I don't know if anyone's 'net travels have brought them to this short documentary by Evan Maloney of brain-terminal.com, but it's interesting and worth watching. With all the talk in the current climate about censorship, fascism, and freedoms being trampled in the U.S., it's an interesting look at several cases that seem to validate those observations (but probably not in a way that your politically correct activists bearing trite slogans and are likely to acknowledge).
It's a pretty large download (77+ megs), so those with the soup cans and string might want to pass. It's available in mov, rm, and wmv.
Click hither to watch
"Brainwashing 101"
Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250
-
index_html
- DBB Captain
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:01 am
What a grotesque sight. As if it isn't enought that politics and economics are driven by the ruthless philosophies of Western (American) thought, now all the schools should preach them as well?
Plus, anyone who thinks that most people teaching politics and economics in today's schools are "anti-free market, suspicious of the United States, and reflexively intolerant of opposing views" has got their head up their a$$.
I am interested to see this video though. It sounds really exciting to "[see]...different groups of conservatives slowly describing individual incidents that happened to them" on America's oppressive and oft too liberal institutions. Like, "yay, we rule the world, now hear us whine."
Sounds fun.
Plus, anyone who thinks that most people teaching politics and economics in today's schools are "anti-free market, suspicious of the United States, and reflexively intolerant of opposing views" has got their head up their a$$.
I am interested to see this video though. It sounds really exciting to "[see]...different groups of conservatives slowly describing individual incidents that happened to them" on America's oppressive and oft too liberal institutions. Like, "yay, we rule the world, now hear us whine."
Sounds fun.
Kufyit, your ignorance is shining so bright it's hurting my brain. Did you even watch the clip? The last 15 minutes deals with a conservative Sikh who was issued death threats ("the next person that sees one of those ragheads should shoot him in the f---ing face") by a member of the left-leaning activities committee of the University of Tennessee.
I'm having trouble getting past even your first paragraph. "As if it isn't enought that politics and economics are driven by the ruthless philosiphies of Western (American) thought..."
Let me get this straight. In that one sentence you have not only confirmed the existence of an anti-American sentiment in college courses but are actually defending that sentiment! Why? Give me a solid reason why American universities should not be teaching Americans about Western thought. We seem to have given you that computer you're using to type this message. It's not like I can go to Iran and demand a Western-centered education, can I?
Watch the freakin 50-minute clip. It's about systematic oppression. I thought you bleeding-heart types would be all over that.
I'm having trouble getting past even your first paragraph. "As if it isn't enought that politics and economics are driven by the ruthless philosiphies of Western (American) thought..."
Let me get this straight. In that one sentence you have not only confirmed the existence of an anti-American sentiment in college courses but are actually defending that sentiment! Why? Give me a solid reason why American universities should not be teaching Americans about Western thought. We seem to have given you that computer you're using to type this message. It's not like I can go to Iran and demand a Western-centered education, can I?
Watch the freakin 50-minute clip. It's about systematic oppression. I thought you bleeding-heart types would be all over that.
First of all, relax please.
Second of all, Universities are meant to be places of differing thoughts. And they are. Go see for yourself. As I am nearing the end of my college career, a majority of my classes are in political science (my major). Trust me, there are PLENTY of professors that teach the values of Western style capitalism and government. As a matter of fact, almost all of them do. Some choose to question America's role in the world more than others. That is what Universities are for, questioning presumed truths, wrestling with and discovering what is fact from fiction.
You don't believe Western capitalism in ruthless? Okay, but why? More precicely, how? Do you know what the values of capitalism are?
One word: money. Things happen right, people live. Things happen wrong, people starve. THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. By saying the capitalism, and Western economic thought in general is ruthless, you don't necessarily say that it is WRONG. This is where your ignorance is "shining though." There are arguments on both sides. I tend to lean to the left, but I am by no means some kind of fanatical radical DCrazy. Do you even know what it means to "lean to the left?" It means that you, in general, support capitalism, America's "rugged individualism" and the whole bit, BUT you also see the need for welfare systems of all kinds. You believe that spending money on social programs is generally a good thing. You believe that since "we" give "us" computers, TV's, parks, schools, roads, and everything else, "we" should contribute money from what "we" earn to make the systems of this country better for "us." Where else should the money come from?
On all campuses there are plenty of livberal ideas. But to think that they are, for the most part, run by liberals is a joke. Go take a look for yourself.
Also, as I made clear in my first post, I haven't seen the video yet. I was downloading it when I posted, then showered, then ate, then read, and I will probably watch it tomorrow. What I was responding to was the sight itself. The premise. The theme. The motive.
It's wrong.
Second of all, Universities are meant to be places of differing thoughts. And they are. Go see for yourself. As I am nearing the end of my college career, a majority of my classes are in political science (my major). Trust me, there are PLENTY of professors that teach the values of Western style capitalism and government. As a matter of fact, almost all of them do. Some choose to question America's role in the world more than others. That is what Universities are for, questioning presumed truths, wrestling with and discovering what is fact from fiction.
You don't believe Western capitalism in ruthless? Okay, but why? More precicely, how? Do you know what the values of capitalism are?
One word: money. Things happen right, people live. Things happen wrong, people starve. THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. By saying the capitalism, and Western economic thought in general is ruthless, you don't necessarily say that it is WRONG. This is where your ignorance is "shining though." There are arguments on both sides. I tend to lean to the left, but I am by no means some kind of fanatical radical DCrazy. Do you even know what it means to "lean to the left?" It means that you, in general, support capitalism, America's "rugged individualism" and the whole bit, BUT you also see the need for welfare systems of all kinds. You believe that spending money on social programs is generally a good thing. You believe that since "we" give "us" computers, TV's, parks, schools, roads, and everything else, "we" should contribute money from what "we" earn to make the systems of this country better for "us." Where else should the money come from?
On all campuses there are plenty of livberal ideas. But to think that they are, for the most part, run by liberals is a joke. Go take a look for yourself.
Also, as I made clear in my first post, I haven't seen the video yet. I was downloading it when I posted, then showered, then ate, then read, and I will probably watch it tomorrow. What I was responding to was the sight itself. The premise. The theme. The motive.
It's wrong.
-
Lothar
- DBB Ghost Admin
- Posts: 12133
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
- Location: I'm so glad to be home
- Contact:
If you'd watched the first segment, you'd see that the big concern was that the econ department focused *exclusively* on Marxist ideas and ideas derived from it. One of the students was talking about how only one guy in his entire department had read anything by (some famous Western economist whose name I forget). There's nothing wrong with talking about Marxist ideas -- but to teach an entire economics degree, and never touch on Western economics ideas?kufyit wrote:What a grotesque sight. As if it isn't enought that politics and economics are driven by the ruthless philosophies of Western (American) thought, now all the schools should preach them as well?
Nobody is saying the schools should "preach" Western economics. Only that, somewhere in the curriculum, it should at least be touched upon, rather than being treated the way it is.
I don't recall the guy saying "most people" -- but he did point out that, clearly, the faculty at that particular university (Bucknell?) were that way. It's hard to conclude otherwise from the interviews, and it's certainly something I've seen other places, like my own university. Anti-free-market? Check. Suspicious of the US? Check. Reflexively intolerant of other views? Judging from the response to the "Affirmative Action bake sale", various Republican-sponsored speeches, religious groups on campus, etc. I'd have to agree. I don't know if that covers "most people" but it certainly covers the loudest.Plus, anyone who thinks that most people teaching politics and economics in today's schools are "anti-free market, suspicious of the United States, and reflexively intolerant of opposing views" has got their head up their a$$.
Let me get this straight: your reasoning is "the president is a Republican, therefore, no conservatives have any legitimate grudges whatsoever." Yeah, I totally buy thatI am interested to see this video though. It sounds really exciting to "[see]...different groups of conservatives slowly describing individual incidents that happened to them" on America's oppressive and oft too liberal institutions. Like, "yay, we rule the world, now hear us whine."
Seriously... watch it before you whine about it.
The documentary was kind of weak, but it did highlight several *legitimate* grudges, which fit into a larger pattern of intolerance that most college conservatives can attest to. (My undergrad university was one of the few where the bias went the other way, so I've seen it from both sides -- and I recognized it in both places. It's a sad commentary on your own perspective that you don't.)
I haven't watched the video but I can tell you that as someone that goes to one of the most liberal schools in the entire country, UC Santa Cruz, there is very little devoted to Marx. I'm an economics major too.
I have to agree that schools shouldn't talk exclusively about any one opinion. But from the responses from conservatives I see, I think I can predict what the contents of the video are going to be about. I think I have heard it all before and I'm betting it's a slanted video, but I'll take a look in the morning. Please withold evaluation of my statement until then
----
Watched the video -- wow this was actually worse than I expected!
Funny Hayek I've read multiple times, including by the MOST liberal professor in the school. I read Freedman in his class too.
I don't know if I buy it. Maybe the guy has taken 2 classes. There's also some silly chop-job quoting going down
If it's true, it is deplorable if a school is only teaching Marx. The communist-Marx connections are very silly that are brought up.
In economics marx is very important because he revealed an important part of the capitalist equation: exploitation of labor. Pay the employee less than the value they add to the company. This is the still the norm and a typical way to extract profit. That does not mean however, that
1) Capitalism is bad
2) Communism is good
3) Things of value are not produced
Also realize that exploitation of labor simply refers to paying workers less than the value added to the company by their work. It does not mean whipping and beating people.
Students at bucknell - 2 people. Wow! Hard hitting!
The cal poly scenario--I didn't see much brainwashing in the cirriculum. just some dumbass officials. I think the student that did the flyers knew he was being provokative, but the response was certainly overboard.
Oh wah, harassed conservatives. Where was the brainwashing in the video? ;p Title rename, please!
The speech code thing was the best thing the video brought up. It's silly.
U Of Tennessee is stupid, no question on that. But I didn't really feel that that university as a whole could be branded "leftist" by that issue.
Oh woah are the conservatives. The colleges and the media are all liberally biased! Where do they have to turn?
I half expected at the end of the video to see credits that said: "By woodchip" and "Damn those leftists!!"
I have to agree that schools shouldn't talk exclusively about any one opinion. But from the responses from conservatives I see, I think I can predict what the contents of the video are going to be about. I think I have heard it all before and I'm betting it's a slanted video, but I'll take a look in the morning. Please withold evaluation of my statement until then
----
Watched the video -- wow this was actually worse than I expected!
Funny Hayek I've read multiple times, including by the MOST liberal professor in the school. I read Freedman in his class too.
I don't know if I buy it. Maybe the guy has taken 2 classes. There's also some silly chop-job quoting going down
If it's true, it is deplorable if a school is only teaching Marx. The communist-Marx connections are very silly that are brought up.In economics marx is very important because he revealed an important part of the capitalist equation: exploitation of labor. Pay the employee less than the value they add to the company. This is the still the norm and a typical way to extract profit. That does not mean however, that
1) Capitalism is bad
2) Communism is good
3) Things of value are not produced
Also realize that exploitation of labor simply refers to paying workers less than the value added to the company by their work. It does not mean whipping and beating people.
Students at bucknell - 2 people. Wow! Hard hitting!
The cal poly scenario--I didn't see much brainwashing in the cirriculum. just some dumbass officials. I think the student that did the flyers knew he was being provokative, but the response was certainly overboard.
Oh wah, harassed conservatives. Where was the brainwashing in the video? ;p Title rename, please!
The speech code thing was the best thing the video brought up. It's silly.
U Of Tennessee is stupid, no question on that. But I didn't really feel that that university as a whole could be branded "leftist" by that issue.
Oh woah are the conservatives. The colleges and the media are all liberally biased! Where do they have to turn?
I half expected at the end of the video to see credits that said: "By woodchip" and "Damn those leftists!!"
-
Lothar
- DBB Ghost Admin
- Posts: 12133
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
- Location: I'm so glad to be home
- Contact:
Of course it's a slanted video. But I doubt it's intentionally misleading -- I doubt knowing the context of the quotes would change the meaning, unlike F911.
I do think it's interesting to note: as much as I've heard people on the left cry "censorship" and "government tyranny", I haven't heard of any of them actually being censored (though there certainly may be some; "Disney wouldn't distribute Michael Moore's film" doesn't count.) I'm hearing these cries of "censorship" broadcast live from their protests where they're protected by police, not seeing underground footage where protestors are harassed by them. If you can stand there and complain that your government is tyrannical, that probably means it isn't.
On the other hand, I have heard of a lot of people on the right being censored, and I've watched the footage. You've got this video, you've got some of the protestwarrior video, you've got the Affirmative Action bake sale, etc. And that's really impressive to me -- the contrast between the cries of "censorship" from people whose protests are going out on live TV, and the actual cases of censorship I've seen. You'd think, with how many people claim the left is being censored, somebody could produce a documentary like this one with the opposite slant. But I'm willing to bet it won't happen, because the left doesn't actually get censored all that much.
I do think it's interesting to note: as much as I've heard people on the left cry "censorship" and "government tyranny", I haven't heard of any of them actually being censored (though there certainly may be some; "Disney wouldn't distribute Michael Moore's film" doesn't count.) I'm hearing these cries of "censorship" broadcast live from their protests where they're protected by police, not seeing underground footage where protestors are harassed by them. If you can stand there and complain that your government is tyrannical, that probably means it isn't.
On the other hand, I have heard of a lot of people on the right being censored, and I've watched the footage. You've got this video, you've got some of the protestwarrior video, you've got the Affirmative Action bake sale, etc. And that's really impressive to me -- the contrast between the cries of "censorship" from people whose protests are going out on live TV, and the actual cases of censorship I've seen. You'd think, with how many people claim the left is being censored, somebody could produce a documentary like this one with the opposite slant. But I'm willing to bet it won't happen, because the left doesn't actually get censored all that much.
-
Will Robinson
- DBB Grand Master
- Posts: 10135
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am
I don't think this film is showing an anomaly, it's showing the norm. I'd love to be proven wrong on this though.
I can think of many examples of a left leaning administration on a campus selectively applying political correctness in their policy to protect only the sensitivities of the left leaning students, their 'right to not be offended' as it were.
I can't think of *any* examples of a right leaning administration doing the same for the right leaning students.
Can someone show me even one?
Better yet can you show me two or three? I'm not holding my breath so don't feel pressured trying to fill my request....
I can think of many examples of a left leaning administration on a campus selectively applying political correctness in their policy to protect only the sensitivities of the left leaning students, their 'right to not be offended' as it were.
I can't think of *any* examples of a right leaning administration doing the same for the right leaning students.
Can someone show me even one?
Better yet can you show me two or three? I'm not holding my breath so don't feel pressured trying to fill my request....
-
index_html
- DBB Captain
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:01 am
It's worth noting that three people worked on the clip and are trying to use this short video to attract interest in a feature film. I mean, give the guy credit for going out there and doing it at least, he's not 60 Minutes with a huge budget.Students at bucknell - 2 people. Wow! Hard hitting!
I don't think the point of the documentary is really "poor conservatives" or right vs. left even. It's about double standards and supposedly tolerant ideology that begets intolerance and the narrowing of ideas. But, that's my take.
I'd agree that he could have picked a less ominous title though. "One side fits all" might be a little less provacative ... and we don't want "provacative"
will you have a serious issue with statistics. First you believe the Media Research Center, now two bucknell conservatives whine a bit and its "the norm". How many classes had the guy taken? I'd really like to know. I have been an econ major at 2 different schools. I was taught Marx in 1 class for about 1/2 of a single class. The same class also taught us aobut the transition from Mercantilism to capitalism, and the Keynsian revolution.
I have taken 13 classes. Teaching Marxism as the only topic is most likely an ouright lie to me, or a serious distortion. We never got to find out what classes the guy had actually taken.
You think it's the norm because that's what you want to believe. All those darn leftists do all that slanted messed up teaching right? Aww, it must be real rough for you with the colleges and media slanted against you.
Index said:
" don't think the point of the documentary is really "poor conservatives" or right vs. left even. It's about double standards and supposedly tolerant ideology that begets intolerance and the narrowing of ideas"
I'd agree if the guy had bothered to cover some conservative schools where Marx readings are probably not covered and the communist groups are laughed off campus. This stuff goes both ways. The movie was a movie for conservatives by conservatives talking about lefty slant and how it was a problem at colleges. An easy conservative crowd pleaser.
I enjoyed parts of it and thought it was funny. Definitely had some of this humerous michael moore moments: "I saw the president, he was just sitting there doing nothing"
I have taken 13 classes. Teaching Marxism as the only topic is most likely an ouright lie to me, or a serious distortion. We never got to find out what classes the guy had actually taken.
You think it's the norm because that's what you want to believe. All those darn leftists do all that slanted messed up teaching right? Aww, it must be real rough for you with the colleges and media slanted against you.
Index said:
" don't think the point of the documentary is really "poor conservatives" or right vs. left even. It's about double standards and supposedly tolerant ideology that begets intolerance and the narrowing of ideas"
I'd agree if the guy had bothered to cover some conservative schools where Marx readings are probably not covered and the communist groups are laughed off campus. This stuff goes both ways. The movie was a movie for conservatives by conservatives talking about lefty slant and how it was a problem at colleges. An easy conservative crowd pleaser.
I enjoyed parts of it and thought it was funny. Definitely had some of this humerous michael moore moments: "I saw the president, he was just sitting there doing nothing"
This video is dead on. If you look at any university in the country, you'll see stories like these. That bit about actions against students after September 11 was truly sickening. Especially the quote of that one professor: "I'll vote for anyone who blows up the Pentagon." Can anyone literally say they wouldn't like to beat the $hit out of that guy? The thing I found most interesting was, in the case of the student and the flyer, the College Democrats club was in full support of the student in question. This isn't just about conservative vs. liberal, it's about oppressing any ideas that are contrary to the whackjobs who run these schools. Apparently, "free speech" doesn't extend to viewpoints that you don't agree with . Another great line was something like, "Anything that offends someone does not fall under the protection of free speech." WTF? God, how I despise political correctness. I'm a member of my college's own Republican club, and I'll be sure to pass this link around .
P.S. Birdseye, if you can't see that major universities have a liberal slant, you've got your head way up your posterior.
. Another great line was something like, "Anything that offends someone does not fall under the protection of free speech." WTF? God, how I despise political correctness. I'm a member of my college's own Republican club, and I'll be sure to pass this link around .P.S. Birdseye, if you can't see that major universities have a liberal slant, you've got your head way up your posterior
.Sorry, Lothar, but was whining about the SITE (for the third time), not the video. I didnt say anything about the video except for a sarcastic remark about how much "fun" it seemed like it was going to be watching it.Lothar wrote: Seriously... watch it before you whine about it.
Oh yah, the president is a Republican. Oh, but so are the House AND the Senate as far as I know (I may be wrong). Also, 7 of the 9 Supreme Court judges are Republican appointed. Alas, I wasn't even talking about Republicans. I was talking about Western Capitalists, who DO rule the world. White, male, Western Capitalists.
And why even use the word 'whine'? We don't need to make this personal, Mr. Lothar. I have never said anything like that to you. So, cool your jets.
-
Lothar
- DBB Ghost Admin
- Posts: 12133
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
- Location: I'm so glad to be home
- Contact:
I don't think Will is saying it's "the norm" because of his sample size of 2 from the video. I think he's saying it's "the norm" because it meshes with his own observations of what the norm is -- he's saying it's representative of what he's observed.Birdseye wrote:two bucknell conservatives whine a bit and its "the norm".
Which is exactly what I said: it's representative of what I observe pretty regularly on my campus.
It's nice to see how much respect you have for those of us who hold this perspective.You think it's the norm because that's what you want to believe.
I think it's the norm because it's what I see with my own eyes all the time. But if you want to claim it's just "seeing what I want to see" there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.
-
Will Robinson
- DBB Grand Master
- Posts: 10135
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am
Birdseye, Lothar summed up my point pretty well.
You might be focused a bit on the economics example in the first part, I'm speaking to the overall 'politically correct' aspect regardless of how it manifests itself.
In that context my challenge stands: Show me where rightwingers in the administration have used their authority on campus to silence leftwing activity/speech that rightwingers find offensive.
I don't have a problem with statistics but but I'm smart enough to know that just because a party has an interest in one side of an issue doesn't mean their complaint can't be legitimate...address the issue and the complaint with something more than an attack on the fact that they have a dog in the hunt.
It's the norm unless you can show me something to prove the reality I've experienced is just an anomaly. If I hadn't heard of numerous examples on the issue, all supporting the conclusions I've since drawn *then* I wouldn't hold my view but right now *you* are the one who is just seeing what he wants to see. Show me I'm wrong, find an example.
You might be focused a bit on the economics example in the first part, I'm speaking to the overall 'politically correct' aspect regardless of how it manifests itself.
In that context my challenge stands: Show me where rightwingers in the administration have used their authority on campus to silence leftwing activity/speech that rightwingers find offensive.
I don't have a problem with statistics but but I'm smart enough to know that just because a party has an interest in one side of an issue doesn't mean their complaint can't be legitimate...address the issue and the complaint with something more than an attack on the fact that they have a dog in the hunt.
It's the norm unless you can show me something to prove the reality I've experienced is just an anomaly. If I hadn't heard of numerous examples on the issue, all supporting the conclusions I've since drawn *then* I wouldn't hold my view but right now *you* are the one who is just seeing what he wants to see. Show me I'm wrong, find an example.
-
Will Robinson
- DBB Grand Master
- Posts: 10135
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 3:01 am
Marx. It's funny how most people villainize him.
Talk to any economist. They will tell you Marx is one of the most important figures in their field, left and right alike. In terms of capital, how it moves, how it's generated, and how it was first accumulated, he's right. Yet, that's not what people refer to when they say Marx.
However, his is social philosophies can (and do, in academia) stand seperately from his economics. Has anyone here actually read Capital (Das Kapital)? I doubt it. Yet we criticize him.
Talk to any economist. They will tell you Marx is one of the most important figures in their field, left and right alike. In terms of capital, how it moves, how it's generated, and how it was first accumulated, he's right. Yet, that's not what people refer to when they say Marx.
However, his is social philosophies can (and do, in academia) stand seperately from his economics. Has anyone here actually read Capital (Das Kapital)? I doubt it. Yet we criticize him.
Marx IS Western economics. Just because he doesn't approve (he actually does, but thats more details than ya'll want) doesn't mean that his work regarding capitalism is wrong. What he talks about is what happens. Employers hire labor, the worker works, the worker generates profits, the capitalist reinvests those profits into more capital. Seems pretty Western to me.Lothar wrote:never touch on Western economics ideas...
