Intel or AMD for next system upgrade?

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:44 pm

OK, this isn't an invitation for platform wars!

Currently, I am on an antique Athlon Thunderbird and ready to upgrade Motherboard, CPU and RAM.

My inital thoughts were:

Pentium 4 2.8 "C" 800 MHz FSB
Abit IS7-G motherboard
1024 MB of Corsair XMS PC3200 2-2-2-5 in two sticks of 512 MB

Was gonna push the 2.8 to about 3.3GHz and use a 5:4 divider for the FSB/RAM to stop pushing the RAM too far.

However, I'm a big AMD fan, and I'd actually quite like to support the underdog again. So perhaps a Barton 2800+ and KT800/nForce2 is a good option.

However, I'm not sure how far a Barton core will overclock - because I will DEFINITELY be overclockign whatever system I end up with.

Anyone got any excperience with a Barton core?

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mobius:
Was gonna push the 2.8 to about 3.3GHz and use a 5:4 divider for the FSB/RAM to stop pushing the RAM too far.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm, i am using my RAM with 5:4 and i have a 2.4C. You'd probably have to use something like 3:2 with the 2.8, or even 1:1.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:54 pm

Max, 3:2 is a bigger divide then 5:4...

Mobius, I'll say that I am not too impressed with the current CPU market. Sure, bartons are decent, and the P4 C chips are also good overclockers, but nothing is really all that impressive for performance unless you are willing to throw away $800-1000 USD for a FX51 or P4EE.

If I were going to get a new CPU today on a budget, I would get a Athlon 64 3000+ chip, 2.0 GHz, half the cache of the 3200+, and about half the price too, performs about the same as the 3200+ and is equal to the P4 3.2.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:53 pm

Hmmm. P4 3.0GHz "C" is the exact same price here as an Athlon 64 3000+ --- $490 retail. ACK!

I was hoping to spend somewhat less than this!

AMD Athlon XP3000+ 333FSB SocketA CPU Box with FAN & XP Sticker. Barton core --- $394.00

Intel Pentium 4 2.8GHz, 800MHz FSB, 512KB, Boxed. (with Cooler) --- $439.00

Does anyone know what the chipsets are like for the Barton?

One of the reasons I was keen on a P4 system was the 865 chipset which is now kicking a$$ and is very feature-rich and mature now.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:12 pm

I can get the Athlon 64 3000+ for $215 USD OEM, try ordering from a US place that ships internationally.

There is only one chipset that counts for the Athlon XP; the Nforce2 Ultra-400 (I have one and a T-Bred B).

-Krom

Max_T · Post by **Max_T** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Krom:
 Max, 3:2 is a bigger divide then 5:4...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doh, yeah, u r right.

R e v · Post by **R e v** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:00 pm

I put together a new gaming rig about eight months ago and I could not be happier with it's performance to date. I went with a P4 2.8 533 (the 800s were a bit too high at the time) riding on a Asus IC7-G.

-J. 'rev'

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:04 pm

I go intel but who knows in future.

1 thing that turns me off AMD is that if your cpu fan dies, you will find out to late.

Admiral LSD · Post by **Admiral LSD** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:57 am

Really, people put too much stock in that utterly ridiculous (and probably Intel funded, I wouldn't put anything past THG...) Tom's Hardware video...

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:19 am

I recently got a P4 2.8 800MHz (M0 stepping) from Newegg and an Asus P4P800-- uses the i865PE (Merry Christmas!). This is the mobo that's supposed to use memory timings similar to those with Intel's PAT in the i875 (which is $50+ more) so effectively that it outperformed many competitor's i875 motherboards. I've already put on a new northbridge fan/heatsink and am looking forward to getting my cooling tomorrow, nothing special, but should get the job done. Hopefully then I can post some overclocking results.

BTW, naturally, consequently, my dad had to zap my Ti4600 troubleshooting, so I RMA'd, sent it in, and am waiting for it back (hopefully). In the meantime I'm using this Radeon 7000, which has the worst 2d quality I've ever seen in a video card. Can't wait to leave the house.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Admiral LSD:
Really, people put too much stock in that utterly ridiculous (and probably Intel funded, I wouldn't put anything past THG...) Tom's Hardware video...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To much of the scolding of some of the older DBB members, I performed the same test on my old P4. It at one point exceeded 100'C, but it didn't stop media player from playing (although the visuals became very jerky). The P4 works fine, even to this day.

Of course, I never performed the test on an Athlon, but I've already fried one of them in my lifetime. Unsuccessfully made a keychain out of it too.

s. · Post by s. » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:13 am

I have a barton 2800+, and with ****ty value ram I can get it to 2.6 ghz. 11.5 multi fsb 227 (454). my ram is definetly holding it back
This is my first AMD experience so I was pleased.

msi kt6 delta (watercooled)
768 ram pc2700

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:58 pm

I've got a barton 2800+ on the way along with another stick of 256MB of Corsair (PC2700) to enable dual-channel mode, a decent Fortron 350W PS (120mm fan pulling air up and out of the case), and a decent vid capture card on the way from newegg. Should be here either Tuesday or Wednesday.

Aggressor Prime · Post by **Aggressor Prime** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:19 pm

I would go with the AMD processors.
When I tested my Athlon XP 2100 1.74GHz against my friend's P4 2.8GHz 800MHz FSB HT, my MegaFlops were more than double his.
This is not even when I OCed it.
When I OCed it to an Athlon XP 2400 2.1GHz, my MegaFlops were over 3* his.
I believe this is due to the huge 128KB C1 the Athlons have.
And, I spent more than 2* less on my CPU.
But if you are only crunching simple numbers, you don't need the C1 and would need the GHz more.

Aggressor Prime · Post by **Aggressor Prime** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:23 pm

Uh, the new AMD64 CPUs have better heat protection. At least according to TomsHardware. They now survive the no heatsink test.

s. · Post by s. » Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:35 pm

Oh yeah when I was putting in my water cooling I read up on the heat issue.
The newer AMD chips have a heat protection that shuts of the chip at 67c(or there abouts

). I got mine up there and it shut down. I cooled it down and it started right back up. and it still works fine.

scrode

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:36 pm

Umm....isn't he supposed to be banned? (not you s.)

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:33 pm

nope, he was never banned

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:25 pm

Get the Athlon 64. They are VERY nice and worth every penny. They will outperform P4's in anything, the P4's sorry 1 meg cache wont help. These days its very hard to reccomend a P4 unless you want to waste money. The AMD 64's have improved greatly on heat dissipation with their auto-shutoff and all (not to mention the re-introduction of the heat spreader on the die). Plus their stock heatsinks are nice a quiet. I anticipated a noisy fan but they are well made and quiet, no need to splurge 40 bucks on something that already works well.

Its also natural in the evolution in computing that 64 bit is the future, and yes it does help, even in 32 bit applications.

So yea the P4 is behind on allot of things. The P4 is dead.

Mr. Perfect · Post by **Mr. Perfect** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:06 pm

2.4GHz P4c farm > 2000+ farm.

The current batch isn't that easily sorted through. I'd wait for the beefier FXs and Prescott before even considering a new machine.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:22 pm

Like I said, for price/performance without overclocking and still staying modern, pretty much nothing can top the Athlon 64 3000+.

-Krom

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xciter:
 The Bartons overclock well... but a lot of them are coming multiplier locked now and aren't moddable all that easily.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

there is a devivce out, i read this somewere but have forgotten were it is.

it fits under your CPU and has DIP switches to "Unlock" a AMD Barton CPU. it can be switched on or off ( when off it just passes the current, signals, and data through it with no mod )
when On it utilizes bridges between certain pins to Unlock the CPU and give you full access to the speed

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:40 pm

The P4 is dead.

Yes and no. The Pentium 4 line will be coming to an end, yes, but most Socket 478 mobo's will be Prescott compatible, and you can confirm whether or not this will be true with your mobo manufacturer before you purchase it. Of course, with a high end Pentium 4 system, a Prescott upgrade probably wouldn't make much sense, and Prescott is (like anything) supposed to switch sockets too at some point, probably before it does become a reasonable upgrade, but that's just my speculation.

Besides, with the exception of the Socket-7 days, I've always had to buy a new motherboard with a processor upgrade. It's probably just a good idea anyways.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:57 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see 64-bit computing just take a long while to be adopted, at least in its current form.

No real need for 64-bits chips, unless you really need lots of memory, and 64-bit wide Integers.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:42 pm

Moby, here are my overclocking results as I promised:

The voltage is a little high, but it's at the lowest that I could get her to stablize @ 3.6.

It's a good niche for me, since the CPU probably won't go much higher (don't care to raise the voltage more to find out), and my RAM is running at just over 400, 411, at the divider it's on. I hope it proves to be completely stable at these speeds, although I'm not sure how good of an idea those voltages really are (supposed to be at 1.525, comments anyone?). If it doesn't, 3.5 (14*250) should be rock stable.

Here's my temperatures and fans:

http://home.comcast.net/~jeff250/m0probe2.png

The CPU seems a bit low, so to establish a comparison, both the CPU and chipset were about 27'C before I overclocked, and the CPU was about 41'C before overclock with the Intel stock heatsink/fan. Regardless, I'm really impressed with this Vantec socket 478 cooler. It's louder, but not by much either. BTW, for my chipset cooling solution, I just ordered some new chipset fan by Abit from excaliberpc.com (seems to be down right now

) for $5, and of course peeled off the Abit sticker upon receiving it!

Here's the Vantec link:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDe ... 008&depa=1

I don't think I have anything else to say, except come back my Geforce4!

Mr. Perfect · Post by **Mr. Perfect** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:12 pm

Prescott will be named P4 so there won't be a P5 to overshadow the P4EE.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AceCombat:
 there is a devivce out, i read this somewere but have forgotten were it is.

it fits under your CPU and has DIP switches to "Unlock" a AMD Barton CPU. it can be switched on or off ( when off it just passes the current, signals, and data through it with no mod )
when On it utilizes bridges between certain pins to Unlock the CPU and give you full access to the speed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That, and there is also an Epox board (I forgot which one it is...I'm sure Admiral LSD will probably refresh my memory promptly) that unlocks the chip via the BIOS.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:15 pm

I'm going to try and make this box as silent as I can. I'll be usign Vantech Stealth fans at a reduced voltage, and YS-Tech TMD fans for GPU and CPU cooling.

I doubt whether I care about getting beyond 3GHz or so. 3.2 would suit me fine - and that's only a mild overclock.

Vindicator · Post by **Vindicator** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:18 pm

I dunno about those TMD fans, I have the AMD version of the Vantec heatsink Jeff has and its really noisy (using watercooling will forever change what you think is a quiet computer

). I'm hoping it'll smooth out when I actually install it in a few days, but initial tests arent encouraging.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:45 am

That Athlon FX system that had a compressor cooler on it and was running at 2.8 GHz could run pretty impressive. Just imagine a simillar cooler on dual opterons at that speed, defenately enough to give dual xeons a serious run for their money.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 10:51 pm

In any case, both the 2.8 P4 and the athlon 64 chips have proven to be quite respectible for performance.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:35 pm

I would be VERY keen on an AMD 64 chip - very keen INDEED - but the problem is this: although I am an AMD fan, and I always root for the underdog, I'm not prepared to "invest" in technology which doesn't yet work. The premium paid for a 64-bit core, coupled with the lack of a (Windows!) OS for it and a total lack of applications for 64-bit is why I'm going to steer clear - for now.

The P4 2.8 "C" is what I'm going to get. It's reasonably priced, and coupled with an ABit IS7-G motherboard and 2 x 512MB Corsair XMS PC3200, it should see me through until 2006, when I'll upgrade to a 6GHz somethingorother with 8GB of RAM.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:53 pm

Mobius, I just got my XP2800 yesterday and I have to say....it ****ing kicks ASS! See this pic? That took about 2 and a half minutes to render with my old duron 700 with 256MB PC2700 DDR in 3dsmax5. It took 14 seconds to render on my 2.08GHz XP.

(I also doubled the RAM to enable dual-channel mode) Maybe its just the shock of going from 700MHz to just over 2GHz, but this chip has seriously impressed this material defender.

Honest Bob · Post by **Honest Bob** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MD-2389:
Mobius, I just got my XP2800 yesterday and I have to say....it ****ing kicks ASS! See this pic? That took about 2 and a half minutes to render with my old duron 700 with 256MB PC2700 DDR in 3dsmax5. It took 14 seconds to render on my 2.08GHz XP.

(I also doubled the RAM to enable dual-channel mode) Maybe its just the shock of going from 700MHz to just over 2GHz, but this chip has seriously impressed this material defender.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know exactly how you feel. Tbird 950 to a 2700+. The 950 on the Asus A7V VS the 2700+ on dual channel ram is amazing. However, slap the 950 in the new dual channel DDR board makes the comparison much closer.

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:55 pm

try any of that stuff with a P4 3.0 "C" and 1GB of PC4000 DDR, everyone would practically piss their pants

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Honest Bob:
I know exactly how you feel. Tbird 950 to a 2700+. The 950 on the Asus A7V VS the 2700+ on dual channel ram is amazing. However, slap the 950 in the new dual channel DDR board makes the comparison much closer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

Compare:

Duron 700

144.24 Descent3 v1.4
36 Min
215 Max

24 sec

XP2800+
237.03 Descent3 v1.4
228 Min
428 Max

11 seconds

1024x768 using OpenGL with detail maxed out. No anistropic, No FSAA. I could probably tweak it further if I really cared, but I'm not really that serious about gaming anymore. With my new capture card, I'm going to put old family home videos on DVD as well as other things I've been meaning to do. Thats how I justified spending close to $300 for finishing this upgrade. Now my only problem is buying enough DVD-R disks and figuring out how to do the menus.

Mobius, whichever way you decide to go, you'll be very pleased.

Darktalyn1 · Post by **Darktalyn1** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sit behind the KB on my dual 3.82 Ghz Xeon's if you want to see a fast box.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good god how much did that run you?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:08 pm

I could easly get your system into the 350+ FPS range MD.