Put Up or Shut Up

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:51 pm

I swear to gwad, the next person that I hear whining about â??Jobsâ?

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:18 pm

I agree with you spidey. American capitalism has shot itself in the foot enough to almost be without toes. We need to start placing a higher value on that "american-made" tag.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:32 pm

Good luck trying to convince the average consumer to buy more expensice items for the good of some shmuck on the other side of the country.

Like it or not, the onance(sp?) is on the retailers to jack up prices in concert, so consumer spending patterns don't change too drastically, but you'll have to deal with nasty regulations then.

Its probably fair to say, that for all the unemployed, American companies have made more than enough profit per yer to give those unemployed a nice lifestyle without disapointing the shareholders.

its time to accept the fact that some people thru the average lifetime may never have jobs, and move to the leasure state - have the profits of corporations pay for their lively hood.

Zoop! · Post by **Zoop!** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:06 pm

If the jobs were not being outsourced outside national borders, they would be outsourced to machines or robots. It's kind of like the Industrial Revolutions. Machines were more efficient and more productive than a team of people, so the machine won and prices fell. Yes, people are going to be unemployed, but then the labor demands start to shift to other sectors. Wouldn't that explain why countries like the United States are becoming more service-oriented economies rather than industry-oriented economies?

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:24 pm

Sooo Spidey.. um, ya got sumthin on yur mind there dude?

I can only echo you. I see a lot of this very thing where I work. "We" are looking at "out sourcing" certain product that we have a hard time competing with our costs vs what our destributors "Expect" for price. It becomes a brutal bargaining chip with big accounts like Johnson Controls and Seimens. >:
As it is, we have a $10/hr wage cap on the production floor. .. and GEE! we seem to be able to operate at around 60% GPM! (Gross Profit Margin) O_o .. yea.. 60%

Most busnesses do well and consider themselves sucessful at 40 to 45%.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:05 am

Iâ??d say your partly right, Spidey. It is about Greed but not consumer greed. With the birth of the Internet, corporations can shift their wealth freely. They no longer require a residing country. Corporations will move into countries where the labor/taxes and overhead are lowest. This boosts profit margins and appeases its investors.

In time the offshore jobs will shift back to the US when labor and manufacturing costs are more competitive than the current Asian market.

More money is not the answer. A poor/middle class person will still be a poor/middle class spender no matter how much they are earning. The key to wealth is about differentiating assets from liabilities. An asset is something that creates money for you. A liability is something that takes money from you.

Some examples of assets are: - Rental properties, stocks, bonds, a business.. Etc

Some examples of liabilities are: - Your house (even if you own it!), car, gifts, taxes, living expenses.. Etc

If you spend your time acquiring assets over liabilities money can be removed from your lifeâ??s equation.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:18 am

Btw.. are you a small business owner, Spidey?

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:45 am

Personally I'd like to see an end to the rampant consumer culture that drives corporations to go to asia for their labor, and I'd like to see a restoration of the american manufacturing base that built sh*t that was designed to last 20-30 years. Just look at cars. Several decades ago you could buy a car and expect it to last you a LONG time, and it only cost a fraction of the price (even when accounting for inflation!). Now you buy a $30,000 car and you know damn well its gonna develop major problems within the next 5 years. So yeah, I see two major problems: the buy buy buy consumerism, and the planned obsolence that feeds it.

And you damn right I'd pay $30 for a T-Shirt if I knew it was gonna last me until 2030, or $500 for a 15 inch TV if I knew I was still gonna be using it in 2025. Durability over time means good value for your money.

How we get back to building quality goods in this country is another matter entirely.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:33 am

The reason that companies get products from other countries is to protect upper management salaries. When a single manager gets a Christmas bonus of some 30 million dollars...well..and you're complaining about the consumer? The greed is corporate. Walmart owners are worth 40 billion dollars..each, or something. Dont't you think they could pay employees a little more than minimum wage?

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:17 am

If you can't find a job in the US right now there are only two reasons why. 1) You don't want one or 2) you have priced yourself out of that market.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:01 pm

Hey spidey, take an economics class.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:39 pm

What Birds said.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:03 pm

Testiculese wrote:The reason that companies get products from other countries is to protect upper management salaries.

Well, in a round a bout way maybe. They don't want to lose their customers to their competition so they seek to lower prices by lowering expenses. If you are good at making the store profitable you protect your salary.

If WalMart tried to 1) not buy overseas and 2) keep their prices as low as a competitor who *did* buy cheaper product overseas they would have to lose a lot of money/profit probably a lot more money than their management salaries costs them. Maybe even go from making money to losing money.

It's the consumer looking for a deal that drives the market price down. You would have to put tariffs on imports to equalize the cost of the goods, import versus domestic.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:16 pm

If prices go down then you don't *NEED* to make as much money. There's nothing wrong with shipping jobs over seas. We might all end up with lower paying jobs, but stuff is cheaper so it all balances out in the end.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:24 pm

Suncho wrote:If prices go down then you don't *NEED* to make as much money. There's nothing wrong with shipping jobs over seas. We might all end up with lower paying jobs, but stuff is cheaper so it all balances out in the end.

it only wholly balances out if other countries outsource their labour to americans.

American labour is too expensive for that to happen, so it don't work out.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:16 pm

Will Robinson wrote: It's the consumer looking for a deal that drives the market price down. You would have to put tariffs on imports to equalize the cost of the goods, import versus domestic.

Do you honestly think a Corporation will shift its industry base back to America if people started paying more for their products? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds at a corporate level?

The more the end consumer pays for a product the better it is for the company. While keeping their labor in lower taxed/labor wage environments, they stand to reap far greater rewards than they currently are receiving selling at cheaper rates.

Introducing tariffs is not the answer either. Increasing tariffs stands to destroy global markets and further devalue the American dollar. You think your paying high fuel prices now? Imagine paying out $500 per barrel of oil due the US dollar no longer having trade value.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:21 pm

XeonJr wrote:Do you honestly think a Corporation will shift its industry base back to America if people started paying more for their products?

Do you honestly think that's what I said?
Have XeonSr get his money back from your reading classes.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:24 pm

Will said make it expensive for companys to buy from overseas.

thats what tarrifs do.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:24 pm

Yes Actually.. the first part of your posting I agreed with. Then you closed with this..

It's the consumer looking for a deal that drives the market price down.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:36 pm

XeonJr wrote:Yes Actually.. the first part of your posting I agreed with. Then you closed with this..

It's the consumer looking for a deal that drives the market price down.

You have to read it in *context*!
I was responding to Testi's assertion:
The reason that companies get products from other countries is to protect upper management salaries.-Testi

I was merely pointing out to Testi that the purchase of imports is *not* to protect salaries per say, but to keep their costs down in a competitive market.
I'm not offering tariffs as a solution to anything, only pointing out that to get a WalMart to buy american you would have to make imports cost as much as american product that way they could buy american and not lose to a competitor that can afford to undercut their retail prices by buying the same product for resale cheaper overseas.
That's the only point about tariffs I stated, you tried to ascribe all sorts of meaning to my response and *that* is what sounds silly!

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:38 pm

I realize tariffs are designed to protect localized markets from global exporters, but it has to be in moderation. If tariffs are increased to further combat the lost job market then global exporters will no longer be exporting to the United States. If your dollar is no longer being traded then its value is going to decrease. I am sure I donâ??t have to further spell out the effects a decreased dollar value will have on the American public.
Cough* Thailand *Cough

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:39 pm

Thx Will, we are now on the same page

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:41 pm

IIRC the U.S. is still a net IMPORTER of jobs. The problem is that most of the jobs that are being exported are the low skill ones. This means that if you had one of them you either have to reeducate your self or you are screwed.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:50 pm

Holy Shitâ?¦great input without any flamesâ?¦oops I did see oneâ?¦

Xeonâ?¦Yes I am self Employed, I run a small printing shopâ?¦I have many bosses and their all cheapskatesâ?¦.J/K

Birdsâ?¦ Are you referring to a left wing eco class or a right wing classâ?¦:)â?¦any ways I learned Economics in the real world of dog eat dogâ?¦

Quote:
If prices go down then you don't *NEED* to make as much money. There's nothing wrong with shipping jobs over seas. We might all end up with lower paying jobs, but stuff is cheaper so it all balances out in the end.

No the problem with that is most cost of living is going to housing, energy costs and alike and I doubt that that going to even it self out.

Thanks again for the great repliesâ?¦I wont comment any further because I think I got it all out in my first post, but I will still answer any more questions or comments directed at meâ?¦

Spideyâ?¦

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:51 pm

I'm versed in anything from Keynes & Smith to Marx, from Freedman to Krugman. I've also read Laffer.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:56 pm

The real world is different then books.

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:05 pm

Because people who write books live in worlds other then the real one.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:29 pm

I don't see the export of low skill jobs being the major problem for a country provided they export an equal value of goods that require high skill. Those employed as high skill workers are normally highly paid and will be able to purchase services, services are normaly low skilled labour that cannot be outsources due to the close physical relationship to the consumer. You can't buy a slurpee over the internet.
The problem with the situation in the U.S. is the trade deficit. You guys buy a HUGE amount more that you sell and one day it will bite you in the butt. To service this huge trade deficit you have to print money (not in physical terms in the modern age). Put too much U.S. money and it's value drops. Then comes the $500 dollar barrel of oil and the economic disaster that entails. Of course it is a cycle economy collapses=stop consuming=less imports.
It's all a house of cards.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:04 am

Flip: to convince consumers to pay higher prices, the solution can be boiled down to two words: Fair trade.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:57 am

I also run my own business. You're out of excuses.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:42 am

Before you start talking what is/what isn't you need to understand the source, then you can gain an understanding to a solution. Know your economic history as to what lead to and is still influencing the direction this is going. You are are looking around pointing fingers with blinders on.... at the trickle down results, but not the actual problem .

It as obvious as the nose on your face, but WE ALL ignore it and accept it as commonplace in life today.

Everyday you are told you need it, you want it, and what you have to do to get it. the answer to this is so easy.....

WAKE UP

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:50 am

Are you in the photographic business, Spidey ?

The photographic industry has come under heavy fire in the last couple of years. Digital technological advance have rendered a lot of the photographic labs obsolete with customers now having the ability to print their pictures from home. Professional studios are also taking advantage of this market shift and are printing their portraits internally. They no longer require labs to process and handle their rolls of film.

Corporations such as Wal-Mart are also bankrupting smaller business with their lower priced 1-hour labs. While there is nothing you can do that will change this market shift you can, however play the game smarter

Speak to your accountant about legitimately splitting up your business to reduce tax. If your business premises is under lease you may be able to separate your business into a 2nd that rents to your lab. This has the effect of minimizing your earned income which as you know is taxed highest

Your accountant should be able to better verse you on this.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:08 pm

Birdsâ?¦then you should understand how important the â??consumerâ?

Clayman · Post by **Clayman** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:38 am

Most T-Shirts were made right here in America at a time not to long agoâ?¦but nooooâ?¦2.50 was to much to pay for a T-Shirtâ?¦the result, most Tees are now made south of the border, and ok so now Tees only cost about a buck, And what the hell if we lost over 150 thousand good paying jobs, you still have cheap Tees,â?¦right? (price refers to white Tees).

The problem Spidey is that Many industries could claim similar examples, that they should be paid more for their work. The price of the product however, is not determined by the cost of producing it, but by the price that the consumer is willing to pay for it. If someone else can sell it for less, the consumer is most likely to buy from them. You're not talking about a mere $2.50 for one t-shirt, it's every industry wanting a higher price for their products, and that amounts to a hell of a lot more than $2.50.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:44 am

Simple supply and demand. Company in Mexico builds cheaper, equivelent T shirt. Consumer buys that.

*shrug*

That's capitalism. Don't like it, spidey?

I think what some people (well at least me) complain about is corporate welfare. Giving a failing major corporate company money to survive.