Stopped in to see what’s up and share an idea…

[Will Robinson]

Greetings, long time no see etc.

I have an idea I’m curious if you would support it.
Premise it is based on is Biden Harris and Trump should all be retired from leadership positions.
Hard to get that done with current conditions. But I think I have a way to do it.

Trump is going to likely get the repub nomination and the Dems will be delighted because they can probably beat him, even with Biden as their nominee.
If it looks like Trump is in real danger of impeachment and or conviction/prison I believe he would sell his children to get out of it.

So, the not crazy republicans go to him and say they will help him get elected if he makes their guy the vice president pick. I have no clue if that can actually be secured legally but my guess is each party gets to decide those rules so I’m running with it for this scenario. They tempt him with assurances that their VP will pardon him if he is faced with charges based on political dirty tricks, rogue prosecutors out to get him etc. etc. My choice is Tim Scott but I’m willing to go with any non-bat-★■◆●-crazy candidate.

Then, the day after he is inaugurated they go to the Dems and offer to vote for impeaching him.
As soon as he is impeached and found guilty and Scott is sworn in he then says ‘Sorry Trump but these charges are legit, I can’t pardon you’

Problem solved.

[Darth Wang]

the not crazy republicans

Error: Assumes existence of category not in evidence.

[Isaac]

Interesting scenario, but that sounds like more plot twists than an entire season of 'House of Cards'. Real-life politics, while full of surprises, usually doesn't play out like a tightly scripted political drama.

[Spidey]

Somewhere along the scenario the possibility that Biden gets reelected seems to be overlooked just because some "not crazy" Republicans get behind Trump's election.

My crystal ball says, one of two scenarios will happen.

The zombie will be reelected.
The White House will be run from behind bars.

BTW, nice to hear from you.

[Will Robinson]

Somewhere along the scenario the possibility that Biden gets reelected seems to be overlooked just because some "not crazy" Republicans get behind Trump's election.

My crystal ball says, one of two scenarios will happen.

The zombie will be reelected.
The White House will be run from behind bars.

BTW, nice to hear from you.

I guess I should do a better job describing my perception of the 'not crazy repubs' factor.
I am getting the impression that Trump is strong enough to make it close in spite of facing the steady drip of legitimate as well as politically charged indictments. He has lost a substantial margin of old school Republican/Conservative voters as well as what would have been his share of Independant/Other voters and they are seeking alternative candidates but if Trump gets the nomination they won't vote Biden but they also won't vote Trump either. That group will just stay home Election Day. If they rallied to his aid he could beat Biden.

I know it's a crazy scenario but it's the best legal solution I can come up with. Yes it's a like a bad movie plot but so is the historical record of the last 8+ years. It's not as crazy as the reality of of accepting Biden or Trump as the election we deserve. We suck but really? That badly?!?

If the 'Anyone but Trump or Biden' group could be offered a silver lining, that being Trumps VP pick, with the likelihood Trump will be removed...I think they would take that as their best chance to elect 'anyone but Trump or Biden.
The trick is timing the reveal of the plan that the VP will pardon Trump to coincide with Trumps perception that prison is a real possibility. He wouldn't give up hope that he could bully his way out of impeachment conviction and stay in office but he wouldn't be brave enough to bet his freedom on it so he would take the deal. Just like he took the same deal in 2016 when the GOP machine said we will back you if you take Pence on as VP. He thinks he came out on top in that one so of course he thinks he will survive this one too. He thinks he is the best at everything and better than everyone.

The part where VP refuses to pardon him is crazy but also a return to sanity. I think the world (minus the MAGA faction) would nominate the VP who doesn't pardon Trump for Nobel Peace Prize.

[Tunnelcat]

You know how many people I've heard say they don't want a Trump/ Biden rematch in 2024 and yet, that's what both parties are foisting on us yet again. Holy crap. On one side, we have a serial liar NY mobster traitor with delusions of personal gratification, autocracy and revenge. On the other, an addled old man who says he's for the working person, but is really just part of the out of touch rich elite using his political office to protect his own rotten ill begotten son. All this while he drives around in his older emission spewing gas guzzling Corvette and tells everyone else to drive an EV.

[vision]

Hi, former Republican here. I'm 100% supporting Biden for president. In fact, I can't wait to vote for him. I would gladly vote for a reasonable Republican but there doesn't seem to be any other than Mitt F'ing Romney, so there's that.

[Vander]

Hi Will. "Not crazy" Republicans will never dispose of Trump for the same reason they haven't already: he's petty and vindictive and commands the loyalty of too much of their constituency and will burn it all to the ground if challenged. They could've impeached him and had Pence. They could've impeached him after he already lost. The only way "not crazy" Republicans will ever be free of Trump is when he dies, and even then, they'll still pay him lip service.

[Tunnelcat]

If he dies, he'll become some sort of deity to his devoted followers and golden shrines will be built in his honor, so even in death, we'll never be rid of him. And Will, your plan has one major flaw. You're assuming that the not-crazy Republicans actually have backbones and would throw Trump under the bus after he's elected. In reality, most Republicans currently in office with a brain and a modicum of sanity, especially those in the House, are AFRAID of Trump and his followers, especially if he regains the power of the presidency yet again. Once Trump is president, they'd all cower in fear, immediately kowtowing, kissing his ring in supplication and would never EVER consider impeachment, too fearful of Trump's followers to do what's needed and a sniveling desire for political survival.

One of the few Republican candidates with the balls to speak out against Trump and a head on his shoulders to think rationally. He knows Trump is running for president to stay out of prison. He also doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting the Republican nomination.

https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/gop-p ... 9765189977

[Will Robinson]

Hi Will. "Not crazy" Republicans will never dispose of Trump for the same reason they haven't already: he's petty and vindictive and commands the loyalty of too much of their constituency and will burn it all to the ground if challenged. They could've impeached him and had Pence. They could've impeached him after he already lost. The only way "not crazy" Republicans will ever be free of Trump is when he dies, and even then, they'll still pay him lip service.

Stop scaring me with truth!
Today he said he was taking this persecution for all of us. It’s like he compares himself to Jesus crucified.
I can’t believe I actually celebrated his defeating Hillary thinking it will be good to have an outsider who is too rich to be bribed. My most naive moment I think….I certainly hope!

Ok. Another scenario. Biden could fear a loss and so he names a sane moderate democrat as his VP to gain some pragmatic conservative votes and then dies right after his inauguration.
Not nearly as cool of a plot twist as the first idea but it works out almost as well.

[Krom]

I checked over on the CNN home page and they had this massive banner text "Trump pleads not guilty..." and I laughed because its so stupid to call that news. I was almost looking for the subtitle underneath with "In other news: Water is wet.".

[Tunnelcat]

And Trump's lawyer went on Fox News today and pretty much admitted that Trump was quilty of interfering with the election.

[woodchip]

Hi Will. Glad to see you are still around. Now here's the real. If found guilt Trump appeals long enough to stay in race to get elected. The he pardons himself of all crimes. Then he ★■◆●-cans every leftist in DOJ and exposes the Bidens for the commie traitor he and his family really are. Peace and prosperity return to America. Amen.

[Vander]

"the real"

[Tunnelcat]

Woody, in one messianic crazy statement, just blew all of Will's grand how we finally rid ourselves of Trump ideas into dust.

And woody, as more indictments get piled onto Trump, that may rile up his crazy base even more. But it's starting to sink into more and more sane Independent Americans that Trump is a poisonous, vengeful, crooked human being that should never ever hold office again. You want a Republican for president? Start dipping into the well of sane smart people for candidates.

[Vander]

I've got a scenario. Republicans will continue to lose elections. They can't moderate their unpopular views because most of their wealthy benefactors are real nutjobs and won't let them, so they will continue to develop ever more ridiculous wedges divorced from reality to keep the constantly shrinking cohort of reactionaries engaged and agitated. Their rhetoric will continue to escalate and political violence will become more common. Then something will go too far and an inflection point will be hit where support utterly collapses, the hard right reactionaries will be stuffed back in the closet, and we'll all agree to go back to pretending they aren't there. "Not crazy" Republicans can than do things like acknowledge climate change or absurd inequality and claim a seat at the table discussing solutions. Then the cycle can start again.

[Will Robinson]

I've got a scenario. Republicans will continue to lose elections. They can't moderate their unpopular views because most of their wealthy benefactors are real nutjobs and won't let them, so they will continue to develop ever more ridiculous wedges divorced from reality to keep the constantly shrinking cohort of reactionaries engaged and agitated. Their rhetoric will continue to escalate and political violence will become more common. Then something will go too far and an inflection point will be hit where support utterly collapses, the hard right reactionaries will be stuffed back in the closet, and we'll all agree to go back to pretending they aren't there. "Not crazy" Republicans can than do things like acknowledge climate change or absurd inequality and claim a seat at the table discussing solutions. Then the cycle can start again.

You can literally change the designation 'Republican' to 'Democrat' in your post and it is still an accurate description! No exaggeration or hyperbole was used to make that assertion.

Yea I know lots of people will be triggered by that and try to argue a 'difference' between the two. There is a whole industry built upon that exploitation of emotion and gas lighting exercise. It's called 'American politics'.

Truth is the culture is eroding at an accelerated rate. If it continues much more on its current trajectory we will have elections called based on number of retweets and likes of our cult leaders. We are dangerously close to that being the core of the decision this time! I offer 'Dark Brandon' coffee as exhibit one...Biden will bump up a tick in the polls just because of the snark appeal factor. We are electing based on memes now.

If there is a god please, please, please god send me a supply of low altitude EMP bombs and a fleet of aircraft.

[Krom]

Only one party and political affiliation is behaving like a cult right now. That you even think the two parties are the same just shows that the conservatives media silo has successfully poisoned your well of information. It is a really simple tactic: You say "everyone is the same, two sides of the same coin, so its all meaningless, etc" which is entirely meant to depress turnout of opposition voters.

The Democratic party and the Republican party are both political parties and thus similar systems, but Conservatives and Liberals are pretty much nothing alike. The divide and differences between the two are enormous to the extent that it is pretty much impossible for one side to understand the views of the other side. Historically it has never been this divided or straight up different before. Your claim that you could flip the designations and it would still be accurate couldn't possibly be further from the truth.

[Top Gun]

The most telling difference is that a Trump supporter could yell "Biden sucks!" and a whole bunch of people planning to vote for Biden would say "Yeah, Biden really sucks." That doesn't happen to any significant degree in the other direction.

[Tunnelcat]

Even worse, you yell "Trump sucks" in a crowd of HIS supporters and you're more like to get beat to a pulp.

[Will Robinson]

The Democratic party and the Republican party are both political parties and thus similar systems, but Conservatives and Liberals are pretty much nothing alike.

No, they are intrinsically identical. Humans of the same era and environment displaying the same traits and flaws. The differences you can actually point to to divide them into two groups are merely the responses to machinations they embraced following their human behavior instincts. The reason we pick sides in any conflict can usually be manipulated. The sub culture someone lives in could help you predict which side of the debate they will likely stand on but R’s and D’s are embracing and or rejecting bad ideas from outside influences at the same rate.
The political division is pretty consistently even and actually reflects that we are the same if you consider we are a species who seeks safety in numbers, group think as a security blanket in times of strife. Your view seems to suggest we are a bunch of smart people and an equally large bunch of crazy people who magically maintained equality in numbers and power distribution for centuries!

The fact that you put so much more faith in the character of one of two groups broken out of the same sample set, based simply on their preferences in choosing which charismatic liar resonates with them, is problematic and both political parties depend on that behavior to keep you perceiving the situation for what they have presented to you. ‘It’s the other people that cause all the problems.’
Some people love only country music. Some love only heavy metal. Only a fool would suggest only one of those groups actually hears music.

The divide and differences between the two are enormous to the extent that it is pretty much impossible for one side to understand the views of the other side.

A bit of a Freudian slip there I think.
And didn’t you accuse me of being unable to see the truth based on alleged exposure to right wing media?
What is your actual understanding of the makeup of my media exposure? Very little to none would be the truth.

I think you are projecting that ‘inability to understand’ what you can only presume is ‘the other side’ that you spoke of.

[Tunnelcat]

2 different sides, my side is right and your side sucks, no compromise in any way, shape or form and absolute unrelenting hate for the other side. Trump has been playing this negative partisanship like a seasoned concert pianist at his rallies, the ONLY intelligent trait that's got him anywhere in politics. Biden says very little, which is probably wiser, but not as effective at riling up the other side. This is the toxic soup of political division we're currently stewing in. If our democracy survives into the future, I'd be surprised.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... -politics/

[Krom]

What is your actual understanding of the makeup of my media exposure? Very little to none would be the truth.

Someone leaning conservative doesn't come up with the "both sides-ism" views you are expressing in this thread in a vacuum.

[Darth Wang]

Let's see, one side of the current American political spectrum is in favor of equal rights for everyone, equal treatment for minorities, affordable healthcare for all American citizens, proper science education and critical thinking taught in schools, protecting the environment, reducing income inequality so everyone has a chance for a comfortable standard of living, protecting women's rights, stopping the spread of deadly diseases, preventing mass shootings in schools and other public places, freedom of religion and belief, fighting against hate and discrimination, actually acknowledging our history so we don't repeat it, humane treatment of immigrants and asylum seekers, protecting the rights and livelihood of children, and many other humane, progressive ideas.

Meanwhile, the other side is in favor of:

- Discriminating against minorities
- White supremacy and literal Nazi ideals
- Continuing to jack up the prices of privately - run healthcare so people literally can't afford to go to the doctor
- Teaching racist lies, mythology, and ignorance to children.
- Destroying the very planet we live on (and that Christians believe God gave us to take care of)
- Letting the richest 1% (actually a lot less than 1%) of citizens avoid taxes and get richer while more and more people go bankrupt and homeless
- Forcing women to give birth to their rapists' babies
- Spreading lies and conspiracy theories about vaccines that lead to increased hospitalizations and deaths
- Doing their best to make sure there are absolutely no restrictions on gun ownership whatsoever, despite hundreds of mass shootings in the US every year
- Attempting to establish a Christian theocracy, where non-Christians would be treated as second class citizens
- Spreading hateful lies and conspiracies that literally get people murdered
- Whitewashing history and trying to pretend that the US never did anything wrong or racist in the past
- Blatantly racist policies aimed at Hispanics under the guise of "protecting our borders" (even when the people in question are legal citizens)
- Forcing underage children into arranged marriages so they can be raped by grown men (while ironically spreading lies and conspiracy theories about Democrats being pedophiles)

But yeah, they're exactly the same.

And of course I know that Democrats aren't perfect and often aren't doing enough to stamp out this stuff, or even enabling it, but not nearly as much as the GOP does.

[Will Robinson]

What is your actual understanding of the makeup of my media exposure? Very little to none would be the truth.

Someone leaning conservative doesn't come up with the "both sides-ism" views you are expressing in this thread in a vacuum.

What is the context of “vacuum” in your comment? Having no bias? Or having no knowledge of the subject at all?

I challenged your assertion that ‘my thinking is flawed due to biased media’.
Was your assertion conceived in a vacuum? Perhaps with no real knowledge at all as I assumed? Or you came to your assumption because your own media consumption has you biased?
Either that or you really are informed to my media consumption and you just prefer to say ‘leans conservative’ because that is a good dog whistle to use in this case?

And did you write “both sides-ism” to assign some kind of negative status to my comment? In my view the people on both sides are basically the same. You say they are worlds apart. I offered some context for why I believe what I do. You offered to disqualify my comments based on….what, really?
That I must be wrong because I must be ‘one of them’?!?

[Will Robinson]

Well Krom your dog whistle is working! DarthWang is in the house!

Pardon me Darth I’ll not try to calm your triggered state, it was predicted and you are Pavlov’s responsibility now.

[Krom]

You are asserting that both parties are the same (a bunch of "charismatic liars"), which is a known disinformation tactic designed to depress democratic voter turnout that is popular in the right wing media silo. Hence because you make these assertions unironically, we know you are subscribing to very bias media that is either knowingly or unknowingly furthering these disinformation tactics. It is one of those things where we know it is wrong because it has been litigated back to the original sources a long time ago and we fully understand why it is in circulation, so this is really nothing new to us.

It is basically like why one of the easiest ways to avoid scams is to never give money to anyone who initiates contact with you. Because the overwhelming majority of scams are people trying to get your money. If you fully understand the motivation behind scams (to scam you into giving them money) you can detect them so much easier. This is one of those things.

"Democrats and republicans are fundamentally the same." NO THEY AREN'T! Vote Democrat! It absolutely will make a positive difference!

[Tunnelcat]

Quit bitching about dog whistles and triggers and put forth resonable counters to everything Darth claimed about the current platform of Republican Party or STFU. I'd say he was spot on. The Republican Party and everything they stand for right now is nothing but a flaming bag of ★■◆●.

[Darth Wang]

Quit bitching about dog whistles and triggers and put forth resonable counters to everything Darth claimed about the current platform of Republican Party or STFU. I'd say he was spot on. The Republican Party and everything they stand for right now is nothing but a flaming bag of ★■◆●.

The positions they take on any one of those issues would prevent me from voting for them (unless the only plausible alternatives were even worse). The fact that they take all of them makes it so I can't ever see myself voting Republican.

Also, here's what you can expect if you vote Republican in 2024:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/2 ... s-00107498

Doubling down on destroying the environment. They are literal Saturday morning cartoon villains at this point.

[Will Robinson]

Quit bitching about dog whistles and triggers and put forth resonable counters to everything Darth claimed about the current platform of Republican Party or STFU. I'd say he was spot on. The Republican Party and everything they stand for right now is nothing but a flaming bag of ★■◆●.

I don’t need to refute it. I haven’t read whatever is behind the links but scanning the list I bet a third of it is true, a third of it not at all representative of the majority of conservative voters and a third is hyperbole.But the reason I don’t need to refute is I never said republicans politicians are better or different than democrat politicians ( I may have used “leaders”) remember, my point is the left isn’t remarkably smarter or benign. Both are, to the same degree, self serving, compromised, corrupt, hypocritical etc
Sure if you prefer the shiny objects that one party pays lip service to then vote for that empty promise. But just answer for yourself, don’t even say it here, privately, honestly ask yourself. Is Joe Biden remarkably more moral than Donald Trump?!? Lol!

They are the best either side could do and now 4 years later and in spite of how their qualifications, morals, intelligence etc. are now further shown to be lacking, they are once again the best BOTH parties can offer!!

That is all the proof anyone with a brain needs, particulars of which shiny object they adorn themselves with aside they are the same. Or if you want to be pedantic about my use of ‘they are the same’ then change it to in spite of their professed goals and shiny object display ‘the net result of their work’ leaves us in the same condition. Progressing toward failure.
Our leaders are quite happy with the status quo. To solve it would require real sacrifice and they don’t do that. The just exempt themselves from to problems and sell exemptions to their sponsors. Both sides do it and Krom understanding of that point being disinformation is completely, albeit sadly, laughable.

[Vander]

You can literally change the designation 'Republican' to 'Democrat' in your post and it is still an accurate description! No exaggeration or hyperbole was used to make that assertion.

I don't think that's true at all. Their differences matter! What they support matters! What they reject matters! Motivations matter! What their constituents support and reject matters!

Yes, the two parties serve a lot of the same masters and their constituents are alike in many ways. I mean, we're all Americans, right? We're supposed to at least pretend we're all on the same team? But Republicans don't do that too much anymore, do they? They behave like THEY are the REAL Americans, and their fellow citizens are vile enemies in a way that just isn't reciprocated. And this didn't start with Trump. It is a purposeful outcome and a lot of money went into creating it.

You can lament how stupid much of our politics or culture has become, and I'd probably agree with a lot of it in a 'get off my lawn' way. But the parties are NOT symmetrical.

[Tunnelcat]

I've voted conservative at times in the past, but there's no way in hell I'd vote for anyone in the party right now they're so nutty, bigoted and extreme. Concerning the climate, as I speak we're in a high risk drought zone. A fire just started south of me in the Willamette Valley today. It's now a level 3 get out/leave evacuation it's so bad. What I find funny is that most of the wild fires are in rural areas and affect mostly conservative homeowners. Same in the South with tornadoes and hurricanes. Mostly rural conservative areas that get hit the hardest with climate change and yet, they still fight the concept.

[Darth Wang]

Basically, if I have to choose between eating an unhealthy, cheap fast food burger, and a pile of decaying roadkill, my choice is obvious, I'm not holding out for gourmet steak.

[Top Gun]

But just answer for yourself, don’t even say it here, privately, honestly ask yourself. Is Joe Biden remarkably more moral than Donald Trump?!? Lol!

Uh...yes? By a country mile? Taking out personal politics, effectiveness as a leader, anything else, and just limiting the question to that one basic level: one of these two men is a morally-bankrupt, irredeemable sack of donkey ★■◆●, and the other one is a fairly normal old politician.

[Krom]

But just answer for yourself, don’t even say it here, privately, honestly ask yourself. Is Joe Biden remarkably more moral than Donald Trump?!? Lol!

Uh...yes? By a country mile? Taking out personal politics, effectiveness as a leader, anything else, and just limiting the question to that one basic level: one of these two men is a morally-bankrupt, irredeemable sack of donkey ★■◆●, and the other one is a fairly normal old politician.

More like an astronomical unit. Joe Biden openly supports even his pathetic fail son because because failure and all he is still family, but Joe Biden refuses to put any pressure on the justice department or prosecutors or investigations going after Hunter no matter how pointless and wasteful they may be. Donald Trump once asked if he could pardon himself and is constantly attacking any investigations or charges brought against him and is actively trying to rile up violent mobs to destroy them and anyone or anything else he disagrees with. Also "Lol!" there is one really strong hint at Will's media exposure being a toxic cloud of brain corroding miasma.

That is all the proof anyone with a brain needs, particulars of which shiny object they adorn themselves with aside they are the same. Or if you want to be pedantic about my use of ‘they are the same’ then change it to in spite of their professed goals and shiny object display ‘the net result of their work’ leaves us in the same condition. Progressing toward failure.
Our leaders are quite happy with the status quo. To solve it would require real sacrifice and they don’t do that. The just exempt themselves from to problems and sell exemptions to their sponsors. Both sides do it and Krom understanding of that point being disinformation is completely, albeit sadly, laughable.

And what party is marching full speed ahead towards the failure future where the entrenched wealthy interests control everything? One of the shiny objects the Democrats like to dangle in front of the voters is doing something about wealth inequality which is the thing you are actually having a problem with right now, where as the Republicans absolutely hate anything brought forward to address inequality on any level whatsoever. Did you not notice that when Republicans were fully put in charge of government the only real proper channels legislative accomplishment they passed was the worst "tax reform" bill in history that was a massive handout to the wealthy?

The democrats could put forward a bill featuring the most stern language they could possibly summon of "It sure would be nice if the wealthy could voluntarily and non-binding share only the smallest most insignificant of crumbs from their wealth like the stuff that they were going to discard anyway with the rest of us pretty please and thank you." and the republicans would fly into a frothing rage shouting "commies!" "socialism" "anti-free market!" "dictatorship!" "migrants!" "minorities!" even louder than they normally do.

What you are saying is "It is all pointless, your vote doesn't matter, so liberals should just give up their shiny objects and stay home which will conveniently let the conservatives install their grievance obsessed fascist oppressive dictatorship.".

Again, again, again! The parties are NOT the same and suggesting they are is toxic disinformation.

[Will Robinson]

...
Joe Biden openly supports even his pathetic fail son because because failure and all he is still family, but Joe Biden refuses to put any pressure on the justice department or prosecutors or investigations going after Hunter no matter how pointless and wasteful they may be. ...

I think there is a lot of evidence, bank records, testimony from IRS agents involved in the case, a stonewalling Attny General that won't address the complaint other than to say he hasn't protected Biden and his son but the prosecutors and agent were told to stand down...stalled their warrants to search locations until after the lawyers for Hunter Biden were given a weeks heads up about the warrant, millions of dollars going through shell companies to his family members.

If the left had *half* of that against Trump would you be calling it pointless and wasteful? Lol!! You know you wouldn't!

Now I'm hearing in the next couple weeks they will have lots more paper trails from banks used to funnel the money. We will see, you can never trust a politician talking about 'the other side' completely. Remember democrat members of the intelligence committee rushing to the mic after being read in on classified briefings telling America they just saw evidence that will put Trump in prison for treason regarding the whole Russia bull★■◆● story? That 'evidence' was used in the impeachment...well apparently the treason parts, the ties to Russia etc were all bull★■◆● and not even there in the impeachment process!

In the meantime I'd love to hear the excuses anyone wants to make for what has been revealed. Numerous payments to Bidens, children in the family included, from foreign government and business entities. What exactly is the purpose for Bidens grand daughter getting money from them. And if it is a legitimate payment, why pass it through shell companies that have no real business/income to report?
A shell company with no other business purpose moves money from Ukraine to Trump--major story.
A shell company with no other business purpose moves money from Ukraine to Bidens--- a non story.

That is all the proof anyone with a brain needs, particulars of which shiny object they adorn themselves with aside they are the same. Or if you want to be pedantic about my use of ‘they are the same’ then change it to in spite of their professed goals and shiny object display ‘the net result of their work’ leaves us in the same condition. Progressing toward failure.
Our leaders are quite happy with the status quo. To solve it would require real sacrifice and they don’t do that. The just exempt themselves from to problems and sell exemptions to their sponsors. Both sides do it and Krom understanding of that point being disinformation is completely, albeit sadly, laughable.

And what party is marching full speed ahead towards the failure future where the entrenched wealthy interests control everything?

What party? Both of them! that's the point. You really think the the wealthy interests, entrenched in their own interest, are all supporting only half of the government leaders? You haven't been paying attention for most of your lifetime if you believe that!

you are saying is "It is all pointless, your vote doesn't matter, so liberals should just give up their shiny objects and stay home which will conveniently let the conservatives install their grievance obsessed fascist oppressive dictatorship.".

I never said that. You are propping up a straw man argument. I said, pretty damn clearly that the current state of affairs is terrible and we deserve better. I blame us and our leaders. To fix it we need to defeat them...BOTH sides of 'them'

You want to dismiss what I say as 'disinformation, a conspiracy to fool people into wasting their vote'.
I think that shows just how useful you are to 'them' (read: *both* of 'them').

[Krom]

You *think* there is evidence, absent of actually having any, so you keep the investigations alive. Remember, as long as you keep the investigations alive you don't actually have to present any findings! Because "We're still investigating!". How long have conservatives been investigating Hunter's business dealings and not really turning up anything of merit? Yeah, its all going to come to light any day now, just like all the other crimes democrats commit every second. How many decades and billions of dollars worth of conservative investigations that quietly closed up with no charges once the people being investigated weren't relevant to the national stage anymore do you think we have sat through already?

Wolf! Wolf! You say while barking up the wrong tree at squirrels as Trump is literally chewing your ass off.

I never said that. You are propping up a straw man argument. I said, pretty damn clearly that the current state of affairs is terrible and we deserve better. I blame us and our leaders. To fix it we need to defeat them...BOTH sides of 'them'

You want to dismiss what I say as 'disinformation, a conspiracy to fool people into wasting their vote'.
I think that shows just how useful you are to 'them' (read: *both* of 'them').

Except like literally the end of the paragraph again, and the last several posts! It is the same tactic "BOTH SIDES so you should piss away your vote and allow the conservatives to win!".

Okay, let me spell this out for you: The Republican party is a Cult. We know it is a Cult. They know it is a Cult. They know that no matter what happens the considerable Republican base will show up and vote straight party ticket Republican. We all know it because the conservative media silo information control/poisoning the well is so incredibly pervasive and self reinforcing that nobody in it even questions it anymore. So all they need to do to win is to make sure not enough people show up to vote Democrat to cancel out the Republican locked in base. Convincing others to vote third party because *both sides* is the same thing. As long as you can suppress democratic votes enough you win by default! It is like a game of chicken, only along a cliff face so whoever swerves first dies automatically, and the republican base is a freight train on rail tracks.

[Will Robinson]

You *think* there is evidence, absent of actually having any ....

I know Biden said the laptop was "a Russian disinformation campaign" and 99% of the media, all the democrats all over social media were parroting that narrative.
Now I *think* it has been proven to be a fact.

I know Biden had said he "never talked to his son about his business or business partners".
Right after that evidence I *think* I know about was testified to, with corroborating evidence and witnesses, Biden changed his position to "I never was in business with my son".

I think Biden and all his supporters in the media have said there is no money....then they changed it to say there is no money to connect to Joe Biden and refuse to explain why Bidens son, brother and granddaughter did get the money, multiple millions of dollars I *think* is the figure....so far....
So I *think* I know what will be said once that denial is proven to also be a lie.

I know for all the months that the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress the Republicans could only ask for investigations and Biden's Justice Department and the Democrats in control of Congress said....well, they said the same things you are saying. Like, really verbatim, weird coincidence? Like a talking point memo has been going out weekly during all that time. You could tune in to all the media sources you want and hear the same phrases being used as if there was a 'hive mind' in control of their mouths.

I *think* I noticed right after Republicans took control of the House they stopped just talking about the laptop and what they suspected was going on and opened investigations in a committee. And in a relatively short time they have proven they Laptop is real, the conversations Biden 'never had' were documented, now more recently the money trail has been picked up on and government whistle blowers in the IRS have given testimony to support what I *think*. So we will see if the rest of what I *think* is real too.

And of course we all know if the shoe was on the other foot, and had the same evidence that you say isn't real, you know, the same evidence of Hunter Don Jr. calling foreign business and government leaders and 'demanding payment and oh, by the way, here's my Dad on the phone...' that evidence, then the impeachment of Trump for a phone call would have been successful and we wouldn't be here today having to worry about the choice between Biden Trump.

[Tunnelcat]

I don’t need to refute it. I haven’t read whatever is behind the links but scanning the list I bet a third of it is true, a third of it not at all representative of the majority of conservative voters and a third is hyperbole.But the reason I don’t need to refute is I never said republicans politicians are better or different than democrat politicians ( I may have used “leaders”) remember, my point is the left isn’t remarkably smarter or benign. Both are, to the same degree, self serving, compromised, corrupt, hypocritical etc
Sure if you prefer the shiny objects that one party pays lip service to then vote for that empty promise. But just answer for yourself, don’t even say it here, privately, honestly ask yourself. Is Joe Biden remarkably more moral than Donald Trump?!? Lol!

They are the best either side could do and now 4 years later and in spite of how their qualifications, morals, intelligence etc. are now further shown to be lacking, they are once again the best BOTH parties can offer!!

That is all the proof anyone with a brain needs, particulars of which shiny object they adorn themselves with aside they are the same. Or if you want to be pedantic about my use of ‘they are the same’ then change it to in spite of their professed goals and shiny object display ‘the net result of their work’ leaves us in the same condition. Progressing toward failure.
Our leaders are quite happy with the status quo. To solve it would require real sacrifice and they don’t do that. The just exempt themselves from to problems and sell exemptions to their sponsors. Both sides do it and Krom understanding of that point being disinformation is completely, albeit sadly, laughable.

LOL, how about ALL of what Darth posted is TRUE. If anything, Darth didn't even list some the more egregious stuff Trump is guilty of, the worst being fomenting an insurrection after he LOST the election so he could illegally stay in power like some damn dictator, violating the will of the voters. Of course, only people on the left mention the violence or death threats that were directed towards state election workers during the 2020 election because of the false conspiracy theories Trump and crew (Rudi Giuliani) were spreading. Some "Republicans" sure believed it. During the last midterms, armed people were standing outside ballot drop boxes in mostly Red States, which probably intimidated a lot of voters. Someone does that here, I'd flip them off and dare them to shoot me. MF's. Why don't you quit blithering, search the interwebs and find all the stuff the left has done as a counter. If you bother to search, and not on the usual designated right wing sites, you will find some ammunition other than dog whistles and bull★■◆●, because yes, the left has passed their fair share of crap as well. That's why I'm not a Democrat. I'm an Independent voter who at this point in time avoids conservative causes like the plague, because some of their crap affects my rights personally. But according to people like woodchip and Neo, I'm a dyed in the wool socialist pervert.

Maybe most "Republican" voters are either ignorant of what their elected politicians stand for or vote for while holding elected office or are just clueless sheep who only vote the party line because their church tells them to, or they hate the left so much they just knee jerk punch that "Republican" button in the voting booth out of spite every time without thinking. But lot of "Republicans", especially Trumpublicans, (and I'm not saying all conservatives here) never dig deeper into what's actually being passed by their elected officials. There's also a significant minority that love Trump unquestionably, almost like a God Savior, support him to the bitter end and agree with all this rancid, fascist stuff being passed in Red States and deliberately want officials put into office to carry all that out. In Florida and much of the South, you can be damn sure they actually KNOW what's being passed into law by Republicans and AGREE with it 100%. Besides, if people aren't smart enough to see what a threat to democracy Trump is, or WHY he wants to be elected president so bad again (to keep his ass out of prison and get to political revenge once in office), THEY'RE a threat to democracy. It's not some leftie conspiracy or persecution against poor little Trump. The man is a poisonous blight on this country. Say what you want about Biden, and I don't agree he should run again because he's just another old line Dem who's mind is fading, but any illegal crap he's done while in office absolutely pails in comparison to what is Trump actually guilty of.

[vision]

No, they are intrinsically identical.

Totally wrong. They are the same in that both parties are corporations who server corporate interests, but one party wants to imprison me and my friends and the other party wants everyone to have free health care and more opportunities to create personal wealth. There is such a dramatic difference between Trump and Biden as people it's hard to overstate how much healthier the later is compared to the poisonous former. It's really incredible how I went from a card-carrying republican, to saying "any democrat but Biden" three years ago to "can't wait to vote for Biden" today. The republican party is full of insane people disconnected from reality.