What is your opinion, am I in the wrong?

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:42 pm

I am in a debate that I am sure to lose, but perhaps you could give your opinion as well.

See This Post on the Bay Area Riders Forum about a Harley-Davidson Biker who punched out my mirror in the middle of an intersection after we tried to drive thru it at the same time.

Then vote here, and comment if you wish.

melvin · Post by **melvin** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:07 am

legally, your turn turn into the far lane puts you in the wrong. (assuming the barf members have their facts about right hand turns into a controlled intersection checked.)

practically, that guy should have waited for you. it sounds like he was going too fast. i can easily see that happening to anyone because the the amount of asphalt you have to merge into the left turn lane to hit 99 N is too small and the amount of stopped traffic waiting in that left turn lane to get onto 99 is too big. either break the law or miss your exit. sounds like you did what you had to do.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:11 am

Traffic was at a standstill, so if you turned across 3 lanes of non-moving traffic into the far lane, that's fine. If some biker came flying through in between lanes and nearly hit you, that sounds like his fault -- if you're driving between lanes moving faster than surrounding traffic, you should know that there are going to be stopped vehicles, especially in and around intersections, and you should avoid them.

Certainly he's in the wrong for punching your mirror.

And it was probably stupid of you to post it on a biker forum.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:13 am

Well I know your turn would have been illegal in New York State; I wouldn't be surprised if it was in California too.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:19 am

Lothar wrote: And it was probably stupid of you to post it on a biker forum.

You should know I LOVE STIRRING UP CONFLICT!

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:59 am

i think you should be punched in the head instead. you called 911 for a biker punching your mirror. you then proceeded to conversate with the dispatcher further? how could you be that stupid? i mean, i'm not trying to go out of my way to be a dickhead here, but c'mon - you tied up 911 for how long over a mirror? you potentially cost someone their life. if you didn't know the non-emergency number, dial 411 and get it.

have fun with natural selection, i hear she's been rather aggressive lately.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:07 am

Does anyone else have any constructive comments that don't belong in a heapin sack of burning dung?

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:22 am

you might as well tell anyone who had a real emergency at the time that they are worth a sack of dung. good going.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:23 am

I concur with Kurupt.

IIRC, a turn like that is also illegal up here in Alberta also.

Mind you, a major highway here would never be backed up like that.

In short, the biker's insurance isn't going to paying for your mirror.

Iceman · Post by **Iceman** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:18 pm

Warning: Can't connect to MySQL server on 'yamaha' (113) in /usr/local/vbulletin/vbulletin-2.2.7/admin/db_mysql.php on line 38

There seems to have been a slight problem with the database.
Please try again by pressing the refresh button in your browser.

An E-Mail has been dispatched to our Technical Staff, who you can also contact if the problem persists.

We apologise for any inconvenience.

STRESSTEST · Post by **STRESSTEST** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:56 pm

Warning: Can't connect to MySQL server on 'yamaha' (113) in /usr/local/vbulletin/vbulletin-2.2.7/admin/db_mysql.php on line 38

There seems to have been a slight problem with the database.
Please try again by pressing the refresh button in your browser.
An E-Mail has been dispatched to our Technical Staff, who you can also contact if the problem persists.

We apologise for any inconvenience.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:08 pm

Yea, their website seems to be hacked, er down. er, i didnt have anything to do with it

Ok, I've posted the original post here, so you can see it. (I had saved this long post in a document)

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:09 pm

HD-Rider punched my mirror out

This happened last year in Modesto, CA. I was driving on N. 9th street trying to make a right hand
turn onto N. Carpenter, eastbound, to get on northbound 99. To do this, I had to get in the far
left lane, but I cannot remember if that street has 3 or four lanes. Either way, it was a long way to
merge, in a very short merge distance, during peak rush hour traffic.

I waited patiently until traffic on Carpenter stopped at the 9th street limit line. Being very
careful, I slowly and cautiously pulled my truck out into the lanes of traffic, trying to merge into the
far left lane. However, I didn't see any motorcycles coming. Apparently a guy on a Harley-Davidson bike
was splitting traffic, and he pulled into the intersection where my truck already was. He tried to
go straight, straight thru where I was, and then he swerved violently out left almost hitting me and
screaming at me. Since I had my windows rolled up, I couldn't hear what he was saying, nor did I care to
find out. But apparently he was very upset and decided to express himself by punching out my
driver's side mirror and then drive into opposing lanes around my truck, and past several other cars.

So here I am, in the middle of the road, merged into the far left hand lane, my left hand mirror was
smashed by an inconsiderate biker who failed to yield to a vehicle already in the lanes of traffic,
and I barely managed to maintain my self control and NOT turn my 3/4 ton truck into a motorcycle
battering ram.

After calming myself down, I called 911, and the conversation went something like this:
Me - Hi, I was just hit by a biker in Modesto
Dispatcher - Where are you now?
Me - I'm driving on Carpenter, at hwy 99
Dispatcher - You're driving??? If you've been involved in an accident you need to pull over right
now!
Me - No, you don't understand, he hit me!
Dispatcher - You need to pull over and await a police unit.
Me - You still aren't getting it, he PUNCHED MY MIRROR OUT. Because we almost collided in an
intersection that I was already in.

The rest of the conversation was useless, as I was unable to get any plates on him. The only
identifying thing I remember was he was wearing a leather jacket with the word "WOLVERINE" on the
back. Since then, I've always looked for a biker driving a Harley with a WOLVERINE leather jacket,
black hair, rough looks, and a 1%er attitude. I've never found him. Not that I want revenge, but I
wanted to ask him why he was so violent when it was obvious that he was in the wrong. Naturally, I might
lose another mirror or worse. So maybe that ain't such a good idea. I just hope I don't suddenly go
ballistic if I see someone like that and want to
find out what happens with 3/4 Ton Truck VS Bike.
Nah, I'd never do that. But I've fantasized about it.

Other than that incident, I have a great deal of respect for bikers, and try to always move out of
their way when they split traffic. Just don't go punching my mirrors out, I might not be able to
control myself next time.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:30 pm

I don't see anything wrong with your driving move. I know that, according to my Pennsylvania Driver's Handbook, you're supposed to turn into the lane closest to you, but I also know that people make turns like that every day, and I doubt the cops care about it. Considering that the oncoming traffic was sitting at a red light, there was absolutely no danger in what you were doing, except for that caused by the idiot motorcyclist. In this situation, he's guilty of several traffic offenses, including running a red light, driving in between lanes, driving into opposing traffic, and, of course, road rage

. Given all of this, I would say that calling 911 was the proper course, so that the cops could get this nutjob off the road.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:35 pm

One thing that my original post on their site forgot to mention was that:

Traffic was stopped in front of a DO NOT BLOCK INTERSECTION sign on the road. I turned right on a STOP SIGN.

Sligar · Post by **Sligar** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:32 pm

Lobber wrote:Not that I want revenge, but I
wanted to ask him why he was so violent when it was obvious that he was in the wrong.

Its simple. When people are put in harms way, they may respond aggressively without looking at wrong or right, its the instinct of self preservation, 'fight or flight'. The biker could easily have been horribly maimed or killed in a collision, while you were in a protective steel cage and the risks were much less for you. Does that make it right, hell no. But I can understand it. A moment of adrenaline and righteous anger and there it is.

I recently heard a story about two soldiers (call them 'A' and 'B') that were parachuting, and A thought it would be a funny thing to touch his feet on B's chute. They became entangled, and A ended up clinging to B. B was so enraged he drew his knife and tried to cut A loose, and they both ended up plummeting to the ground, without any parachute at all. Did B's actions make any sense? I think it probably was a case of someone raging out of control, it happens.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:59 pm

Lobber wrote:Yea, their website seems to be hacked, er down. er, i didnt have anything to do with it

Ok, I've posted the original post here, so you can see it. (I had saved this long post in a document)

No, what happened is that there was so much traffic on the server at once. That happens on any vBulletin hosted BB. phpBB isn't immune to it either.

EDIT:

I have no idea what the traffic laws are in your area, but over here in TN, you would have been clearly at fault. Here, you must pull into the right-most lane and then only if the lane is sufficiently clear can you pull over into the next lane (whichever one that is). From the way your crude drawing shows, and your lack of specific detail in your post, it looks like you just zipped over to the left most lane. The biker clearly had the right-of-way, going by TN traffic laws, thus he had every right to be pissed off at you. At most, the biker would have been fined for the damage he did to your truck.

Again, I have no idea what the traffic laws are in your neck of the woods, so if they are different please say so. (and if possible, link to the law in question)

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:22 pm

In my opinion if a biker splits traffic and races down between cars in rush hour traffic he is just asking for it. Here in California I see a lot of bikers driving like maniacs! I have no problem with bikers (I plan on getting one in the near future), but they assume they own the road and everyone else is in the wrong. We all need to drive "defensivly", none of us are perfect so we all need to keep a watch out for others making mistakes. Even if it was your fault for not turning into the first left lane first, the biker should have been going slow enough to be able to stop or move out of your way safely.

What you did Lobber is probably fine, he should have stopped before the intersection like all the other cars and took a good long look first.

BTW Lobber, why did you say on that board that you would like to get a bike but hadn't decided what type to get, and then later on say "No, I do not ride. Nor will I ever ride."??

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:57 pm

Xamindar wrote:What you did Lobber is probably fine, he should have stopped before the intersection like all the other cars and took a good long look first.

Yes, I did. I took alot of care before deciding to move into the lanes of traffic, waiting until all of the cars stopped behind their limit line because the cars ahead of them on the street were stacked up.

Xamindar wrote:BTW Lobber, why did you say on that board that you would like to get a bike but hadn't decided what type to get, and then later on say "No, I do not ride. Nor will I ever ride."??

I never said that I wanted to get a bike. However, I categorized them into three groups and wondered which one I would fit into if I was a biker.

Should also note that since traffic was jammed I had to get into the far left most lane or else there would be a good 75% chance I'd miss the turning lane to get on the highway, because cars would block off all of the left lanes if I were to get into the first right lane before trying to merge.

I've driven through that intersection before, and that was the first time I ran into a Harley rider.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:13 pm

VINDICATED by California Law.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:24 pm

If you made the illegal turn before he emerged from the traffic then you're at fault... you would have caused the incident between you and him. If he had hit a car in normal traffic while illegally splitting traffic at faster than 10 mph, then he would have been at fault, but you wouldn't have been there had you not made the illegal turn first.

Which is more dangerous? IMO, splitting traffic. But that kind of relativism doesn't matter.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:36 am

in ohio you are both in the wrong. technically anyway. our laws state that you must turn into the near lane first and if you fail to do so you will be ticketed. on the other hand, driving a motorcycle in between the lanes especially in between traffic like that is also illegal, and that is enforced. the turning into the far lane instead of the near one is pretty much enforced as much as our "no adultery" law.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:58 am

You sure he was splitting traffic? You diagram makes it look like the left lane should still be moving.

lol at the 911 call. why...

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:23 am

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 1800-21807

California Vehicle Code Section 21800 Subdivision a wrote:
(a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the
entrance to, or within, an intersection shall stop as required by
Section 22450. The driver shall then yield the right-of-way to any
vehicles which have approached from another highway, or which are
approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard, and
shall continue to yield the right-of-way to those vehicles until he
or she can proceed with reasonable safety.

Subdivision b wrote:
(b) A driver having yielded as prescribed in subdivision (a) may
proceed to enter the intersection, and the drivers of all other
approaching vehicles shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle
entering or crossing the intersection.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 2100-22113

California Vehicle Code Section 22100 Subdivision a wrote:
(a) Right Turns. Both the approach for a right-hand turn and a
right-hand turn shall be made as close as practicable to the
right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except:
(1) Upon a highway having three marked lanes for traffic moving in
one direction which terminates at an intersecting highway
accommodating traffic in both directions, the driver of a vehicle in
the middle lane may turn right into any lane lawfully available to
traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.
(2) When a right-hand turn is made from a one-way highway at an
intersection, a driver shall approach the turn as provided in
subdivision (a) and shall complete the turn in any lane lawfully
available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being
entered.
(3) Upon a highway having an additional lane or lanes marked for a
right turn by appropriate signs or markings, the driver of a vehicle
may turn right from any lane designated and marked for that turning
movement.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 2348-22366

California Vehicle Code Section 22350 wrote: No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed
greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather,
visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the
highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of
persons or property.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 1650-21664

California Vehicle Code Section 21658 Subdivision a wrote:
A vehicle shall be driven as nearly as practical entirely
within a single lane and shall not be moved from the lane until such
movement can be made with reasonable safety.

According to the California Vehicle Code (ie. The Law), what you were doing was legal and what he was doing was illegal.

I challenge anyone to find any legal document that says lane splitting is legal in California... or in otherwords that Motorcycles are somehow exempt from California Vehicle Code Section 21658 Subdivision a.

It is true that in some counties Motercyclists will not be ticketed for *SAFE* lane splitting. Safe lane splitting, among other things, means that they're not violating the California Basic Speed Law (CVC Section 22350).

The Basic Speed Law explicitly states that the operator of a vehicle *MUST* take into account visibility, traffic, and safety. Since the biker was splitting lanes of stopped traffic, his visibility was significantly impared and a speed that may have ordinarily been safe was no longer safe as evidenced by the fact that he almost crashed into someone who was making a *LEGAL* turn and had the right of way.

So even if we forget that splitting lanes is illegal in the first place, he was still riding illegally because he was moving too fast to be safe.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:07 pm

THEY WERE WRONG!
MUWAHAHAHAHA oh I am so going to hell for this, but I'm gonna tear those bikers a new one now!

Thanks Suncho! You're my hero!

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:29 pm

Lobber, thats not very smart dude. You've already stirred the pot as it is. You don't want a bunch of bikers looking for your ass. You just might loose something other than a mirror. Let it go man.

JMEaT · Post by **JMEaT** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:39 pm

Yup. Right or wrong, causing more trouble with these people is a bad idea.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:45 pm

I gave them hell.
I don't fear them. If they want to take me on, my truck will flatten their punkasses.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:49 pm

*sigh*

Its your life dude...

Just don't complain when something happens.

JMEaT · Post by **JMEaT** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:57 pm

Fear or not, I think it is silly to make things worse... But that is just my opinion.

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:47 pm

alot of the guys on BARF, are correct, that stop sign made it a controlled intersection. just because traffic is stopped at a "Do Not Block Intersection" sign...doesnt mean you can just pull out. the bike did have the right-of-way because he had no stop sign and would not have been blocking the intersection, he would have just drove threw it.

HOWEVER!! splitting lanes and traffic like he was supposedly doing can constitute him in the wrong. he should have not been travelling at the speeds you say he was going at. that is by far, unsafe and can constitue a moving violation-citation.

now, him punching your mirror, had you been able to get his tag and what not, you could have told the police that you have his tag number and last known direction of travel.....the cops could have found him and talked to both of you and settled that in a final answer....no debates till court. he would then ultimately be responsible for paying for your mirror, but since you dont have any means of finding out who he is, your left with that bill.

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:03 pm

Lobber wrote:THEY WERE WRONG!
MUWAHAHAHAHA oh I am so going to hell for this, but I'm gonna tear those bikers a new one now!

Thanks Suncho! You're my hero!

Such the JW way to do things.

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:50 pm

Well, ace, if you read the law posted by Suncho carefully, you can see a few things:

1. I could not make a right hand turn until such time as it was safe to do so, ie... when gridlock traffic stopped at their limiting line, which they did

2. From the left hand lane of my street, i could turn into the far left hand lane of their street, legally.

3. Once I began my turn, while I was in the intersection, no other vehicles could enter until I had safely made the turn, that gives me the right of way, yielded by all the cars stopped.

4. The motorcyclist failed to yield, and drove in an unsafe manner, and finally, committed an act of vandalism.

Therefore while you are right, I cannot "just pull out" whenever I feel like it, I could pull out into traffic once it was safe to do so, which I did. Right of way belongs to the vehicle currently occupying the intersection under all circumstances except when emergency vehicles are involved. The motorcycle entering later did not have right of way for that very reason.

Xamindar - do i look like a perfect human being to you?

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:57 pm

Lobber wrote:Xamindar - do i look like a perfect human being to you?

It's just a joke Lobber.

I hope you weren't offended by that.
Nobody is perfect.

Wang_Lo · Post by **Wang_Lo** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:58 pm

wow, your so right, do you want a cookie now, with whip cream or something. Does being right in this case make you jump and skip or something? How the hell did you dig up the year old story? just wondering.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:06 pm

When you split lanes you have no rights (it's illegal) because all traffic laws are based from the occupation of a lane...NOT INBETWEEN

After many years of riding.. if I was the one splitting lanes through STOPPED traffic when I got to the clearing I would have wondered WTF... and checked the opening before proceeding.

But dont worry Lobber with habits like that he definately became a CHILI DOG!

Lobber · Post by **Lobber** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:39 pm

Xamindar - ok, i get it now... hah.. .haha... hahahahah

Wang_Lo - yay for me! a cookie!

/jumps /skips
I didn't dig up a one year old story, it is MY story foo! F00

BUBBABOO - I hope that wasn't you lol

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:49 pm

BUBBALOU wrote:But dont worry Lobber with habits like that he definately became a CHILI DOG!

Can i have that with a side of gravel please?

Wang_Lo · Post by **Wang_Lo** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:12 am

ROFL, can you make a picture of you skipping and jumping while eating the cookie?
cmon please?

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:36 pm

I have no sympathy for the biker because he clearly caused a dangerous situation in the first place by splitting lanes at high speeds, especially considering your move was legal and that he should have checked first WHY people stopped at that intersection. No wonder why so many accedents happen because of idiot bikers.

Mayby it wasnt the right idea to occupy a 911 operator's time after the biker had left, but considering what people do when they are filled with rage, it was the right thing to do because it could have been worse, and your life would have been in danger. What would they have wanted you to do, call 911 after you have been beaten to pulp? Or even shot to death?

And most of the morons on BARF are arrogant idiots. No wonder why they name themselves that way, they are nothing more than that.

What is your opinion, am I in the wrong?

What is your take of the situation? SEE LINK BEFORE VOTING

What is your opinion, am I in the wrong?

Original Post: