RANT: western values?

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:52 am

what are western values? you know, the ones we are defending?

here in australia we don't know, we've never really thought about it before. so when we heard that we were "defending our western values" we kinda took theusa's lead and just defined it as "the ability to throw another snag on the barbie in the backyard".

hah. yeah, it didn't make sense to me either.

ok, this may get ugly now:

in the USA you guys are forever pandering that you are the land of the free, leaders of the freeworld.

now, do you know that that is a load of ★■◆●? usa is the LEAST free nation of all of the 1st world, it has the most oppressive laws, your citizens are the LEAST FREE outof any 1st world nation.

this "land of the free" parroted saying has to stop, the world rolls it's eyes whenever it hears this nonsense. it makes the nation look like a nation of nieve dumbasses who refuse to look, listen, and compare, to see how deep into facism they truly are compared to the rest of the 1st world.

this is why the term "western values" is confusing when we hear america talking about it. is theusa really in a position to be able to tell the rest of the world about western values? the rest of the 1st world maybe doesn't think so.

in this 'war on some terror' we are supposed to be defending these ellusive "western values". we've been told that "thems damned terrorists are after em!", so of course everyone sprung into action, visciously defending: um, what?

our western cultural values?

perhaps we got up and with our guns defencively surrounded book librarys, or video rental librarys.

is this where our culture is? is this the sourse of our "western values"?

did we perhaps hear the "woot woot, western values under threat!" call, and get up to valantently defend our educational systems? education is the important base of our western values right? afterall, without school, we'd all be stupid dumbasses. and nothing spells the evil EASTERN VALUES like uh... those bad things i just said... oh yeah: LACK OF EDUCATION. right?
i mean, a lack of education is what causes people to go and strap bombs to themselves. right? soooo... i guess the biggest armys on earth would have to come from teh stupidist populations. the cultures with the LEAST amount of educated people, the people who are the most willing to believe what some loud mofo at their church, or behind a whitehouse podium (rendered on their home TV screens) says:
go and kill them infidels!!
go and git dem terrorists!

hmm, i have this feeling i should be linking this back to a point i made in an earlier paragraph... hmm... yes... the link... something vague... i see a flowchart:

western values --> being educated and not stupid --> usa not being one to talk.

usa is quite far from the freest nation on earth, that would be something more like some european country like Norway, Sweden, or perhaps Denmark.

so if western values are all about freedom (yes yes i can hear you americans itching to scream FREEDOM!!@@!#111one!1, the word is like coccaine to your souls hey)
then why isn't america POINTING TO the most free nations on earth, and saying "well... freedom is what it's all about, and since we now admit that we suck in that department, you guys should all try to be free like Sweden over there, they rock at freedom."
afterall, you want the best mentor you can right? you want these "western values" to be percieved in their best light, so you use the best example.

fiddlesticks i fergot, again. curse this human brain.
what were "western values" again?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:49 am

Sex, Drugs and Rock 'N Roll?

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:27 am

Roid, "freedom" isn't about legalizing drugs/prostitution/whatever, along the lines of a country like the Netherlands. Freedom isn't about being able to do whatever you want. If that was true, then half of the world would most likely murder the other half

. Freedom is something more. It's the ability to freely choose your own state of life. It's about the ability to have an elected government that represents and serves the people, not the other way around. It's about the ability to make something of yourself and improve your situation. That's why millions upon millions have immigrated to America since its foundation, because in no other country do people have more freedom to make a better life for themselves and their families. Our nation was the first in the world with a written Constitution, the first with a delineated Bill of Rights that protected its citizens from an overambitious government. Our nation works harder than the rest of the world combined to aid other nations that have not realized this dream of freedom. America was founded on freedom, the freedom to create a form of government "of the people, by the people, and for the people." Sure, America is far from perfect, and we have rarely fulfilled this ideal to the best of our potential, but we keep trying and trying, which is more than I can say about much of the rest of the world. This is why I love America, and this is why I think America is the best nation on this planet, save none. I would never want to live anywhere else; I'm not even interested in going somewhere else to visit. To me, this is the best life.

P.S. By the way, roid, don't buy into that "evil-dictator-Bush-who-erodes-the-Bill-of-Rights" bull**** that ultra-left-wingers love throwing around. It's a bunch of hooey. You want to see a real oppressive country? Look at Iran or North Korea. You want real examples of fascism/absolute power? Try Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. I don't know where you get the idea of America as "oppressive;" I have lived here all my life, and there hasn't been a day in which I have felt oppressed by any level of government. Remember, a more socially conservative set of laws does not equate to fascism; it equates to trying to make a more decent society. If the rest of the world were the same, things would be much better.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:47 am

roid, you're wrong.

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:50 am

Top Gun wrote:Roid, "freedom" isn't about legalizing drugs/prostitution/whatever, along the lines of a country like the Netherlands. Freedom isn't about being able to do whatever you want. If that was true, then half of the world would most likely murder the other half

you are describing individual freedom, what i'm talking about is collective freedom.
you know, where you can do anything you want as long as it doesn't encroach on someone elses inherit freedom.

freedom IS about legalising drugs/prostitution/whatever. these things do not encroach apon anyone's freedoms, so banning them would mean you are ENCROACHING ON FREEDOMS.

look, if it were a scale: on side 1 there is a nation with few laws stopping people from doing what they want. on side 2 is a nation with MANY laws stopping people doing what they want.

which nation is more free? it's blatently obvious.

It's not rocket science, the influence is DIRECT. The more laws a nation has stopping inherit freedoms of it's citizens. the less free that nation is.

Freedom is something more. It's the ability to freely choose your own state of life.

true, as long as your state of life doesn't encroach on other peoples' freedoms.

It's about the ability to have an elected government that represents and serves the people, not the other way around.

a government, relatively weak compared to it's citizens, makes for a more free nation, yes. it's not the definition of freedom, but it's MORE free than having a strong government, yes.

It's about the ability to make something of yourself and improve your situation. That's why millions upon millions have immigrated to America since its foundation, because in no other country do people have more freedom to make a better life for themselves and their families.

ok you are not decribing freedom anymore. You are describing PROSPERITY, a function of SOCIETY. it's not freedom, don't label it as such.

Our nation was the first in the world with a written Constitution, the first with a delineated Bill of Rights that protected its citizens from an overambitious government. Our nation works harder than the rest of the world combined to aid other nations that have not realized this dream of freedom. America was founded on freedom, the freedom to create a form of government "of the people, by the people, and for the people." Sure, America is far from perfect, and we have rarely fulfilled this ideal to the best of our potential, but we keep trying and trying, which is more than I can say about much of the rest of the world.

really? what about what i said about other more free nations. they are the ones whom are TRUTHFULLY trying to fulfil the ideal of freedom as much as they can.
is america trying as hard? hahahaha. no. america does not come close.

america may have an idealistic history. and for that the nation deserves credit. but that time is long gone, it's a far cry from what america is right now, the 1st world nation with the LEAST freedoms.

This is why I love America, and this is why I think America is the best nation on this planet, save none. I would never want to live anywhere else; I'm not even interested in going somewhere else to visit. To me, this is the best life.

what are your thoughts please on the more free nations out there. like the ones in europe. if they are freer in everyway than america, then why don't you love them more than america?
it's because your definition of "freedom" is skewed, it's tainted, it's non factual.
you think that Freedom IS the usa. that's how simple it is, USA is your definition of the USA, and viceversa.
anything that the USA does, will become your new definition of what "Freedom" is.

eg: australia isn't as free as usa. because we arn't as much like usa as usa is.

it's kindof like the definition of Beauty, or perhaps good food.
you may define all Food as a ratio comparison to your mother's cooking.
unfortunately, because we love our mother's cooking so much, this does not allow for you to be able to catagorise something as being BETTER than your mother's cooking.

so how the hell do you catagorise something that is BETTER than your mother's cooking? do you lie and catagorise it as WORSE?

P.S. By the way, roid, don't buy into that "evil-dictator-Bush-who-erodes-the-Bill-of-Rights" bull**** that ultra-left-wingers love throwing around. It's a bunch of hooey. You want to see a real oppressive country? Look at Iran or North Korea. You want real examples of fascism/absolute power? Try Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia.

and if you want to see a REAL free country, don't look at america.

I don't know where you get the idea of America as "oppressive;" I have lived here all my life, and there hasn't been a day in which I have felt oppressed by any level of government. Remember, a more socially conservative set of laws does not equate to fascism; it equates to trying to make a more decent society. If the rest of the world were the same, things would be much better.

actually, that's exactly what Fascism strives for: trying to make a better society.
the problem being that they strive for this perfect SOCIETY so much, that they poop all over INDIVIDUALS. it's when the wellbeing of SOCIETY is deemed more important than the wellbeing of the PEOPLE that make it up.

eg: laws stopping prostitution (because it's deemed bad for society). that's fascism.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:11 am

Don't mistake capitalism for "western values".

Some western values are: being allowed to practice whichever religion you want, being allowed to vote and effect your government, being allowed to raise your children in a world that is safe for them, being allowed to make your own decisions in life (even if they are horrible mistakes), etc.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:21 am

Read.

roid is just looking at the world thru rose-coloured glasses.

Freedoms are not wholy free, but have societal consequences, costs(and not soley monetary costs) and individual responsibilities to the rest of society.

Roid is ignoring that, or is unaware of it. Its easy to say activity x has no impact on others, and provide ample proof of the positivies of it. But talk to a former Addicts, Prosititutes, Dealers, and Johns, and ask them if their activities only affected themselves and no one else.

Freedom is the ability to realise the consequences, costs and responsibilities on your own, and not get sidetracked by the shiny pleasures on the way, or have someone else pull the wool over your eyes.

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:35 am

if you were to talk to former dealer/addict/prosts you may see that the serious problems they had were not as a result of the lifestyle they lead, but as a result of the lifestyle they lead being illegal.

the laws are what causes the problems. most problems in these areas are caused by oppressive laws forcing the activities underground. and the denial of support networks that is caused by it.

tobacco causes problems (mostly health, some social). can you tell me how many more problems it would cause society if it were illegal?

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:03 am

roid wrote:if you were to talk to former dealer/addict/prosts you may see that the serious problems they had were not as a result of the lifestyle they lead, but as a result of the lifestyle they lead being illegal.

Is this a thread about the legalization of stuff, or is it about freedom?

the two are not the same thing.

There is no such thing as consquence/guilt-free freedom roid.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:38 am

"Freedom isn't about being able to do whatever you want"

I don't know what is "about" but I do know freedom is technically the ability to do whatever you want.

Of coure, the argument back to me is well, you can't yell fire in a theatre or smoke weed.

That's fine. Just please, don't call yourself free. You're not. This is freedom, but with rules. We both agree we need *some* rules, like we can't kill each other. But we have some protect you from yourself laws that have no place here.

Psychedelics have been used in sacred rituals for thousands of years. The opium poppy is oldest pain killer. Seatbelt laws force you to wear a seatbelt.

These are "protect you from yourself" laws. They are awful. Smoking tobacco arguably is a vastly greater public health (read:cost) drain than any of the drugs I mentioned. So I don't buy the "yeah but you are hurting others" argument against other drugs, while we do nothing about smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol.

I think it's the seatbelt law that pisses me off the most. Maybe for people under 18 so you are forced to be a responsible parent. I mean, I wear a seatbelt--this is a principle thing. Why on earth can I get fined for endangering myself? Next thing you know I could be fined for rock climbing or bungee jumping.

A free society shouldn't need to protect you from yourself. It should protect you from hurting others, but people hurt others accidentally from auto accidents every year just as there are unintended consequences of drug use. And we drop billions a year to incarcerate and fight a drug war which could instead be spent on public health care.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:00 pm

Birds,

hasn't anyone told you? Drugs are bad.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:09 pm

The seatbelt bungee fing.

Sh1t loads of people ride in cars, and injuries caused from not having seatbelt on costs boatloads of dosh. But you probably knew that.

Bungee jumping involves a lot less people and if theres a c0ck up you just need a wooden box. But you probably knew that.

Freedom is getting over the teenage idealistic rhetoric stage and just getting on with yer life before you pop yer clogs.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:24 pm

Freedom is anarchy, so in that sense, no, we're not free.
But in the arena of freedom to improve your quality of life ie; level of education, job, religion, politics, association with others, all the protection under the Bill of Rights....well, we've got a lot going for us.

Just check the immigration patterns of countries around the globe since the formation of this country and you'll see a pretty impressive pattern.

Unless of course you think people tend to run away from freedom in search of oppression

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:25 pm

I get a kick out of it when people cherry pick a few issues and conclude that freedom in the U.S. is an illusion. Compare and contrast the U.S. with Saudi Arabia if you fail to see what's at issue. With all due respect to the "do whatever you want" concept, having freedom doesn't inherently mean you throw social responsibility out the window. And if you're arguing for 100% freedom, without rule of law, then you're babbling nonsense.

that would be something more like some european country like Norway, Sweden, or perhaps Denmark.

I did a quick search for prostitution in Sweden and found this (which is rather amusing):

--------
Ever since Sweden adopted a law on January 1, 1999 that criminalised the purchase, but not the sale, of sexual services, street prostitution in Stockholm has dropped by more than two-thirds, said Ann Wilkens, of the city's social services. Link
--------

So, it's legal to prostitue yourself, but illegal to acquire the services of a prostitute. Heh, I think their saying it's legal to masturbate and pay yourself for it. Or maybe you receive a monthly government stipend.

EDIT: It's also interesting to note that in Norway and Sweden men are "free" to enjoy mandatory military service.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:06 pm

Government stipend for whacking off? Hot damn I'd be rich by now.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:39 pm

Sounds like you ignored my point about smoking, flabby. Far more costly than auto accidents. Very inconsistent.

Nobody is saying you get 100% absolute freedom without social responsibility.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:00 pm

Roid also doesn't understand that rights do vary by state... for example here in NY teenagers can smoke. It's just that nobody can sell them to anyone under 18. In Maryland teens can't even have tobacco products on their person.

Another case in point: the state of Montana had no speed limit until recently. Why? Because the people there felt no need for one, so they were encouraged to use their best judgment. It's a freedom with responsibilities.

Call me a "states rights neo-con parroting freedomwhoring oppressor", but even though laws can be restrictive, I think that localized goverment one of the greatest things about this country. Many of the laws vary in different places, thus allowing people to make choices for themselves. These choices were made by people in a community, and I'm free to pack up and move elsewhere if I don't like them. To me, that's one American freedom that I don't see much elsewhere.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:03 pm

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:30 pm

Birdseye wrote:Sounds like you ignored my point about smoking, flabby.

I must confess i skimmed a bit 'cause i was on me way out, i'm back now but a bit half cut to reply....so i'll be off to bed then.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:34 pm

There are multiple questions in play here:

1) What are "western values"?
2) What is "freedom"?
3) Is the US the "most free" nation in the world?
4) Why are cigarettes legal but other stuff is not?

Let me try to answer each of these:

1) "Western values" is a catchphrase people use in order to save themselves the trouble of listing off some of the main things we in the West consider important, such as the ability of ALL people (of any religion, gender, skin color, sexual orientation, economic status at birth, etc.) to vote, own property, get a basic education, choose who to work for, choose what to do with their free time, choose who to marry, etc. More accurately, the values are "gender and racial equality", "freedom of religion", "universal education", etc. and those values lead to us giving ALL people the aforementioned rights/abilities.

2) The above is also usually what Americans mean when they talk about "freedom" -- they mean you're not somebody else's property, you're not forced to marry someone you don't want to, you're not a slave, etc.

The dictionary gives us lots of definitions for "freedom", such as (paraphrased):
- completely unrestrained
- liberty from slavery or oppression
- the ability to exercise choice
- unrestricted use or access

roid says it's the first of these, while the common American political usage is the second. (I should note: roid, you were wrong to call TG's definition "skewed", "not factual", etc.)

In any case... this makes the next answer pretty simple:

3) Depending on which definition of "freedom" you use -- as there are many appropriate ones -- the US may, or may not, be the most free nation in the world.

If you consider freedom to be the ability to hire a prostitute, then the US outside of Nevada is not free. If you consider freedom to be the ability for a poor person to get really stinkin' rich, the US is the most free nation in the world -- only here can a poor black boy grow up to be a rich white woman (OW!).

I'd say, on average, all the "free" nations of the world have about the same level of freedom, just in different ways. In Denmark, you have more freedom to go to prostitutes, but a heavier tax burden, than the US.

So really, the answer to the question is: which of the freedoms do you think are most important?

4) I wish I knew why cigarettes are still legal. Ugh. With what they do to public health -- and my personal health if you smoke them near me -- they should, at the very least, be heavily restricted.

As for wearing your seatbelt: hang out with some EMT's for a while, and ask them what they think about seatbelts. In particular, ask them if there's any harm to THEM if you don't wear your seatbelt. If they've cleaned up a few no-seatbelt crash scenes, chances are, they've suffered from the sight.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:47 pm

Immigration patterns show that most people that wish to immigrate go to where most of the money is. The average person equates "freedom" with having lots of money. The U.S. is the wealthiest country in the world bar none. So that is where the people go. One freedom people in the U.S. have for sure is the freedom to make money. Not many laws restrict that one and other freedoms sometimes take a back seat to it.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:58 pm

The US may have the most total wealth, but per capita other countries are more wealthy. It depends on what you view as wealth.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:16 pm

What freedom means to me is the ability to spend the larger portion of my paycheck, to see that the kiddies can wear their religious ensignia to school, to watch whatever TV news network I choose, and to play Wolfenstein-series PC games.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:17 pm

There aren't very many countries that have higher per capita income than the US - Luxembourg, Norway, and Switzerland are the ones usually listed. But along with income, you have to take into account stored wealth -- things like home ownership, savings accounts, retirement funds, etc. that can make a person "wealthy" even if their income is relatively small. And you have to take into account how much of that income actually gets into the hands of the workers.

I'd be curious to see how the US fares, compared to other countries, in terms of both income and stored wealth. I have a feeling that, on average, we have more "stuff" (larger houses, etc.) than most of those other countries. I think that's one of the big attractions of this country -- so many of us have our own houses and cars, and a lot of people want that.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:40 pm

Ha Haâ?¦.

People that use the word fascist in regards to the US need some history lessonsâ?¦.

That word seems to be a catch phrase for anything people disagree withâ?¦

Get a new term losersâ?¦

Now to answer your questionâ?¦

Freedoms
Liberties
Education
Truth
Good standards of living
Compassion
Charity
Pursuit of happiness
Fairness
Justice
Health
Democracy

And the list goes on and onâ?¦..

Edit: For Birds, BTW Driving is a privilege and not a â??rightâ?

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:01 pm

Lothar wrote:4) I wish I knew why cigarettes are still legal. Ugh. With what they do to public health -- and my personal health if you smoke them near me -- they should, at the very least, be heavily restricted.

They're legal because they're taxed to hell. Case in point: it's about $2.50 to $3 a pack for Marlboros in North Carolina. It's $5 where I live, and upwards of $7 in Manhattan. The base price doesn't change, it's all the taxes.

If you don't want me to smoke near you or in your house I won't. I quite honestly would prefer to end my life a half-decade early.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:19 pm

They are still legal because the tabacco comps have deep pockets with lobbyists in them.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:52 am

I love it when posters debate the freedoms of neighbouring countries without actually having resided in them

Roid, have you lived in the USA? .. No?

What about the rest of you Mofoâ??s? Lived anywhere other than USA?

Ignorance is bliss

roid · Post by **roid** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:33 am

Dedman wrote:Birds,

hasn't anyone told you? Drugs are bad.

although you may be joking. it seems that that is actually all the sentiment some ppl seem to need to advocate banning something.

the original bans were NOTHING BUT "havn't you heard?"s going in circles, all rumour, there was no substance.
strange but true.

this is why we have to be so extremely careful about what laws are made. you can't just go about making laws against things willy-nilly. isn't freedom against oppression the most important thing?

btw, those european countrys i mentioned i just grabbed off the top of my head. although i didn't mention it, 'The Netherlands / Holland' was definitely one i should have mentioned.

land of the free.

XeonJr if your special powers of travels have blessed you with an elitely superior viewpoint: lets hear it.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:22 pm

XeonJr wrote:What about the rest of you Mofoâ??s? Lived anywhere other than USA?

Ignorance is bliss

Let's see...a thread started by an australian telling us americans how we live up here. Another australian telling us we're ignorant because we don't live in other places....

Maybe the Dingo ate your logic.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:57 pm

I would Roid, except I would only be confirming what you have already said, for the most part

Iâ??d still like to see more of a factual base (first hand experience) for your arguments before you engage in stirring this pot.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:43 pm

Laughing my A$$ off at Wills last post. That's classic dude.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:14 pm

I got 20 bucks for every Freedom/Liberty that exists in Europe that we donâ??t have here.

And to name a couple we have that they donâ??tâ?¦

Right to bear arms (most of Europe)
Innocent till proven guilty (France)

I do have to plead Ignorance to never having traveled abroad, but I do consider myself pretty well informedâ?¦

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:42 pm

You forgot:
Right to not wear a seatbelt
Right to do any drug of choice
Right to be naked in public (If you can't do that, are you really free?)

Oh wait, you can't do those things in america but you can in some places in europe. Oops...

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:46 pm

Why would you need a seatbelt in a car where you need to use a shoehorn to get intoâ?¦:)

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:47 pm

Okay, let's compare, shall we?

Right to bear arms... already been covered. Many people think it's legitimate. You might not, that's your prerogative.

Innocent until Proven Guilty... kind of accepted as common sense.

VERSUS

Right not to wear a seatbelt... so that everyone's insurance rates go sky-high when you get in a crash? That's utter irresponsibility, not a "right".

Right to do any drug of choice... *sigh* we've covered this one too. 13 year old heroin addicts don't paint a pretty picutre.

Right to be naked in public... how about my right to NOT see you naked in public? They're called "private parts" for a reason. Ever wonder why it's a crime for men to expose themselves to little boys and/or girls? If so, then seek clinical help.

In short, I call "straw man".

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:25 pm

I call projection

The strawman argument is severely being abused. The call of strawman is starting to become a strawman in of itself.

It's not versus, I'd rather add them together. Take good from europe, add to america.

You say 13 year old heroin addicts, there are also 13 year old smokers and alcoholics. 13 year olds having babies all over america.

Hey, keep wasting billions on controlling pot every year DC. Not like we couldn't spend the money on something useful or anything.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Not every drug is pot. You can't drag the heroin in with the pot. I will argue that pot isn't as inherently damaging as heroin, coke, or anything else of the nature.

Also, 13 year olds having kids is an example of why there are laws against kids having sex. And I'm aware that sometimes people get raped.

I still don't see you defending the seatbelts or the nakedness.

I therefore don't believe that your list is the "good from europe".

[edit]Jesus christ where did I pick up the sentence-per-paragraph bug?[/edit]

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:50 pm

No, not every drug is pot.

But I believe we are discussing freedom. Illegal drugs = less freedom

Being naked doesn't hurt anyone, not wearing a seatbelt only hurts yourself.

Maybe we should ban rock climbing, because someone could slip and their family would be adversely affected.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:55 pm

Maybe we should just ban stupidityâ?¦that will take care of everythingâ?¦:)

Birdsâ?¦
If you preach ultimate freedom, then you should have no problem if someone walks up to you and smacks you in the face for being such a putzâ?¦:)