Protest Warrior

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:40 pm

Check out this highschool kid's encounter with the politically incorrect and mindless left:
linkage

He's pretty cool under fire.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:55 pm

Fricken awesome... a year ago I got as far as two PW posters before the administration started getting on my case... I didn't have enough student backing to press the issue and being a Jesuit institution the theology department is so far to the left it's not funny.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:58 pm

Wow. That kid has balls. I wish I could be that cool under pressure. If I had been in that situation, I think I would have gone a little crazy

.

bash · Post by **bash** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:34 pm

It seems to me the true counterculture is becoming conservative. Some kids are not buckling under to PC peer pressure, they're challenging their teachers and fearlessly standing up for themselves and not being mindless America apologists. At least some non-conformist kids have figured out 2004 isn't 1968. Does my heart good.

Here's another link to an 11-year-old's website who's sick of being spoonfed leftist dogma:

http://www.republicanvoices.org

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:41 pm

Dang, you don't think we'll have a conservative Haight-Ashbury anytime soon, do you?

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:44 pm

Cudos to him. While I disagree harshly with the message of those signs it is his God Given right to express his opinion, no matter how unpopular it may be.

Political correctness and institutional brainwashing be damned. Opposing viewpoints need to be allowed to be expressed so that maybe one day we can actually iron some differences out instead of keeping them hidden with political correctness.

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:13 pm

It seems to me the true counterculture is becoming conservative.

I was thinking the same thing. It's strange and funny that conservatism is often the voice of dissent in today's climate, and the pc touchy-feely patrol in all its legalistic, victim-state glory has in many ways become "the man".

Cheers to Bryan Henderson for not being browbeat by the monopoly.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:44 pm

Funny, I would have thought this thread was supposed to celebrate a victory for what free speech really is, the right to express ones opinion as he sees it regardless of whatever kinds of opressive pressures are presented to the dissenter.

Instead I see this quickly becoming a conservative party pow wow, declaring this a victory because a student has made up his mind through thought and reason that he agrees with a conservative viewpoint. There are many students who arrive at a liberal viewpoint through the same means. And on top of that, there are countless more people in all parts of the political spectrum who have been "brainwashed" into blindly believing both the right and left message.

I wonder, would you have the same exuberence if it were a leftist dissenting and fighting for his free speech rights in a predominantly right wing environment?

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:09 pm

that link was great! (i would be labeled a "leftist")

wtf was wrong with those people? they didn't know their political nose from their asses, and got owned by the kid who did.

this brings up an interesting question that i have rarely considered before: "are leftists becomming less and less informed?".

it wouldn't surprise me. perhaps they get the impression that their ideas are SO offcenter to everyone else's, and getting their ideas put into government is a hopeless uphill battle, and they receive so much scorn and namecalling from the right, that they feel ... alienated.

as a result, (it seems to them, and) they think that the right doesn't even understand the left's most BASIC views and ideals. so leftists concentrate on spouting "the leftist BASICS", and won't go onto more complex topics until they feel that the other side understands "the left basics".

so perhaps, because of the feelings of alienation, leftists are relatively unstimulated by more left vs right debate, because they don't feel that the right has any clue as to the basic left's ideals, so why bother debating more complex subjects if even the BASICS can't be understood.

eg: i used to read a lot of counterculture material, that would be considered LEFTIST, it was very overwhelming but i stuck at it thinking it could change the world (hey it was new to me). but after a while of discussing it with my RIGHTIST friends, i got sick of the discussion, because most of the guys i was talking to didn't have a clue. and i probabaly likewise associated "not having a clue" with "rightist". so i figured why should i bother continuing to research all of this, it's an impossible battle to even get these guys to understand the basics. i'll just be giving myself more and more worries.

interesting, very interesting. this will have me thinking for some time.

do you think i should start a new topic on this titled: "is the general left getting less and less informed because in left vs right debate they feel (perhaps wrongly) they can't get the right to understand even their basic arguments?".

ps: you guys are nasty, i don't like debating with the nasty.
edit: oh, vader seemed to sum up my last point, so i crossed it out. if this thread DOES continue to be a typical DBB politics mudthrowing match, i'll start up my new thread. if not sooner

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:36 pm

roid wrote:this brings up an interesting question that i have rarely considered before: "are leftists becomming less and less informed?".

Roid, highschools aren't exactly known for their high standards of political discourse.

To expect anything other than what this guy had experienced would be almost laughable.

roid · Post by **roid** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:15 am

Will, in your title post, it seems to be implying that the ENTIRE left is politically incorrect and mindless.

is this what you mean? coz... that's just trolling.
edit it out before a flamewar erupts.

bash · Post by **bash** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:50 am

edit it out before a flamewar erupts.

Heh. Roid, I don't think you understand just how well you've brought the subtext of Will's post to the forefront.

roid · Post by **roid** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:05 am

i like to assume the best of people bash.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:09 am

Rise of the conservative stoners!

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:15 am

"politically incorrect" was a refrence to those in authority who wanted him to stop because they thought he had no right to speak if his speech was offensive to someone...anyone...

"mindless left" was a refrence to those who tried to claim he was wrong on substance but had no substance to back up their claim so rather than re-think their position they moved on to other equally unsubstantiated arguments.

It's nice to see someone at that age stand up against the mob mindset and defend his position with confidence.

Regarding the new counter culture being a conservative faction, I'm almost a little worried that the pendulum has started swinging back the other way and the new puritans are on their way.
The mindless left gaining power has been harmful to our lives in many ways but a mindless right has proven to be catastrophic on a world scale.

I sure hope they seek balance on their way up not just victory.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:24 am

Will Robinson wrote: It's nice to see someone at that age stand up against the mob mindset and defend his position with confidence.

That's what we do on the board here Will and you call us all Anti-American or Frenchie leftists or some other stupid name

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:27 am

and btw, every school you go into today has posters up that they approve of. It's not about freedom of speech or anything else, it has to be approved by the dean or whatever. it was the way at my high school, if they didnt like what you wanted up for whatever reason, that's it. it's not an infringement of freedom of speech, it's school property and they can do what they like. they wouldnt let me put up a poster announcing a party, damn conservative family people.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:32 am

Sorry, Zuruck, but public school are public, taxpayer-funded forums, and as much as you might not like it, conservative posters don't constitute degenerate morals unbecoming of high school students.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:55 am

i think you missed my point. The school board can choose whatever they want. It can be the nicest thing in the world on it and they have the say so if it gets put up or not. You can't just walk down the hallway and start putting up posters. It all has to be approved ahead of time. It was like that at my high school.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:07 am

And mine.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:19 am

I think you're missing the point of Tinker v. Des Moines, which states that passive expressions of free speech cannot be prohibited by any public institution.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:29 am

Good link DCrazy, but I'm sure if you checked your school charter, just like everyone else, there will be some rules that you have to follow. Now I agree, I find it proposterous to leave your rights at the door, I don't think you should have to. But remember, you can't exactly say what you want and get away with it. You will get into trouble if you start cussing up a storm and talking about sodomy. I didn't say I disagreed with the kid putting up posters, I merely stated that the school is on par with what everyone else does.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:35 am

The difference between "cussing up a storm and talking about sodomy" and posting conservative-leaning flyers is that the first is immature, provocative, and makes reference to an act that is illegal in some states. Even then, the ACLU would come running to a student's defense if he were punished for taking about sodomy, especially if it were mentioned in the context of homosexuality. Note that the decision was made in the case of students wearing black wristbands to promote their more liberal position of peace.

My school is completely privately funded, so I have no standing when it comes to free speech. But in any school that receives state or federal funding, free speech may not be curtailed, no matter what the school's charter says. Also, interestingly, parochial schools that receive state money (i.e. 99% of them) may not discriminate on basis of religion.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:14 am

I applaud that kid and his fight for the right to say what he wants. I think everyone, liberal or conservative, should be able to say what they want, where they want. On a side note, this type of thing is why I'm homeschooled. I can say whatever I want, whenever I want, and I can form my own opinions without being indoctrinated into a particular mindset. However, that's another topic.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:51 am

so you instead choose to be indoctrinated by your parents?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:59 am

Vertigo 99 wrote:so you instead choose to be indoctrinated by your parents?

More likely he takes an opposite position from his parents so he can better see both viewpoints.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:05 pm

['Twas a joke.]

Drakona · Post by **Drakona** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:34 pm

Oh man, that's cool! I sure admire that guy--I don't think I could behave that well.

I wish I'd had protestwarrior when I was his age... I had a sociology teacher my sophomore year in college who was a bit of a left wing nut. I remember for my final project, I was supposed to give a talk about affirmative action--and feeling provokative, I showed a video about how it affects white men, and talked about it negatively. And he cut off my video in the middle, stopped my presentation short, and spent the rest of class ranting about racism!

Being only sixteen, I was a little too inexperienced to react well--I mostly just got mad and talked to him after class. I didn't have very developed political views--I didn't even realize that it was a right and left thing, or that I was having my political expression limited. Reading about this guy sure reminds me of that experience, though, and It inspires me to see someone handle themselves so well. I wish I'd had protestwarrior, and I really wish I had had the courage that guy did. That's... really cool.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:10 pm

wait in college sophmore year you were 16?

*gives suspicious look*

you're one of those... smart people, aren't you?

We don't like your kind around here.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:29 pm

The people who were arguing gainst him weren't all that bright. Racism? The only barely credible argument for that would be the muslim woman one, and that's just because of the image.

I could take his signs, make a few minor changes, and apply it to a number of Asian, African, and Arab countries, and it would make about as much sense. I could even make them apply to the USA. Let's go to war!

It's interesting to see how everyone has been so easily distracted from how screwed they are at home. We can hardly care for our own country, our politicians have committed more (albiet white collar, but some no less deadly) crimes than Saddam, and (generally) care about the public about the same amount as he did. Doesn't seem like anyone cares. Let's free a bunch of people 10,000 miles away! Why don't we go 15,000 miles and free China?

If he wants to protest something, there're plenty of things in this country that could use the same attention.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:59 pm

Zuruck wrote:That's what we do on the board here Will and you call us all Anti-American or Frenchie leftists or some other stupid name

No, I think that kid backs up his arguments quite well and you usually don't. You do drive-by's, you parrot the complaint of the day and then disappear from the debate.

If you ever backed up your stuff like he did I'd give you props whether I agreed with you or not...

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:45 pm

Funny, I would have thought this thread was supposed to celebrate a victory for what free speech really is, the right to express ones opinion as he sees it regardless of whatever kinds of opressive pressures are presented to the dissenter.

So everyone shut up and follow my way of thinking, dammit. Heh. Classic.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:17 pm

index_html wrote:So everyone shut up and follow my way of thinking, dammit. Heh. Classic.

That comment you quoted was in reponse to your post:

Index_html wrote:I was thinking the same thing. It's strange and funny that conservatism is often the voice of dissent in today's climate, and the pc touchy-feely patrol in all its legalistic, victim-state glory has in many ways become "the man".

Cheers to Bryan Henderson for not being browbeat by the monopoly.

Which looks at this incident as a conservative victory, which it isnt nessecarily. What it IS, however, is a victory for free speech in general, regardless of the message being given. The kid was being opressed by his school, and he went First-Ammendment on their asses and made them really think about things.

I hope he wins on his appeal. He damn well better win on his appeal. Not because hes speaking from a conservative standpoint, but because he is SPEAKING period.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:43 pm

Will Robinson wrote:
Zuruck wrote:That's what we do on the board here Will and you call us all Anti-American or Frenchie leftists or some other stupid name :)
If you ever backed up your stuff like he did I'd give you props whether I agreed with you or not...

As was said a while back in the "E&C is boring because it's too dominated by the right" thread: Vander does his homework and backs his positions up, so he doesn't have trouble hanging. He gets his props.

You, however, specialize in what Will calls drive-by's and I call sniping. You never engage your position head-on vs others; you simply take long shots at other positions and then hint at the existance of an opposing one without ever actually presenting it. You try to pick off little pieces of other views from the edges without ever really being in the fray. You get no props for that.

Pay attention to the way Drak argues -- not only does she take on opposing positions head-on and deal with even their strongest points, but she puts her own position out there to be criticized, and she constructs a better position when all is said and done. Notice how many people totally disagree with her but still give her props. I seriously doubt her strong Christian worldview is any more widespread or popular here than strong liberal views -- she gets her props not because the view is popular, but because she presents it thoughtfully and engages criticisms. Others do the same thing (with varying degrees of eloquence, clarity, etc.) and they get props too. Goob is another great example -- he makes an effort to explain himself and he makes an effort to answer questions (more than once if it wasn't clear the first time) and he engages criticisms of his views, and he gets his props.

One of the things I really like about the kid in this link is that he stood up and challenged prevailing opinion and explained his own position, and he backed himself up. It's more than just standing up and saying what he believes that makes me respect him -- it's standing up for what he believes, and being willing to research and listen and give intelligent responses to challenges.

I have no qualms with disrespecting someone who stands up and puts forth an opinion without being willing to back it up and without doing the research and putting the necessary thought in to really understand -- even if I agree with their opinion. Recall, for example, the treatment Meathead got in his evolution thread a few months ago -- I agree with (some of) his basic conclusions, but I had no reason to respect him because he didn't back them up with well-reasoned arguments or demonstrate he'd thought about them at all. But, like I said about guys like Goob and Vander, I totally disagree with them on a lot of issues, but I respect them because they back their positions up.

So yeah... back your position up with reason and thoughtfulness, and you'll get your props no matter how unpopular the position is.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:49 pm

Back when I was in high school we outlined words with gasoline on the school lawn, then flicked our Bics. It was kinda hard to remove our posters

'Course back then I was just a hoodlum...now I'm more refined.

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:40 pm

Lothar: w0rd.

That kid has courage. I wish I had courage as big as his, damn!

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:48 pm

What it IS, however, is a victory for free speech in general, regardless of the message being given.

Well, that's fine. It can be entirely about principle for you. But I think it's the content that sets the story apart. I don't think there'd be much of a story if he put up "No Blood for Oil" posters, which, let's face it, is the type of slogan you'd expect on a typical school campus.

I don't remember much political activism when I was in high school, but it was daily fare when I was in college, and I can't recall passing by a single organized event that wasn't coming from the left side of the fence (and man, some of them were psychos, but that's another story). So, the story strikes me as unusual given 1) the message, 2) the environment, and 3) the kid's determination. I see an amusing irony in it is all. I didn't mean to "pow-wow" on your parade.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:51 pm

I love it when people are balanced like this.

Also, if anyone remembers what high school was really like you'll realize that it's not exactly a good environment for anything other than cliques. most of the kids are dumb as a rock and the teachers aren't much smarter.

Finally another vice principal fearing for my safety escorted me away to the office. I was told we would meet again on Monday, and that since I didn't have anymore classes that day, for my own safety I should go on home and not talk to anyone else.

Case in point.

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:15 am

i'd really like to go share a drink with this kid in a few years when he's 18.

oh wait, in USA it's 21... rrrr....rrrrr...RRRRRAAAAA

GRAAAAAGH I HATE AMERICA!!.

hah jkjk

i really would like to share a drink with him. when people act like that and make me not want to kill them, it's a real turn on.

feel the love in this thread... mmmmm. someone come here and get a hug ^_^

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:50 am

I dont like the posts that are pages and pages long. All that mindless banter doesnt interest me. Besides, the only time I have to type on the computer is at work, and I have to watch my shoulder and type at the same time. What's the difference in backing up information? Every site I go to is liberal and every site you go to is conservative. Doesn't make much sense to really delve into a topic because it holds no value. Not the biggest deal in the world now is it. what it gods name am i talking about...im trying that stream of consciousness thought pattern. doesnt work that well. yankees won 7-1 last night.