Christians are victims! Time for war!

[Tunnelcat]

Victims of what precisely? Are all those rights that LGBTQ people have fought for and won over the years now starting to stick in your collective craws and you've finally found something you can rally your troops around? Take note, that Nashville shooter was mentally ill. No one in their right mind, even a trans person, would murder innocent children in a school. If anything, the act was counterproductive to the rights of a whole group of people. So a mentally ill trans person goes on a school shooting spree and now right wing Christians take that as a call to war against ALL trans people. What a bunch of ignorant hateful bigots. And here I thought Christianity came from the peaceful teachings of Jesus. They're forgetting that America is a melting pot of nationalities and religions, not a Puritan land where only Christians may reside. Besides, there's that inconvenient clause about separation of church and state in our country's Constitution.

https://source.wustl.edu/2021/08/cultur ... istianity/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9ppz/ ... anti-trans

Oh, and Trump of course is jumping on the band wagon.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7bd9z/trump-anti-trans

[Isaac]

I really wonder how much of the trans hate is promoted by Chinese click farms and TikTok algorithms to make people who would normally not care about trans people feel like they're on the opposite side of them. I know network news is an easy target here, but remember that China has groups whose job it is to try to cause division in our country.

[woodchip]

Isaac, you're spot on about the Chinese. The lame stream press is trying to paint the shooting and the responses as a attack on the trans community. Lets view this through a different lens. What if the shooter was a mentally ill good 'ole southern redneck and he shot up gay rally What do you think the responses be. Sympathy that he was mentally ill? Or that he was some sort of militia anarchist? News mongers have been painting incident such as these in the most lurid terms possible for one reason...to sell print.

[Tunnelcat]

Ain't the Chinese or even bots. It's good ol' Christian pastors that have forgotten what Jesus taught. By the way, I no more want to go shoot innocent kids at some school than any other sane person.

https://news.gab.com/2023/03/being-wins ... -christian

[Ferno]

Victims of what precisely? Are all those rights that LGBTQ people have fought for and won over the years now starting to stick in your collective craws and you've finally found something you can rally your troops around? Take note, that Nashville shooter was mentally ill. No one in their right mind, even a trans person, would murder innocent children in a school. If anything, the act was counterproductive to the rights of a whole group of people. So a mentally ill trans person goes on a school shooting spree and now right wing Christians take that as a call to war against ALL trans people. What a bunch of ignorant hateful bigots. And here I thought Christianity came from the peaceful teachings of Jesus. They're forgetting that America is a melting pot of nationalities and religions, not a Puritan land where only Christians may reside. Besides, there's that inconvenient clause about separation of church and state in our country's Constitution.

https://source.wustl.edu/2021/08/cultur ... istianity/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9ppz/ ... anti-trans

Oh, and Trump of course is jumping on the band wagon.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7bd9z/trump-anti-trans

Stop.

No he was not mentally ill.

Mental illness implies these decisions were made without a sound mind, and that they weren't in control of their own actions. This guy made the deliberate decision to buy his firearms, and the deliberate decision to murder innocents. Saying it's a mental illness is letting them off the hook.

[Spidey]

When it comes to mass shootings, mental illness is definitely the issue, but it's not individual mental illness that is the problem, it's the culture that is sick in the head, that's the problem.

[Isaac]

Ain't the Chinese or even bots. It's good ol' Christian pastors that have forgotten what Jesus taught. By the way, I no more want to go shoot innocent kids at some school than any other sane person.

https://news.gab.com/2023/03/being-wins ... -christian

Trans people are nothing new. That's why I'm suspicious of our social media.

[Isaac]

Isaac, you're spot on about the Chinese. The lame stream press is trying to paint the shooting and the responses as a attack on the trans community. Lets view this through a different lens. What if the shooter was a mentally ill good 'ole southern redneck and he shot up gay rally What do you think the responses be. Sympathy that he was mentally ill? Or that he was some sort of militia anarchist? News mongers have been painting incident such as these in the most lurid terms possible for one reason...to sell print.

And some people still think China is our friend. They're doing everything they can to spur a new civil war.

[Tunnelcat]

Stop.

No he was not mentally ill.

Mental illness implies these decisions were made without a sound mind, and that they weren't in control of their own actions. This guy made the deliberate decision to buy his firearms, and the deliberate decision to murder innocents. Saying it's a mental illness is letting them off the hook.

Ok, if not mental illness, then what? Something made this person snap. Something made this person decide that innocents should die, and for what? So far, the authorities have not released any of his writings, so we don't have any insight into his thoughts so far.

And Spidey, if our culture is sick, where do you think that comes from? Our leaders. Our churches and institutions? Our schools? The internet? The gun culture?

[Spidey]

I don't know, but if the answer ever comes to me in a dream, I'll be sure to let you know.

[Tunnelcat]

Personally, I think it comes from power. People want power. Power over everyone else. Power over their own lives. Power to live as they please. Power to tell others how to act so they don't have to face those who are different. When some people lose that power, they lose control. When they lose control, they lose any moral compass and inhibitions and lash out. Is it mental illness when someone breaks? You tell me Ferno. But it's a human condition we all face every day. Some break down, lose it and lash out, while others remain strong and tolerate their circumstances. That's seems to be what's going on in our society right now. There's a constant power struggle between groups of people and even other countries and the U.S. Tribal tendencies are overriding all else and we're all sitting behind our little fort walls lobbing bombs at each other like a bunch of petty little idiots claiming they're in the right. I'm no different either, so I can't stand on any soapbox and proclaim I haven't fallen into that trap as well.

I for one will be interested in reading her writings. I will refer to the shooter as a "her" because for all intensive purposes, we don't even know if she was straight, gay or trans. The "disinformation ecosystem" has spawned all sort of trash and of course, mostly conservative mouthpieces have latched onto it and promulgated it like poison. She most certainly hadn't gone through conversion by any stretch of the imagination in Tennessee, so she was physically a female. Why she stayed there I'll never know. But she was being treated for an "emotional disorder". I'll also be very interested in what exactly that entailed as well. By the way, 98% of all mass shootings are performed by young men, yet in conservative world, that doesn't matter. They got their reason for a full hate hard on.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-new ... -rcna77424

[Ferno]

Stop.

No he was not mentally ill.

Mental illness implies these decisions were made without a sound mind, and that they weren't in control of their own actions. This guy made the deliberate decision to buy his firearms, and the deliberate decision to murder innocents. Saying it's a mental illness is letting them off the hook.

Ok, if not mental illness, then what? Something made this person snap. Something made this person decide that innocents should die, and for what? So far, the authorities have not released any of his writings, so we don't have any insight into his thoughts so far.

And Spidey, if our culture is sick, where do you think that comes from? Our leaders. Our churches and institutions? Our schools? The internet? The gun culture?

Hate.

Hate for others made him 'snap'.

The next time mental illness comes up in a shooting, in about a days' time, ask these questions: 1) what mental illness specifically? 2) do the known symptoms of the named illness include the tendency to go and hurt others? 3) why aren't there any shootings like this in other countries?

If not, that's how you can figure out they're using mental illness as a distraction from the real issue - uncontrolled hatred towards trans people.

I can also answer your questions to spidey in one word. Yes. Yes to all of that.

[Top Gun]

The vast majority of people who are legitimately mentally ill pose no threat to anyone, and if they do, it's usually to themselves. It's a pathetic straw man erected by the gun lobby to try and hide the oceans of blood that stain their hands.

[Spidey]

Well "something" has to be broken when we have people willing to go out and murder children.

There are what...more than 300 million guns in this country...if guns were truly the problem, we would all be dead long ago.

[Isaac]

Mental illness implies these decisions were made without a sound mind, and that they weren't in control of their own actions.

Uh no, you can have a mental illness and still be in control. Sorry, but depression is still a mental illness. Chronic anxiety is a mental illness too. These alone could lead to a lack of empathy and suicidal behavior, which could have led him/her to kill not only themselves but others as well. And before you write off these mental illnesses as irrelevant to their actions, you'd be surprised to find out that depression can feel like being trapped in a burning building and the only escape is suicide, not sadness.

[Ferno]

Well "something" has to be broken when we have people willing to go out and murder children.

There are what...more than 300 million guns in this country...if guns were truly the problem, we would all be dead long ago.

LOL.

It IS the guns. It's always been the guns. And it's always been the fact that your media stokes fear and paranoia into each and every one of you. Combine that with your politicians treating you like ★■◆● and making you scared of each other, of course the you're going to start shooting each other.

This is not rocket science. Your media scares you. Your politicians scare you (LOOK AT THE SCARY IMMIGRANT/OTHER RACE/OTHER POOR PERSON!) and then you go for your guns and start blasting. And I'm getting a bit tired of having to say this over and over again.

You guys need to fix. your. ★■◆●.

Otherwise, you'll wake up to another shooting.

Uh no, you can have a mental illness and still be in control

Therapists, psychologists, psychotherapists et all would all disagree with you.

[Isaac]

Uh no, you can have a mental illness and still be in control

Therapists, psychologists, psychotherapists et all would all disagree with you.

Sorry if the rest of my point maxed out your reading character limit, but here's the part therapists, psychologists, psychotherapists would actually agree with:

Sorry, but depression is still a mental illness. Chronic anxiety is a mental illness too. These alone could lead to a lack of empathy and suicidal behavior, which could have led him/her to kill not only themselves but others as well. And before you write off these mental illnesses as irrelevant to their actions, you'd be surprised to find out that depression can feel like being trapped in a burning building and the only escape is suicide, not sadness.

Let me know if I need to make it shorter.

[Tunnelcat]

Ferno, our media never wants to say the word "hate". They'd rather keep the national news a family friendly affair for all those sensitive Americans with feelings. Mental illness is less scary and something possibly treatable as a solution to all this mass death, so yeah, they'll go with that. Hate is something that cannot be treated. It's inbedded, insidious and corrosive. As for guns, there's no way in hell that any politician(s) will ever take them away in the U.S. That, unfortunately, is a call to revolution for most gun owners. Americans love their assault rifles....to death.

[Ferno]

Issac, you're about as smart about mental illness as woodchip is about politics.

[Isaac]

Issac, you're about as smart about mental illness as woodchip is about politics.

I'm not smart. I'm correct. But I am wrong about your ability to formulate an argument. I was excited to see what you had, but you have nothing to offer. You win: I'm both sad and disappointed.

Don't worry, I'll not playfully pick on you again as it would be bullying.

[Spidey]

Yes, of course it's all that fear of young children instilled by our media and politicians that make people pick up a weapon and go out and kill young children.

Thanks for clearing that up, Ferno.

[Tunnelcat]

Look up the definitions Ferno and Isaac and quit bickering over semantics.

https://www.nami.org/About-Mental-Illne ... Conditions

In the case of this shooter, I think several of those disorders could be applied, although this is only an armchair diagnosis without any factual information. However, desiring to take innocent lives in some sort of sick retribution against society or even a church is not normal accepted behavior by any stretch of the imagination. Combine hate with mental illness and you get a bomb ready to explode. And any religious person should not be considering retribution for this shooter's action in return. Unless they firmly believe in the Biblical eye for an eye, which I don't. What would Jesus say....

[Ferno]

Tunnelcat, what you consider semantics is an actual difference.

You can look up the definitions and know, but not understand.

With mental illnesses, you don't control them - that's a misleading conclusion. What you do is manage them. It's not like a machine that you can command to either be on or off. It's always there. Always dictating what you do in life. The influence is what you can manage. I'll give you a basic example. Take anxiety for example. If you don't practice mindfulness, for example, it has a dominating influence on your life and can have you do uncharacteristic behaviours. With mindfulness, those behaviours can be managed to a degree. That's on the mild side of the spectrum. The more severe the illness, the more that's needed to manage it. Some cases need therapy. Others need medication on top of therapy. And in some rare cases, more severe measures are needed. Just like what it says in the link you provided. When was the last time someone said "my depression/anxiety is cured!". Never happens.

So saying it can be 'controlled', is a glib excuse and a slap in the face to the science behind managing mental illnesses.

instilled by our media and politicians that make people pick up a weapon

See "drag shows are grooming and sexualizing our children!" and the stories of drag shows being shot up, protested by groups such as Proud Boys, et al, and firebombing of a donut shop that hosted a drag event. You're either not paying attention, Spidey, or are willfully ignoring them. https://www.them.us/story/anti-drag-attacks-2022-glaad

[Tunnelcat]

That's the problem, most mental illnesses can only be managed. There are no real cures and most psychiatric drugs have undesirable side effects. Management depends on the patient following their doctor's directions and regularly taking any medications. How many times have we seen mentally ill people stop taking their medications because of side effects or forgetfulness or they just plain ignore their docs and end up in distress or trouble? We don't know what treatment that shooter was receiving for her emotional problems or whether she was following it, but obviously she was putting on a front no one saw.

[Isaac]

That's the problem, most mental illnesses can only be managed. There are no real cures and most psychiatric drugs have undesirable side effects. Management depends on the patient following their doctor's directions and regularly taking any medications. How many times have we seen mentally ill people stop taking their medications because of side effects or forgetfulness or they just plain ignore their docs and end up in distress or trouble? We don't know what treatment that shooter was receiving for her emotional problems or whether she was following it, but obviously she was putting on a front no one saw.

You're wasting your energy. He's already changing what he said. Reading between the lines, I think Ferno doesn't like the "mental illness" argument ONLY because it distracts from the gun confiscation solution, I'm pretty sure he's circling around. Originally, he was trying to paint mental illness as a black and white state where someone with a mental illness "...[aren't] in control of their own actions." (actual quote), essentially claiming that such a person couldn't possibly be able to commit premeditated murder with a mental illness. But in his next post, he consciously writes, "it has a dominating influence on your life and can have you do uncharacteristic behaviors" like shooting a school... consistency-whoopsie. I think what Ferno needs is alcohol. Not for him, but for me to not notice these mistakes.

[Krom]

Lots of people in other countries have mental health issues but for some reason those countries don't have 1 or more mass shootings every day. Even if you add all those other countries together they still don't have anywhere near as many mass shootings.

[Spidey]

No, but in Brazil they have school knifing and axing.

I'll say it again, this crap has more to do with the mental health of the society than the individual, not that individual mental health doesn't play a part.

Need an example...look at Haiti, now there is a very sick society.

[TheWhat]

I'm not anti-gun or anything (or anti-Spidey for that matter) but this whole "if it wasn't a gun it would be a knife or a car" thing people use to deflect gun violence is asinine. Guns don't kill people, people kill people is true to extent but the tool DOES matter. The lunatic in Las Vegas that killed people from his hotel suite above a music festival couldn't have done that throwing knives or chucking Kung Fu throwing stars out the window, so save that bull★■◆● for someone else. Knives and guns and nuclear weapons are NOT the same.

[Darth Wang]

I don't think a blanket ban and confiscation of private guns will ever work. But there certainly could be more regulations, like background checks and the requirement to pass a training course and get a license, like we have with cars.

[Tunnelcat]

No, a blanket ban would only rile up the dedicated die hard gun owners of this country. Guns are God and like all religions, God is paramount. In other words, attack their God and their patriotic right to own those guns, it's war. As an example, all the rural counties of Oregon want to join together and secede from our state and join up with large portions of Idaho and form a new state called Greater Idaho, full of gun loving good ol' boys. Why? Because they hate liberals and don't like what the liberal cities are dictating in the state, especially around gun control and drug decriminalization. Unfortunately, I do agree that the disorganized drug decriminalization efforts going on in our capital, which has made things worse. We now have more drug addicts than ever in our state and the rural counties are having to deal with illegal pot grow operations.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/15/politics ... index.html

However, this most recent mass shooting has spurred on some action with the state liberals. The Oregon legislature got fed up with a right wing Harney County judge who blocked Measure 114, which passed in a state popular vote, just barely. So they got smart and did an end run around his actions. They came up with SB 348 and mirrored most of the language in Measure 114. One of the biggest efforts with this legislation is to prevent "impulse buying", in the effort to stop someone from going out and purchasing guns on a whim and hiding it. AND, to avoid having another right wing judge in a right wing county block it all over again, they've made it a requirement that any challenges or lawsuits over this new bill must go through Marion County, which is far more liberal. Yet still, despite the common sense requirements in this bill, conservatives are up in arms about it and several conservative county sheriff's departments are refusing to perform those background checks or issue permits. Now you see what anyone who wants some common sense brought into our gun laws is up against? Absolute nuttiness.

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2023/0 ... limit.html

Isaac, I know far more than Ferno when it comes to mental health issues. My husband's constant small strokes slowly made him mentally ill by most psychiatric definitions. There was no cure since all the damage was physical. He pretty much slowly become irritable, in pain, nearly deaf and blind and psychotic. All that was left for medical help were drugs, since dead brain cells are gone forever and depending on which brain cells die, weird behavior issues crop up. The drugs the doctors plied him with were horrible. They made him lethargic, stupid and nearly a zombie. He couldn't DO anything but lie around in a stupor during the day. He hated it because he liked doing things, even on the computer (he was an engineer after all), so he quit taking them. He was never a physical threat to me or the public, but his personality was forever ruined. He couldn't handle pain or confrontation without blowing up in a crazy rant. He couldn't go out in public since his interpersonal social skills were gone and he would get in verbal fights with people or even his docs. Even his last doc kicked us out of his office when he threw one of his rants over his refusal to take his medication for blood pressure, which also made him lethargic. That's not a medical professional, that's a jackass who shouldn't even be practicing. That's the state of mental health in the U.S.A. It sucks.

[Spidey]

I can't blame anyone for wanting to secede from Oregon.

[Ferno]

That's the problem, most mental illnesses can only be managed. There are no real cures and most psychiatric drugs have undesirable side effects. Management depends on the patient following their doctor's directions and regularly taking any medications. How many times have we seen mentally ill people stop taking their medications because of side effects or forgetfulness or they just plain ignore their docs and end up in distress or trouble? We don't know what treatment that shooter was receiving for her emotional problems or whether she was following it, but obviously she was putting on a front no one saw.

Well, like I said before. He's not mentally ill. He's been radicalized.

I know far more than Ferno when it comes to mental health issues

Uh, I'd advise extreme caution on saying something like that. That's suggesting you have a PhD in a vast amount of knowledge. You know your experiences, and no one here is going to undermine or diminish those. But please don't mistake those experiences for medical knowledge.

[Tunnelcat]

Ferno, do you have personal medical knowledge? If you do, regal all of us with that information. From what I experienced, the U.S. medical system is very poor at treating people with mental illness. Maybe its a different story in Canada. There's also a stigma associated with someone having a mental illness, which doesn't help with a person seeking or getting treatment for that illness. Most patients want to stay in the shadows. A lot of GP's can't even handle someone with a mental illness as we found out. So much for the hippocratic oath. All the medical system has in their toolbox for treatment are drugs with very unpleasant side effects. That's pretty much it. Keeping people on those drugs is also a challenge requiring monitoring and sometimes forced hospitalization to get them into treatment. It would be a far better solution if the docs could go into the brain and fix what's wrong, but medical science is nowhere near that point yet. And since medicine evolved from religious-based palliative care over time, there is a lot of built-in arrogance that borders on Godhood with the whole system. That's my personal experience and my opinion from the years of dealing with our medical system.

As for gun control, Tennessee would rather expel Democrats who won their seats in the last election than deal with gun control. They've already banned books and drag shows. Fascism is alive and well in the conservative south.

https://apnews.com/article/tennessee-la ... 16a7b5dade

Spidey, I would rather live in Oregon than in any Red State that couches their hate in religion. Idaho can go shove their white supremacist ideology up into their collective asses. That and the polygamist BS that resides in Northern Idaho.

[Ferno]

TC: I strongly suggest you take a days' recess on this because it looks like your personal feelings are getting the better of you and it's overriding your objective judgement.

Come back with a fresh and rested mind.

[Isaac]

TC: I strongly suggest you take a days' recess on this because it looks like your personal feelings are getting the better of you and it's overriding your objective judgement.

Come back with a fresh and rested mind.

TC: That's funny considering Ferno defaults to name-calling when someone disagrees with him.

Isaac, I know far more than Ferno when it comes to mental health issues. My husband's constant small strokes slowly made him mentally ill by most psychiatric definitions. There was no cure since all the damage was physical. He pretty much slowly become irritable, in pain, nearly deaf and blind and psychotic. All that was left for medical help were drugs, since dead brain cells are gone forever and depending on which brain cells die, weird behavior issues crop up. The drugs the doctors plied him with were horrible. They made him lethargic, stupid and nearly a zombie. He couldn't DO anything but lie around in a stupor during the day. He hated it because he liked doing things, even on the computer (he was an engineer after all), so he quit taking them. He was never a physical threat to me or the public, but his personality was forever ruined. He couldn't handle pain or confrontation without blowing up in a crazy rant. He couldn't go out in public since his interpersonal social skills were gone and he would get in verbal fights with people or even his docs. Even his last doc kicked us out of his office when he threw one of his rants over his refusal to take his medication for blood pressure, which also made him lethargic. That's not a medical professional, that's a jackass who shouldn't even be practicing. That's the state of mental health in the U.S.A. It sucks.

Ferno only cares about winning a gun debate and he makes stuff up as he goes, as I've already pointed out. And he basically told you to calm down in his last post, which is pretty condescending and also blowing off your experience. He doesn't care about what you have to say or what you've been through, because it doesn't help him feel like a winner. You're opening up to him and all he has to say verbatim is "please calm yourself" or "you're just too emotional to have this conversation with me".

It saddens me because when I joined this forum I thought was one of the smart ones, with some depth. And now he's like...

[Tunnelcat]

Ferno, answer my question. What makes you the expert on mental health? I already know I'm not an expert, just someone who's been through the metal health mill and now very much the wiser. Sorry Isaac. I couldn't resist. He can at least tell me WHY he thinks he knows better if he's going to ★■◆● at me and claim I'm tired and not thinking straight. I've had 17 years to think about it and get set it in stone.

Oh, and that Tennesse expulsion of those 2 black young legislators over a loud gun protest speech inside the chambers (not because of some criminal behavior which was the usual reason for expulsion in the past) has really blown up into a nasty mess.

[Krom]

So I read through the thread and couldn't find where Ferno claimed to be an expert on mental health. Perhaps he has is own experiences and just doesn't want to share them? I'm sure you could imagine why someone would act that way.

Anyway, since I'm here, I may as well engage in some more stating the obvious:

When it comes to mass shootings, mental illness is definitely the issue, but it's not individual mental illness that is the problem, it's the culture that is sick in the head, that's the problem.

Well "something" has to be broken when we have people willing to go out and murder children.

There are what...more than 300 million guns in this country...if guns were truly the problem, we would all be dead long ago.

Most recent estimates by the industry (dated between 2019 and 2022) are over 420 million guns. The only country on earth with more guns than people is also the country with the highest rate of gun violence in the world:
"Hmmm, well we have so many guns it can't be that!"
No, it is literally that, it is literally too many guns, you're completely mental if you don't understand that.

Gun culture is the problem [with gun violence], it has always been the problem, it will always be the problem. It is like trickle down economics, an insane idea that is continually debunked by reality but since conservatives can just substitute their own reality we keep getting murdered in the same dumb predictable ways. Conservatives are fermenting a culture where violence is the solution to all problems and the most accessible form of violence in America is guns. Conservative's gun culture is literally teaching children that the fastest, easiest and only way to solve problems is by shooting guns. All other proposed solutions are EVIL WOKE GAY TRANS COMMIE SOCIALISM and have no place in America. It doesn't take a genius from there to figure out that nothing finally gets one the attention and validation they have been wrongfully denied quite as effectively as murdering a school full of children with a military rifle. And then conservatives act all surprised like it is a total ★■◆●ing mystery why the outcasts and downtrodden who finally break under all the hate go on school shooting rampages.

[Ferno]

I will answer your question TC, as long as you can come back with a fresh mind. You're still too wound up about it right now and we need you to calm yourself.

[Spidey]

"Conservatives gun culture is literally teaching children that the fastest, easiest and only way to solve problems is by shooting guns."

Really, I thought that was Hollywood's job.

[Krom]

Hollywood follows the culture, not the other way around.