Reality Check... D3 Needs PXO

[TA]One · Post by **[TA]One** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:02 am

Suzanna, I'm sorry to read that Freespace 2 is in dier straits as well, without PXO. I wish you luck, and I keep my fingers crossed that PXO will come back in some form or another for all games that were dependant on PXO. If by some miracle it does come back, I just hope it isn't too late.

Suncho, reading some of your statements I'm sure I'm not alone wondering what your reasoning is. And I don't mean to pick on you, but you seem to be the biggest opponent to PXO so I need to address you directly to better understand where your mind is at.

You stated:

"Now that PXO is gone, we have options again! The server list is still relatively fixed, but anyone can get to SOD or SeeMePlayMe and play whatever level they want whenever they want. More of both hardcore players and newbies are able to chat and use the internet at the same time because they're not trapped in the PXO interface. Thusly, the cycle is broken and the crappy level selection will slowly improve.

This was a big part of my argument when I had that petition up to get PXO shut down." - Suncho

Let's analyze that "big part" of your argument, because to me it makes absolutely no sense. People could chat with Gate or GLMax and use the internet at the same time. What difference does it make whether PXO is up or down in regards to people using SOD? PXO didn't stop people from using SOD. You're telling us that "newbies" having to take the extra step of finding a 3rd-party chat interface first; and then finding out about SOD is somehow easier than the old way of using the built-in PXO chat interface and finding out about SOD. This is ludicrous. And just how were they "trapped in" by the PXO interface? All anyone had to do was hit alt-tab or the "windows key", start a SOD and play. The same way many are unfortunately having to do now to find servers where other people are playing; now that we don't have the easy-to-use built-in PXO server listings.

What did stop people from using SOD was the fact that for many, the SOD servers were just too lossy. I know that myself and others on the West Coast didn't use SOD for that reason alone. The other reason SOD didn't get used much is the same reason many levels - new or old - don't get played much. There simply aren't enough people playing this game, let alone organized groups of people willing to start a SOD and all jump in.

If I have misunderstood these direct quotes from you, please clarify.

-One

PS Suncho, even if you are personally going to recruit each and every newbie, tell them how to update and get D3 working, and direct them to one non-PXO default chat interface - the small number you may be able to recruit won't replace those we've lost since PXO went down, and won't be able to replace those players that we will continue to lose.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:59 am

Suzanna, if you're still reading this, I saw what the KQuery guy said about tracking FS2 servers. I made a post on Kali's forums about it, and I'll let you know the result.

Gammaray · Post by **Gammaray** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:14 pm

Skyalmian wrote:It is on an upward trend, even though it's an ever-so-slight one. A couple of days ago, for ex., a lot of D3k's Halo-only players started to play D3. They're part of the rise.

and only a temporary one... this rise you guys are seeing is only recuperation, IMO.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:36 pm

[TA]One wrote:Suncho, reading some of your statements I'm sure I'm not alone wondering what your reasoning is. And I don't mean to pick on you, but you seem to be the biggest opponent to PXO so I need to address you directly to better understand where your mind is at.

That's ok. I apologize for being vague. I was in a hurry and didn't have much time to formulate my post.

People could chat with Gate or GLMax and use the internet at the same time.

These are only the people who have managed to *write down* URLs to these programs and find out about them through the PXO chat interface. Newbies are not able to chat and use the internet at the same time, which is neccessary for critical newbie stuff such as patching and learning how to play the game. Many of the newbies I ran into on PXO just wanted to play. They didn't feel like downloading Gate or GLmax and they didn't understand why it was necessary.

[TA]One wrote:What difference does it make whether PXO is up or down in regards to people using SOD? PXO didn't stop people from using SOD.

This is an issue of coordinating the start of a game from chat. It's difficult to do in PXO because half the people are using the in-game interface which causes the following problems:
1. They can't get to SOD because they're already in D3.
2. They can't read people's messages because they scroll by too fast.
3. Players have to remember the game name from chat before deciding which game to join.

[TA]One wrote:You're telling us that "newbies" having to take the extra step of finding a 3rd-party chat interface first; and then finding out about SOD is somehow easier than the old way of using the built-in PXO chat interface and finding out about SOD. This is ludicrous.

No. That's not what I'm telling you. What I'm trying to say is that "newbies" having to take the extra *STEPS* of registering for a PXO account, then asking people in chat how to get to games, writing down URLs for patch files, writing down URLs for gate, then getting a group of people together to join a game when half the people don't even see that he wanted to start a game because there's no scroll bar is somehow harder than the new way of umm... not having to do all that crazy stuff.

[TA]One wrote: And just how were they "trapped in" by the PXO interface? All anyone had to do was hit alt-tab or the "windows key", start a SOD and play.

You're assuming they have a video card with drivers that won't wig out when they alt+tab out of Descent 3.

[TA]One wrote:The same way many are unfortunately having to do now to find servers where other people are playing; now that we don't have the easy-to-use built-in PXO server listings.

Whoever's doing that doesn't understand how to find games.

[TA]One wrote:What did stop people from using SOD was the fact that for many, the SOD servers were just too lossy. I know that myself and others on the West Coast didn't use SOD for that reason alone.

SOD isn't good for some people. I can't argue with that. But I have yet to meet anyone who had connect problems to SeeMePlayMe.

[TA]One wrote:The other reason SOD didn't get used much is the same reason many levels - new or old - don't get played much.

The reason levels don't get played much is PXO.

[TA]One wrote:There simply aren't enough people playing this game, let alone organized groups of people willing to start a SOD and all jump in.

The reason there aren't enough people playing this game is PXO.

[TA]One wrote:PS Suncho, even if you are personally going to recruit each and every newbie, tell them how to update and get D3 working, and direct them to one non-PXO default chat interface - the small number you may be able to recruit won't replace those we've lost since PXO went down, and won't be able to replace those players that we will continue to lose.

I think what we all need to realize is that it's *EASIER* to recruit newbies now that PXO is gone. Descent 3 is out in the public and visible to players of all games. Now that PXO is gone, it doesn't take any effort to recruit people anymore. Just by simply playing, we show the world that we exist and people out there will become interested. We're now a part of the global gaming community.

What's the best thing we can all do for the growth D3 community now? We just need to play our hearts out! =D Playing our hearts out on PXO may have been fun, but nobody outside of Descent 3 was able to see us playing so we weren't making an impact. A lot of people don't care whether they make an impact when they play, but they play just the same. Now those people will be promoting our game whether they like it or not.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:54 pm

i don't understand where suncho pulls half of his ideas from, but the one important thing that seperates him from everyone else is that he is actually trying to do something that he thinks will help instead of just complaining.

pipsqueak10 · Post by **pipsqueak10** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:22 pm

What Kurupt said!

IsAB · Post by **IsAB** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:50 pm

My ?0.2,
First, the only loss that this community has had from PXO being down is those players (i cant think of one but i guess they exist) that are either not informed of the new ways to meet or too lazy to change habbits, i dont see how pxo being down can cause us to loose any more players, those that hanged around obviusly heard the word and did change habbits and i dont see why they would leave.
Now, it is true that by running Descent on a closed lobby fashion (pxo), the game was open only for those that owned it.
Pxo was like the house of a private social club, one with plenty of comforts(ingame chat,server browser) where you needed to prove your club membership(owning D3) to get in, ideally people would hear about the club in an advertisement, or from a friend of them that was a member and they'd pay in advance for their membership becouse they would be thrilled about it.
The club didnt advertise very much,and had some pretty strict rules for new members(it is a hard game) and never got to be very big.

Well, it looks like the club was evicted from its house, now its members have to gather in a special complex for similar clubs, sharing their space with others,the new place is crowded,hot and the service isnt as good as before.
Some members thought that after the eviction the club dismantled, some others didnt like the new place, and most of those that remained think back with bitter nostalgy about their lost comforts.
There are some that see something positive in the change, the opportunity for the club to expand,now that its activities are public for other people to see,and not just for other members, they may be wrong (not in my opinion), but there's no reason to bust their balls is there?

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:55 pm

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:28 pm

if anyone on this board loved you, they'd go to jail.

when you turn 18 give me a call, i'll show you what the black bee is.

[TA]One · Post by **[TA]One** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:23 pm

"Newbies are not able to chat and use the internet at the same time, which is neccessary for critical newbie stuff such as patching and learning how to play the game. Many of the newbies I ran into on PXO just wanted to play. They didn't feel like downloading Gate or GLmax and they didn't understand why it was necessary." - Suncho

I don't agree. A third-party chat interface was never necessary for patching or learning how to play the game. Granted, other chat programs make things easier than PXO chat, but they certainly aren't necessary. How many D3 veterans learned how to play this game because they had Gate, and how many learned because they just played?

As for your statements about starting a SOD, no one is arguing against the fact that other chat programs made organizing a SOD game easier. But using the PXO chat interface did not make it IMPOSSIBLE for people to organize a SOD game. And more to the point, a working PXO chat in no way stopped people from finding and using other programs like Gate or GLMax. If players could find out about SOD servers, they certainly could write a URL down and get Gate or GLMax.

As for my statement about starting a SOD game by using Alt-Tab, you stated: "You're assuming they have a video card with drivers that won't wig out when they Alt-Tab out of Descent 3." If you read my post to Testi who brought up using the Alt-Tab in the first place, it should be abundantly clear that I am not assuming that. Again, whether players were using PXO chat, Gate, or GLMax - having a working PXO chat did nothing to stop people from being able to start a SOD.

"What I'm trying to say is that 'newbies' having to take the extra *STEPS* of registering for a PXO account, then asking people in chat how to get to games, writing down URLs for patch files, writing down URLs for gate, then getting a group of people together to join a game when half the people don't even see that he wanted to start a game because there's no scroll bar is somehow harder than the new way of umm... not having to do all that crazy stuff." - Suncho

Again, I won't argue with you that other chat programs make it easier to get started with D3. What I wonder is where, theoretically, we are likely to get a greater number of newbies from. Are we more likely to get a larger number of newbies from those who find it from third-party chat and game listing services (the Suncho way), or were we more likely to get a larger number of newbies the old way - from those who bought the game, or had it come bundled with other hardware or software, and then hopped into PXO chat. If we were more likely to get newbies the old way, then I can't see how anyone could argue against the fact that we need PXO to be up and running. Do you know for sure that we will eventually have more people playing now that PXO is down? Can anyone know? All we know for sure is that fewer people are playing now than before PXO went down.

If we are unlikely to get a significant number of new players either the new way or the old way, how can anyone not understand that PXO being down is bad for D3. And again, as I stated in my first post, I applaud the efforts of Suncho or anyone else trying to recruit players. But when Suncho stated â??If PXO comes back, Iâ??m giving up on D3 entirelyâ?

Zero! · Post by **Zero!** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:29 pm

well i hope it stays down cus i forgot my login and password

too lazy to make a new one

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:53 pm

[quote="[TA]One"]But when Suncho stated â??If PXO comes back, Iâ??m giving up on D3 entirelyâ?

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:53 pm

Suncho wrote:When jumping so quick to lay blame on the players, you might want to step back a moment and think about why players in other games (UT2K4) don't pick bad levels. If you can answer that question and tell me what the difference (besides PXO) is between us and them then I'm all ears.

There are more of them.

There are more players, more level designers, and a larger community in general.

Let me explain what this therefore leads to. First, players of all skillsets are represented in any large Unreal Tournament game. You have a few elites, a few moderates, and a few newbies, all battling in the same level. There is something for everyone to do, someone to kill and be killed by. Not the same as in Descent, where almost everyone playing is an expert waiting to kick the ass of whatever newbies try the game. New blood, therefore, is promoted in a self-reinforcing system, unlike Descent where it has become stale and new pilots are more often than not new aliases.

Because of the high standards set visually by the original game, players come to expect better maps from the community. Visuals will rope the interested players in, the gameplay will keep them there. Content produced in "bonus packs" from the creators themselves reinforces these expectations.

But how does this lead to new maps being played on the servers and why are the bad maps squeezed out? As part of the massive Unreal community, there are several map review sites. Some are organized like gaming magazines, with one gamers describing each level's highlights and lowlights. Others, which often double as download archives, allow for user feedback. The maps that best meet the expectations, both visually and mechnically, are singled out from the rest in this process. They are mentioned and promoted on sites that get thousands of visitors a day. Natural selection dictates the maps have to be good. With so many mappers, it takes something outstanding in order to seperate yourself from the rest of the pack. You aren't going to have the case where an ugly map is popular merely because of the guy who made it. That "guy" has to have credentials to even be there.

Servers ops need not necessarily assign these levels to be played. Unreal Tournament has always had a voting mechanism that allows players to vote on the next map to be played, and an auto-download system to retrieve all content required to play said level. So players, curious at what all of the hooplah is about, are prone to try new maps when possible.

I would also be willing to bet, speculatively, that Unreal players are also far better than Descenters at accepting and trying new maps and content. The 2004 edition alone shipped with over 90 maps for all gameplay modes, each offering its own unique take. Some are large and sprawling, like Asbestos. Others are small and simplistic, like Gael. Still others bring bizarre new mechanics into the game, like the Morpheus series. The point is, each map is different in its own right. Maps that are blatant copies with small modifications are shunned. Varicose Veins would be laughed out of existence. And because of the voting system, Unreal gamers will not get hung up on a handful of maps they will play ad nauseum. The map selection changes with every round and a skilled Unreal player has to be ready to quickly adapt to any new map.

They aren't stuck playing Halcyon all day and would prefer not to be. Yet perhaps "stuck" is too forgiving a word, for certainly no one is holding a pistol to your head, forcing you to play Halcyon. It is a conscious choice.

In Descent, you see an extreme reluctance to leave these "home levels" that the "pros" enjoy. And it's not a matter of this massive wave of newbie players gravitating towards them - it's a problem of everyone becoming fixated on them. Server ops offered a wide selection, but no one played them. So whose fault is that? Certainly, it's not the level designer who e-mailed the server op and asked for hosting and was granted it. And it's not the server op for taking a chance, since I'm sure they'd love to actually have people playing on their server. You could cry and point your finger at PXO, but it is merely that which connected us. It had auto-download and it fundamentally had the same things the Unreal tracker does. No, it's the fault of the players and the community for not supporting map development and not trying something new.

And your so-called plea for a renaissance is in vain because your development community is largely dead. You didn't play the new maps. You didn't even acknowledge their existence. You weren't swayed from the old junk. And so the people stopped trying to appease you elites. Where OtherOne's levels fell by the wayside, and things like Brain Salad ascended to standards, where was the goal? What was the standard? What was the point? So, PXO or not, what are you going to play now? Same thing you played every night - Abend, Halcyon, Worlds Apart, Skybox. You can't have a renaissance without new content, and that's something you've damaged beyond repair.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:35 am

The point is, each map is different in its own right. Maps that are blatant copies with small modifications are shunned. Varicose Veins would be laughed out of existence. And because of the voting system, Unreal gamers will not get hung up on a handful of maps they will play ad nauseum. The map selection changes with every round and a skilled Unreal player has to be ready to quickly adapt to any new map.

Sol, Think "Facing Worlds" (Aside, I love the map voting thing, and map rotation)

People here used to embrace new levels. Everyone rejoiced when ROX, Vander, Vertigo, you, Skyrat, Nirvana and..and..don't remember the other names (Like the guy who made Stigmata CTF), put out levels that took some effort and were well designed.

The people who used to look forward to new levels have left. They all left about the same time Why? When? Serverops woulnd't host good levels. They hosted nothing but trash for well over a year. Every server that had a good ping for the majority of the players hosted worlds apart, brain salad, abend, or skybox. Yea..way to go. A hundred good levels made, and the worst of the bunch were hosted 24/7 by uninterested, uncaring and arrogant server ops who abandoned the people who've been playing for years to host crap that only Counter-strike players would enjoy. Many awesome pilots quit that year. I stopped playing for months because of the gawdawful server selection. Sadly, the trend still continues today, I see. I'm embarrassed to show people this game, 'cause they're going to go online and see..abend?! WTF, who the ★■◆● is going to stick around to look at that? I'd have laughed my ass off if I came to D3 from UT. "You play THAT!? Why?? HAHAHAHAHAHA what losers!"

edit: Missed...

In Descent, you see an extreme reluctance to leave these "home levels" that the "pros" enjoy.

The "Pro's" played every level. and the Pro's played every level well. If a Pro didn't play a level, it was because the ping/loss was too bad to play,(For instance, a lot of the East coast coulnd't play on Gonzo's servers because of the sheer distance), or the level was grossly retarded, ie: abend.
It was the ordinary pilot, the masses, the public, that changed the face of D3 level selection. The elites were not the problem. They played everywhere and anywhere. It was the lazy, incompetent public that was attracted to the bad levels because the 5928390923 quad-packs relinquished them from the burden of aquiring the skills to play the game. Aiming and tactics don't apply in these levels, and that suits the...public...just fine, apparently.

New level development isn't all that needed, really. There are enough great levels that they could be cycled through all the servers once a week for months and months without seeing the same thing twice (per server, of course).

...........

Anyway...I've seen and played a dozen new pilots this week. Some of'em weren't half-bad, coming from other games. I tell them to go look at the other servers that are empty, and note the better level designs.

PXO can stay down, good riddance to it. I'm tired of it crashing, and tired of the seclusion it forced us into. (tho' I wish V would put the login and chat on the same machine for a bit only for new people to get a MOTD that points them to Gamesurge..

)

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:56 am

Kyouryuu, this is just another reason I'm trying to make a lot of levels and MODs. The problem is, I can't get past the 1337ist attitude. No one will play my maps; they're just too "different". I'd make more, but what's the point? Other than my direct friends (which I've basically forced into trying my levels

) no one ever plays my levels more than once. It's not because they are such awful levels, it's because they want to play with someone else. Playing with someone else would require someone else being in the server. When I'm the only other player in the server, people tend to get bored fighting me (I'm either too easy or too hard, depending on your skill level). No one wants to play one player in a level whenever he plays that level. It's a neverending circle. You don't want to play a level because there's no one in it. There's no one in it because you don't want to play the level.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:01 am

Stryker, what's 'different' about them? Are they like that super-duper 10yo mentality weapons mod level..whatever it was called? (Technically, the mods were really interesting, and I bet quite hard to make, but it was only a good idea in theory). Do you use more than one texture through the whole level? Do you use any lighting at all, or more than one color? Do you have any screenshots? I'll play any level at least once. Any level that looks like the person actually cared, I'll keep in my level list, and I will play it. (My level list is quite small)

...

Hey, One, I forgot to ask..when's the last time you played? Have you even tried to play since PXO went down, or did you just throw your arms in the air and walk off?

I've been trying to get into games more and more lately. (It's hard during the nice weather

). Now that I have a nice vid card, I go into decent levels that are empty, and just Alt-Tab out to the desktop and mess around with various things and wait for people to come in. I usually get 2-3 people to play with within the hour. Depends on time of day, etc..

Diti · Post by **Diti** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:01 am

I couldn't find better words. Thanks, Kyouryuu.

Diti

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:01 pm

Testi, this is the link to screenies of the level I just finished. The weapons mod isn't complete yet, but this level is. The mod won't have insanely different weapons; mainly just graphics upgrades and some gameplay changes (I.E. megas that can charge like the fusion cannon; leave them uncharged and they'll do about 20 damage, charge them and they are the only one-shot kill in the game). Microwave and EMD, as well as some other weapons, have been replaced completely. Normal D3ers should be able to learn what all the weapon effects are in no time. But I digress. My levels don't have the best texture jobs, but they are acceptable. The lighting is interesting, if a bit overwhelming at times. The level flows well; you shouldn't have too much trouble getting anywhere from anywhere. It has been hosted on dedicated servers (it is now being hosted on d1.descent.cx). Yet I haven't seen anyone online playing it...

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:31 pm

Kyouryuu wrote:
Suncho wrote:When jumping so quick to lay blame on the players, you might want to step back a moment and think about why players in other games (UT2K4) don't pick bad levels. If you can answer that question and tell me what the difference (besides PXO) is between us and them then I'm all ears.
There are more of them.

There are more players, more level designers, and a larger community in general.

Let me explain what this therefore leads to...

I don't care what it leads to. Tell me how they got more players and how we can get more players. If PXO is a part of this plan then explain to me how.

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:32 pm

Suncho wrote:I don't care what it leads to. Tell me how they got more players and how we can get more players. If PXO is a part of this plan then explain to me how.

I'm not some mythical sage that pretends to know the definitive solution to the problem, Suncho. I can only reflect on the reality that has already happened and glean from it what I will. If you're too arrogant and stubborn to acknowledge what I wrote, then I have nothing more to say to you.

Trackball · Post by **Trackball** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:13 am

D3 can easily survive without PXO. People are just too lazy to write down an IP and type it in. How pathetic.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:04 am

And there's even no need for it -- w/ Kquery a game is exactly two clicks away..

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:27 pm

Kyouryuu wrote:
Suncho wrote:I don't care what it leads to. Tell me how they got more players and how we can get more players. If PXO is a part of this plan then explain to me how.
I'm not some mythical sage that pretends to know the definitive solution to the problem, Suncho. I can only reflect on the reality that has already happened and glean from it what I will. If you're too arrogant and stubborn to acknowledge what I wrote, then I have nothing more to say to you.

Ok. So all you're trying to tell me is that UT has more players? I already *KNEW* that! ;)

Gonzo7 · Post by **Gonzo7** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:53 pm

You know guys this all gets down to what i have been saying for eons. Money talks and bull★■◆● walks. I am completely mystified by the fact , that this SMALL community can't get that into there minds. All these grand ideas are just that, till somebody is willing to put up more then just lips service. I am not dissin anybodies idea, but lets get real . This is going to take MONEY and TIME to get something workable.
Gonzo

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:28 pm

Why not find out how much it would cost to run PXO (tracker & chat) and then ask people top donate to keep it going? I'd be willing to help foot the cost.

[TA]One · Post by **[TA]One** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:53 pm

Too many of us, it seems, like to play the blame game. â??Hey, letâ??s say itâ??s the other guyâ??s fault that D3 never gets played.â?? You can just pick a tartget â?? server ops, level makers, players â?? and start typing about what they do wrong. We should try not to focus on things that we canâ??t change â?? the things that people have been whining about for 5 years â?? but try and focus on things we can hopefully all agree on that will help keep this game going.

Many people have a narrow mindset. Their motto is â??Iâ??m right, youâ??re wrong, I donâ??t want to hear what anyone else has to say. Iâ??ll have it my way or Iâ??m going to quit.â??

Those who give constructive criticism are far more likey to get bashed than to have anyone listen to them. The few who CAN actually give constructive critism are all too often lumped into the same group as those who are just bashing each other. The result is that the constructive criticism gets confused with all the bashing thatâ??s going on, resentments build, and no one wants to listen to anyone else.

I am not saying people should give up on trying to give constructive criticism. But we should all try to focus on what we can change, not what we canâ??t. Itâ??s too late in the game (pun intended) to worry about things that will never change.

Regarding D3 levels, Iâ??ve played levels that looked pretty but sucked as far as gameplay goes; and levels that didnâ??t look that pretty but excelled as far as gameplay goes. For me, gameplay is far more important. Unless the ligthing is really bad or the textures are giving me a headache, I donâ??t really care what a level looks like. Can D3 have a nice looking level that plays well? Sureâ?¦ Moria and Pyroglyphic are two examples of levels that I think look nice, have good flow, and manage to keep framerates high. We need more levels like these. I donâ??t mind playing old levels on occasion, but if I had the choice I would rather play new good levels than old good levels.

In my opinion, you have to be careful when you compare D3 levels to groundpounder maps. In most groundpounders, players are trudging along at a snailâ??s pace, so they can get away with prettier maps that have more detail and lower framerates. In D3, you canâ??t get away with that. The ships move too fast, and perhaps the netcode wasnâ??t written as well as it could have been. I donâ??t know. What I do know is that when you mix fast ships, so-so servers, and players whose connections/computers arenâ??t that great; and then ask them to play a level that drops their framerates down - you will have problems. Things can get skippy enough without low framerates adding more skip.

Also, because the ships move so fast â??the flowâ?

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:09 pm

[TA]One wrote:In my opinion, you have to be careful when you compare D3 levels to groundpounder maps. In most groundpounders, players are trudging along at a snailâ??s pace, so they can get away with prettier maps that have more detail and lower framerates. In D3, you canâ??t get away with that. The ships move too fast, and perhaps the netcode wasnâ??t written as well as it could have been. I donâ??t know.

I'd be hesitant to claim that Descent 3 moves any faster than an average ground pounder on sheer travel speed. There's hypothetically more bombardment since you can travel on all axes of movement, but it's hardly comparing rabbits to snails. When was the last time you ever played a first-person shooter with 16 human opponents?

[TA]One wrote:Also, because the ships move so fast â??the flowâ?

Gammaray · Post by **Gammaray** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:44 am

[TA]One wrote:
In my opinion, you have to be careful when you compare D3 levels to groundpounder maps. In most groundpounders, players are trudging along at a snailâ??s pace, so they can get away with prettier maps that have more detail and lower framerates. In D3, you canâ??t get away with that. The ships move too fast, and perhaps the netcode wasnâ??t written as well as it could have been. I donâ??t know. What I do know is that when you mix fast ships, so-so servers, and players whose connections/computers arenâ??t that great; and then ask them to play a level that drops their framerates down - you will have problems. Things can get skippy enough without low framerates adding more skip.

Amen to that! IIRC this was the reason the pyro-GT mod didn't catch on. it took enuff out of your machine to render more than 4 of them, and the level it was included with was just about right for 1-2 of them at a time.

kyouryuu wrote:I'd be hesitant to claim that Descent 3 moves any faster than an average ground pounder on sheer travel speed. There's hypothetically more bombardment since you can travel on all axes of movement, but it's hardly comparing rabbits to snails. When was the last time you ever played a first-person shooter with 16 human opponents?

actually, I have played many 32 player games ranging from counterstrike (noteably as old as D3) to UT2k4, but the model complexity is almost always uniform. With D3 you have modded ships/weapons/effects that come into play, as well as level complexity. Now take into account that certain ships have different dynamics in D3, you run into a problem. This is compounded by the control availability as you stated above.

I think we're digressing though. system demand shouldn't be an issue in a game this old vs its popularity.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:06 am

yes I do still play D3

That's what I wanted to hear!

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:56 pm

Gammaray wrote:I think we're digressing though. system demand shouldn't be an issue in a game this old vs its popularity.

You missed the point. One accused "groundpounders" of being sluggish games (in terms of gameplay pace and speed) compared to Descent.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:36 pm

[TA]One wrote:Whining about players playing levels that you donâ??t personally like will get you nowhere, and itâ??s not constructive. Do I wish those players would learn other levels that I personally like to play? Of course I doâ?¦ but I realize that it isnâ??t likely to happen, so I donâ??t whine about it. Whatâ??s the point? Let the few players who are playing these days play what they like and leave them alone. Itâ??s not their fault that enough players arenâ??t around to play the levels that you might personally enjoy more.

This brings me to server ops. Leave them alone as well. I see server ops hosting levels that I would like to play but I canâ??t, because I will sit in the server for 5 minutes or more and no one will join. And itâ??s not their fault that there isnâ??t a built-in feature that allows us to vote on and select levels from within the server.

Amen! I'd like to add that we can't blame the level designers either. If someone makes a bad level, it's not their fault that it gets played. Many levels of all different qualities don't get played. The level designers do the best they can.

[TA]One wrote: My point is that I fear things currently arenâ??t â??easy enoughâ?

Clayman · Post by **Clayman** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:11 am

Suncho, all of the debates set aside for a moment, I'm curious when you believe that D3 is going to grow at this point, or what is preventing that from taking place, and what needs to be done to get by it. I used to oppose the idea of PXO being shut down, but at this point we as a community need to do whatever we can to keep this game alive. I don't know the exact count, but I'm sure it's getting close to 2 months now that PXO has been down, and the # of people playing is not back at what it was. Is there a next step we need to take, or do we just wait and hope? I don't know how many people pay attention, but the D3TL lately has been nearly grinding to a hault, even from the slower pace it was at before. D3, both from a competitive and "fun" aspect (unlike some others, I don't consider those mutually exclusive though) is in doldrums, and I'm certainly all ears for any ideas to drum things up.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:41 am

Just because we're not quite back to where we were doesn't mean we aren't already growing.

Just sit back, relax, play as much as you want, and watch the magic baby! =D