OK, it's starting to drive me NUTS. Call me a pedant - but the word "that" is the most pointless and stupid would in English.
99% of the time it can simply be removed from a sentence - and the only thing removing it does is make the sentence clearer and easier to read.
On the rare ocassion "that" can't simply be removed, replace it with the word "which". I think you'll find you NEVER - EVER have to use the word again.
What's brought this on? Reading an interview with some es MSFT exec who likes the sound of his own voice and use THAT about every 4th word. Talk about psychodribble!
That is a brilliant observation. I'd like to add that I find your response witty, which is something that impresses me. It's not that I'm not witty myself -- just that I appreciate when someone makes a brilliant and witty post such as that one that you just wrote.
THIS is a brilliant observation. I'd like to add, I find your response witty, which impresses me. It's not because I'm not witty myself -- I just appreciate it when someone makes a brilliant and witty post such as the one you just wrote.
Sorry Mobius, edited to make it grammatically correct:
This is a brilliant observation. I'd like to add: I find your response witty, which impresses me. It's not because I'm not witty myself -- I just appreciate when someone makes a brilliant and witty post such as the one which you just wrote.
I'd like to add that that post is comletely irrelevant; I knew by the time that I clicked the "submit" button that I had had my fun and that the short, unwitty posts would begin in order that Mobius become mad.
Just for future reference, Mobius, words such as "that" and "which" serve a purpose. Removing them colloquializes the sentence and therefore makes its grammar improper. Recursively remove prepositional phrases if you don't believe me; odds are you'll wind up with two conjugated verbs without a conjunction linking the two. Now if you were going off on people who (or that ) use "their" when they mean to use "his or her", I would empathize.
Drazy - that word does indeed have a place. That place however, is not every 5th word that people say. That people insist on saying that all the time - well, that's pathetic - and designed (I'm sure) to obfuscate the meaning of the sentence - whatever that might be.
Your insistence that removing that is faulty - that in itself is a vindication of my own hypothesis: that that is completely useless! Not only that, but the way people use that is counfounding and stupid.
Only fools use "that" all the time. True, the possessive form has a use - and that use is acceptable in certain circumstances - but mostly that is just stupidness and laziness.
My editor buddy - who co-edits a daily newspaper and a weekly magazine, simply removes "that" in 99% of cases. His summation that removing that is completely acceptable and improves the meaning and comprehendability of sentences is 100% true - and quoting from your 11th Grade English text book won't change that.
So I guess the Elements of Style is worthless? I do this shiat for fun. Sure removing "that" makes the paragraph a bit freer-flowing, but look at what happens to the syntax of a sentence without the word:
Original sentence:
Mobius wrote:I just appreciate it when someone makes a brilliant and witty post such as the one you just wrote.
Now, let's remove the prepositional phrase "such as the one", because that's what we can do with prepositional phrases.
I just appreciate it when someone makes a brilliant and witty post you just wrote.
Notice that the "you just wrote" doesn't get removed... there's nothing linking it to "the one". And never mind the fact that the "when someone makes a brilliant and witty post" should have been replaced by the word it (actually, it would be better if "it" weren't in the sentence at all).
DCrazy wrote: Now if you were going off on people who (or that ) use "their" when they mean to use "his or her", I would empathize.
I wouldn't. The fact that there isn't a singular gender neutral possessive adjective means that you either have to pick a gender (and be chastised in the business world for being sexist), use "his or her" (which just sounds horrible to me), or use "their". I pick the latter because I think it flows better.
Edit: I also use "they" in the soft singular, although usually in the form "they'll". I.e. "They'll have to do something" when I'm talking about some generic person or group of people. The distinction between singular and plural just doesn't make a difference to what the sentence is trying to say, so I don't worry about it.
How could you ask what something is if you couldn't touch it directly? We lack any other word besides "that" to refer to things distant from us. Sure you can get around it, but you sound like a retard. For example:
"What is that over there?"
or
"What is the object I spy in the distance?"
"What is this I see?"
Now then, did you form this opinion before or after you had a chat with your editor buddy?
DCrazy wrote:Notice that the "you just wrote" doesn't get removed... there's nothing linking it to "the one". And never mind the fact that the "when someone makes a brilliant and witty post" should have been replaced by the word it (actually, it would be better if "it" weren't in the sentence at all).
DC, I seem to remember something called an "understood that," where "that" could be removed from before a dependent clause and all would be grand.
Still, Mobius, even if the above idea is not the result of some corrupt schooling system, since this seems to be an ideological war you're fighting, you can remove "that," but the principle of "that" is nonetheless preserved.
DCrazy wrote:Now if you were going off on people who (or that ) use "their" when they mean to use "his or her", I would empathize.
Their and they're, your and you're, its and it's - those are all valid things to go off on people about, they are clearly either proper or improper, none of this grey area stuff.
First flash, now this. I'm starting to think Mobious has hit the level of "UberAnalness" that men and women throughout history have been trying to reach.
Admiral Thrawn wrote:First flash, now this. I'm starting to think Mobious has hit the level of "UberAnalness" that men and women throughout history have been trying to reach.
Nah, he's got a few more levels to go until he hits Derek Smart level.
Lothar wrote:That is a brilliant observation. I'd like to add that I find your response witty, which is something that impresses me. It's not that I'm not witty myself -- just that I appreciate when someone makes a brilliant and witty post such as that one that you just wrote.
