the next LAN over here. Two reasons for that: I get feedback AND I know that my effort was worth it because we gonna have lotsa fun with that level (hehe...hope so).

You didn't explain why releasing your level to the public will cause anything negative to happen.

Diti wrote:For all players out there: Get more flexible. Aren't you courious about what is besides the "typically played 5 levels"?

Of course we are. But you know as well as I that it's not that simple.

Diti wrote:There ain't that many level designers as in unreal(tournament) - and building (and releasing) levels is ONE thing amoung others that keeps the community alive.
Think about it.

[LL]Diti

One thing... among others. =)

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:08 pm

Suncho wrote:PXO, where your only level choice was what the servers happened to be hosting.

If that's the case, then there was a LOT of choice before PXO went down. Server ops were running a variety of different levels, but nobody was playing them. Why is that PXO's fault and how would it be so much different if it were on another network? Ultimately, you have a couple dozen hardcore Descenters left, and they are mostly into their "home levels" and don't want to try new things. Virtually no one tried the new levels. Even new levels that were adopted were produced by "popular" designers and probably became noteworthy for that reason alone.

Suncho wrote:Level designers all want their levels to get played, so they start intentionally making crappy levels.

Quite a wreckless and stupid accusation.

On the contrary, designers start to realize that Descenters have no taste when it comes to good maps. Stuff like Abend and the hideous Brain Salad would be laughed out of existence if this were Unreal Tournament. But this ancient drivel lives on in Descent.

So why invest the effort if no one is going to give a damn?

Suncho wrote:Thusly, the cycle is broken and the crappy level selection will slowly improve.

Whatever.

Suncho wrote:Don't blame the players. Blame the game

Yeah! Blame that program, the root of all evil! That infernal program that plays the same stupid maps day in and day out, that railroads the poor unsuspecting players into one mode of gameplay on a handful of poorly-designed maps and forces them down their throats.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:40 pm

Kyouryuu wrote:
Suncho wrote:PXO, where your only level choice was what the servers happened to be hosting.
If that's the case, then there was a LOT of choice before PXO went down. Server ops were running a variety of different levels, but nobody was playing them. Why is that PXO's fault and how would it be so much different if it were on another network? Ultimately, you have a couple dozen hardcore Descenters left, and they are mostly into their "home levels" and don't want to try new things. Virtually no one tried the new levels. Even new levels that were adopted were produced by "popular" designers and probably became noteworthy for that reason alone.

Level designers blame it on players. Players blame it on server ops. Don't you see that neither the level designers, server ops, nor players are to blame?

Kyouryuu wrote:
Suncho wrote:Level designers all want their levels to get played, so they start intentionally making crappy levels.
Quite a wreckless and stupid accusation.

On the contrary, designers start to realize that Descenters have no taste when it comes to good maps. Stuff like Abend and the hideous Brain Salad would be laughed out of existence if this were Unreal Tournament. But this ancient drivel lives on in Descent.

So why invest the effort if no one is going to give a damn?

You just said what I said except using different words.

Suncho wrote:Don't blame the players. Blame the game
Yeah! Blame that program, the root of all evil! That infernal program that plays the same stupid maps day in and day out, that railroads the poor unsuspecting players into one mode of gameplay on a handful of poorly-designed maps and forces them down their throats.

I'm not blaming Descent 3. I'm blaming PXO. "the game" is a metaphor for PXO and the way it locked our community.

When jumping so quick to lay blame on the players, you might want to step back a moment and think about why players in other games (UT2K4) don't pick bad levels. If you can answer that question and tell me what the difference (besides PXO) is between us and them then I'm all ears.

Reality Check... D3 Needs PXO

Reality Check... D3 Needs PXO

PXO and FS2

Re: PXO and FS2