Having Fun In Subway Dancer

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:50 pm

I would have played SD more, and I might be playing it now if there weren't those half-nude pics. If my parents saw me playing a level that had those pics in it I would be banned from D3. I like the level design; the weapons are a big overpowered, but there's room for some good fights in the dogfight area (without the mods, that is).

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:40 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote:Can this community really afford to lose an active level designer?

Why not?

They lost everyone else.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:49 pm

pipsqueak10 wrote:Suncho, perhaps you can post a link to some of your levels. You seem to be an expert. I'm currently working on a level and can use some of your expert advice on level flow, custom obs, size of tunnels, etc. Mod, feel free to move this to Descent Development if you feel it is appropriate.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I am a professional. I get paid to do this kind of stuff.

I've worked on the following games so far:
Alter Echo (Assistant Lead Tester)
SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom (Lead Tester)

The only levels I've actually released for D3 are:
Core Classic (The Core with the weapons from the demo)
Mac Attack (A version of Pyroglyphic with different textures)

I've also released the following MODs:
Incognito (Vlider's original concept)
Descentrix

...and I've helped numerous people in testing their levels.

If you need help with your level catch me in chat some time or send it to me and I can give you feedback.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:59 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote:Thank you for your response Suncho. At least now I know where you're coming from. It may surprise you to note that I actually agree with a couple of points (more or less).
Suncho wrote:1. Remove all the custom weapons.....
Already available: No Mod Subway Dancer

Yep. I know. Nobody plays it. The reason the original Subway Dancer gets played is because of the modded weapons. Take that away and it loses whatever appeal it had.

{OSS}Paedric wrote:
3. Less corners and sharp edges, and 90 degree angles. They're ugly.
My main experience is with the Boston "T". Nothing pretty there. I think he captured it pretty well.

Well I also live in Boston. I'm not asking for it to be pretty... in the literal sense of the word. I just think it would be cool if it could capture a mood. With all the perfect angles, it seems relatively neat... and it looks nothing like the T.

{OSS}Paedric wrote:
5. The tunnels are too small. There's no room to do anything except run and chase. ...
Subway tunnels are usually only large enough to accept the train, and then only just. There are areas for dogfighting.

It's all about scale. Who's to say how the size of a pyro compares to the size of a subway car? Have you ever played level 4 of the singleplayer? Those are ample-sized tunnels and they don't seem unrealistic.

{OSS}Paedric wrote:
6. Less clutter. ...
Some of that "clutter" is actually very nice. It adds atmosphere to the level. Makes it feel more like a subway station.

Why would there be a covered waiting area in a subway station? Is it going to rain? Generally I see posters plastered on the walls or on pillars... not little nubs that stick up from the floor specifically for posters. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like a subway station to me.

As for clutter adding atmosphere. That's all well and good. But take the collision models off of it. Look Damage. That level has light posts coming down from the ceiling but you can fly and shoot through them because people would get stuck on them if you couldn't.

{OSS}Paedric wrote:
7. After you've done all this stuff, show it to me again...
Now that sounds a bit presumptuous. And after a couple of very lucid posts too.

Of course he doesn't have to show it to me. But he didn't show it to me the first time either and look what happened.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:03 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote: As far as the ties go, just because you don't see them, doesn't mean that they aren't there. This might depend on the age or location of the subway line in question.

Whether they're there or not, if you can't see them in real life, you probably shouldn't be able to see them in a simulation of real life. I'm not one to promote realism for realism's sake, but the ties are ugly as well as unrealistic, so why have them?

{OSS}Paedric wrote:Would you elucidate on "spaz-type flow"?

I think there's another thread about this going right now. Basically he was one of the first level designers to create levels without deadends that had multiple loops going back in on themselves. Any level where you can essentially fly the entire thing in a circle has spaz-type flow.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:41 pm

Suncho wrote:Whether they're there or not, if you can't see them in real life, you probably shouldn't be able to see them in a simulation of real life. I'm not one to promote realism for realism's sake, but the ties are ugly as well as unrealistic, so why have them?

Okay, not to pick nits, but where exactly are you seeing railroad ties? I was actually looking for them as I was dying tonight. Didn't see one section with ties. I just flew the whole level in solo and was unable to spot one tie. Are you thinking of another level perhaps?

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:21 pm

Stryker wrote:I would have played SD more, and I might be playing it now if there weren't those half-nude pics. If my parents saw me playing a level that had those pics in it I would be banned from D3. I like the level design; the weapons are a big overpowered, but there's room for some good fights in the dogfight area (without the mods, that is).

What half nude pics? Where? Are you talking about the Duke Nukem movie poster billboards? They have bikinis on. Nothing you can't see in "Dukes of Hazard" or "Beach Blanket Bingo".

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:49 am

Hello Bettina, I'm the Pete (just plain "Hunter") your looking for. I see your a fan of my stuff... And one of many at that, which always surprises me since I never did anything amazing. But you'd be interested to know I'm working on a third installement in Hyperspace and hope to see it done within the next month, but I guess the main focus will be on Assault, now that I've improved the AI/Weapons

Oh and Martin, hi there, long time no see

Neo · Post by **Neo** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:33 am

Paedric, I never said that a huge influx of players would come when people stop playing Subway Dancer. I'm saying that having only Subway Dancer games being played and other n00by levels just makes it worse (and gay).

Thirty-five players in the mines, huh? Well, that's no more than there were on PXO.

By the way, Atan, saying a level sucks is not flaming. ThunderBunny didn't say "Atan is a rancid piece of shhh!" He just said that Subway Dancer is.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:05 pm

Neo wrote:Paedric, I never said that a huge influx of players would come when people stop playing Subway Dancer. I'm saying that having only Subway Dancer games being played and other n00by levels just makes it worse (and gay).

Thirty-five players in the mines, huh? Well, that's no more than there were on PXO.

By the way, Atan, saying a level sucks is not flaming. ThunderBunny didn't say "Atan is a rancid piece of shhh!" He just said that Subway Dancer is.

People play what they like. No one is forcing anyone to play a specific level. Get over it.

Regarding PXO: Games were easier to start and join. No need to leave the game, search for an IP, reenter the game, type in the IP and hope that you have a decent ping. You where able to see the ping for a particular server. Didn't see a game you liked? Start your own.

The number of players has to do with the age and commercial success (or lack there of) of the game, not the frontend used to access it.

Regarding bashing levels: There really is no line between the self and the product of many hours of labor required to create a level. It becomes a part of you and a reflection of who you are. By bashing the level, you are, in effect, bashing the author. Maybe you wouldn't take it that way, but I've seen too many forum meltdowns and flame wars (other games) to believe that this is other truth.

Think before you hit the submit button. There is no reason to be rude, crude, or hurtfull in your statements regarding any particular level or author. Is this how you would like to be treated?

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:50 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote:
Suncho wrote:Whether they're there or not, if you can't see them in real life, you probably shouldn't be able to see them in a simulation of real life. I'm not one to promote realism for realism's sake, but the ties are ugly as well as unrealistic, so why have them?
Okay, not to pick nits, but where exactly are you seeing railroad ties? I was actually looking for them as I was dying tonight. Didn't see one section with ties. I just flew the whole level in solo and was unable to spot one tie. Are you thinking of another level perhaps?

Wow you're right! I'm retarded! But... umm... they would be ugly if they were in there... so uh don't put them in. Hehe. =)

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:59 pm

{OSS}Paedric wrote:Regarding PXO: Games were easier to start and join. No need to leave the game, search for an IP, reenter the game, type in the IP and hope that you have a decent ping. You where able to see the ping for a particular server. Didn't see a game you liked? Start your own.

Whoa there! Hold up a minute! Where are you getting this from? Why do you have to search for ips and type them in? Why can't you see your ping? Why can't you start your own game? How was it easier to join games when PXO was up? Isn't it the other way around?

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:37 pm

Also, I do not go out looking for bikini pictures like some of us seem to do. In fact, the idea is, in and of itself, abhorrent to me. Learn to face the fact that not everyone is like you.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:57 pm

Stryker wrote:Also, I do not go out looking for bikini pictures like some of us seem to do...

Peace Stryker, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. It wasn't a personal attack. I appologize if it was taken as such. My only intent was to clarify the statement.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:16 pm

Thanks. I might have misconstrued it. At any rate, I might play SD if someone would remove those pics from the walls and change the weapon damage (I.E. cut it in half). The level itself, though not the most graphically pleasing, flows well, and the modded weps have cool effects and sounds.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:34 pm

Suncho wrote:Whoa there! Hold up a minute! Where are you getting this from? Why do you have to search for ips and type them in? Why can't you see your ping? Why can't you start your own game? How was it easier to join games when PXO was up? Isn't it the other way around?

(We've gotten seriously off topic)

Let's assume that I not using a 3rd party application to do what Descent 3 did natively through PXO. So, I go to one of the tracker websites, get the IP, enter the game, go to "direct TCP/IP", manually type in the IP (assumes that you haven't played this level last game), search for games at that address (only at this point are you able to ascertain the relative server ping), select, and enter the game.

From within PXO, if a game ended, a spot opened up in Dancer

, or I just got tired of the level, I could hop out of the game, check the built in tracker, pick the game, and be back getting shot down in less than a minute. All without leaving the confines of the game. No <ALT><TAB>ing out of the game. No searching tracker sites for open/interesting games. No worrying that the game will lock up when I reenter.

So no, for me, PXO was a much simpler and more intuitive process.

If anyone wants to PM me with links to frontends, I'm open to suggestions. I saw one in another thread that looked promising, but forgot the link and thread name by the time I got home from work.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:47 pm

Suncho wrote:Wow you're right!...

But... umm... they would be ugly if they were in there... so uh don't put them in. Hehe. =)

They might work alright if an above ground section was added. They do have ties.

SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom (Lead Tester)

Alrighty then..... NEXT!!!!

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:01 pm

RE: PXO, Catch me in chat some time. I can help you get set up with everything you need.

RE: SpongeBob, There's NOTHING wrong with SpongeBob. =)

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:14 pm

Hunter.....You say your levels aren't amazing. Your wrong. The players I know always have good things to say about them. I remember when we first saw Hyperspace, one comment was "Hunter did it again".
I think that's amazing, even though I had the wrong hunter.
Bettina.

Neo · Post by **Neo** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:10 am

Paedric wrote:People play what they like. No one is forcing anyone to play a specific level. Get over it.

Don't tell me what to do. =P

I never said anyone is forcing people to play certain levels. Newbies see people playing Subway Dancer, so they join and become "Subway n00bz," meaning that they act like Subway Dancer is the whole game. People play what they like, but that doesn't mean they won't like anything else. Make yourself useful and tell everyone in Subway Dancer to try something new. =P

Regarding bashing levels: There really is no line between the self and the product of many hours of labor required to create a level. It becomes a part of you and a reflection of who you are. By bashing the level, you are, in effect, bashing the author. Maybe you wouldn't take it that way, but I've seen too many forum meltdowns and flame wars (other games) to believe that this is other truth.

The flame wars start because someone takes offense. It's not the fault of the person who bashes a level if someone takes offense.

Think before you hit the submit button. There is no reason to be rude, crude, or hurtfull in your statements regarding any particular level or author. Is this how you would like to be treated?

Oh, shut up.

By the way, Paedric, I don't mean to offend anyone by what I say. Don't take what I say personally.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:07 am

Neo wrote: The flame wars start because someone takes offense. It's not the fault of the person who bashes a level if someone takes offense.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. It's not the bullet's fault; it's the victim's fault for getting in the way of the bullet.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:02 pm

bet51987 wrote:That's what I explained. When I'm on, the same 4 or 5 games are being played every night and they are SD, abend, Stadium, and the others I mentioned. Sometimes, games are private or only 2 player too.

Now here's an idea to all of you complaining about Dancer. If one of you has a server, why not host a level, which would change on a weekely basis. Announce it on the board with links to the level and set a time and date for the festivities? That way other levels get some exposure, the whining about Dancer will subside a bit, and you can introduce others to different levels. Maybe have a vote during the week to pick the level to be played. No repeats for a 30 days.

*Dons flame retardent suit*

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:09 pm

You guys still bashing heads ? Don't you think it's time to give it a rest ? ..

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:41 pm

Grendel wrote:You guys still bashing heads ? Don't you think it's time to give it a rest ? ..

I think it's winding down now.

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:01 pm

It still sucks.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:03 am

Everything that needed to be said has already been said ThunderBunny. No need to continue flogging a dead horse. Neither one of us is going to change the other's mind so you go and play whatever and leave the rest of us alone to play what we want. Your opinion has been duly noted.

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:05 pm

But it's garbage.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:14 pm

I'm not letting this thread die like this....
SUBWAY DANCER RULES! There....
Bettina

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:32 am

It's a piece of crap.

melvin · Post by **melvin** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:29 am

you arent funny

SuzyQ · Post by **SuzyQ** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:53 am

WarAdvocat wrote:Subway Dancer is the Death of D3 as I know it.

And not in a good way.

I agree, cyclones are cheap kills, if they only remove the cyclones, it might have a chance to became a good level.

{OSS}Paedric · Post by **{OSS}Paedric** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:29 am

No Mod Subway Dancer

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:56 am

Cyclone is the best mod in SD! I always though the cyclones were really cool, they just need to be balanced (slowed down a bit, maybe).

Zero! · Post by **Zero!** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:30 am

i agree thorne... just making the cyclone slower would of made the level better.

Neo · Post by **Neo** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:40 am

ThunderBunny wrote:It still sucks.

haha!

Paedric, ThunderBunny didn't shoot Atan. He shot Subway Dancer. And it's your fault for getting in the way of the bullet. =P

I actually like the Acid Missiles (modded Cyclones). Making them slower would be a good idea, because it would get rid of most of the penith flyers. =P ^_~

El Ka Bong · Post by **El Ka Bong** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:31 pm

Stryker... We should make a mod weapon called the Nudie-rocket !

Bikinis are .."abhorrent" ...?! How would you react to walking down a beach on teh French Riviera ... ?! Run screaming !?

Sure the images in SD are ugly, non-flattering, objectifying, ... and they meant to be so.

Maybe you are a girl, not a "boy"... ok or perhaps a full complement of hormones has not begun to be released from your various glands in your body, ok....But, from my grown up, male point of view, bikinis are certainly not as you describe... The world could use a whole lot more Bikinis !

.. Sorry about straying off topic... Subway Dancer is a boring level... To much missle chuck-n-run stuff. And it crashes my PC every time I exit from it .. Bleah ! to SD .. Woo Hoo to Bikinis !

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:58 pm

Pictures of women in bikini's? That's so Duke Nukem...I don't recall seeing them anyway? (I was only in the level twice the week it came out)

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:34 pm

I am a 15 year old male, and I resent that statement. Not everyone is hooked on porn. Looking at mostly-exposed female bodies is a waste of time, energy, and it's bad for you. Get a life.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:38 pm

Stryker....I play Subway every nite. Those pictures are not pornographic, if they were, I would be out because I'm only 16. You can see those pictures on TV commercials, magazines, and sides of busses. You can see them live at the beach. I think your making an issue of nothing. So, stop it and come play with me.
Sorry if I offended you....

Bettina......

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:53 pm

So what if we're exposed to junk at every turn (which some of us aren't, not living in a big city or watching much TV)? Does that mean we should go look for it? I'm a Christian, and, quite frankly, I think that looking at half-nude pics is just plain wrong. I will not be posting replies to this topic any longer.