Dancing in the streets

Defender · Post by **Defender** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:10 pm

The issues in this thread reminds me of Black Hawk Down.
The scene when the 2nd chopper goes down and there's this mob that just starts beating the crap out of the soldiers in the chopper, stealing their clothes and hitting them with rocks.

Arol · Post by **Arol** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:57 pm

kufyit wrote:Okay, so some nutbags call for genocide, that means that we should respond with genocide? Don't think so.

Tell me kufy is that you donâ??t understand, or is that you want to understand?
Canâ??t you get it through that self-opinionated head of yours that; yes this is an isolated reported incident, but that there are hundreds if not thousands of equally god-tripping Mullahs preaching the same hate filled dogma to equally hate filled parishioners the world over?
They are the ones preaching and calling for genocide.
And these same parishioners have shown themselves more then willing to carry out their holy tasks!

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:12 pm

I know a few folks that spent some time over there with the most recent coming home in late March, they all tell pretty much the same story. The people are glad we're there, but it has disrupted their lives(besides the obvious) a great deal and many are pretty confused. All they've known is life under Saddam's direction and now there is no direction, something they're not used to.
They also complain of the American media being biased and airing mostly protests and the few people that are unhappy with our soldiers. Besides the heat, bugs and dusty conditions, this was their biggest complaint.

B-

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:41 pm

Birdseye wrote:So you read a couple of Iraqi blogs and now the overall sentiment is happy we're there?

No -- I read a couple of blogs and I know the overall sentiment there is as divided as the overall sentiment here.

Some people over there think the US can do no wrong.
Some people over there think the US can do no right.
Some people are glad we came but wish we'd hurry out.
Some people are glad we came and hope we stay a long time.
Some people are upset we came and want us out now.
Some people are upset we came but want us to stay the course.

Most people are glad Saddam is gone, glad for the rebuilding we're doing, and upset about the stuff that got blown up. A few would like Saddam back.

Most are happier with us now than they were 6 months ago. A few are not.

Since we've all heard plenty of negative quotes (say, from the soccer players) I like to balance it with some positive quotes, such as this one:

Omar from [url=http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com]Iraq The Model[/url], on September 15 2004, wrote:nothing will ever match what we felt when we saw the first missile strike Saddamâ??s palace.
After we started this blog, we had the chance to meet many Americans, both civilians and soldiers and we discovered the noble feelings and the warm wishes they have for Iraq and Iraqis and that made me believe more than ever that weâ??ve put our trust in the right place.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:03 pm

Thanks

Hostile · Post by **Hostile** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:19 pm

Zuruck wrote:i'm speechless.

Sorry for not contributing.....But that is impressive!!!

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:35 pm

A little pretext to my first reply:

Before 911 I was very sympathetic to the causes of the Arab population, even thru all the cruelty (terrorism) I was still an advocate for the Arabs.

Before 911 I had always been against our governments policies in the middle east which seemed to favor Israel, I was all for establishing a Palestinian homeland, and had sympathy for other Arab concerns.

Before 911 I supported the Arab owned business in my area. (Owned mostly by Palestinians)

Even after the US Cole attack I was still of the mindset that they canâ??t possibly reflect the beliefs of all Arabs.

And this is the most tragic part of the way I feel today.

I can pretty much pin it down to the Palestinians dancing in the streets after we were attacked. Something in me just snapped, something I pretty much have no control of, It was like my heart was ripped right out of my chest, and the feelings of betrayal were overwhelming. I actually cried a lot on that day, then the sadness turned to anger, then to hatred.

I never asked for, or wanted these feelings, and now I wont even go near an Arab owned business, my motto now is â??no money for terroristsâ?

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:47 pm

So after timothy mcveigh blew up the building in Oklahoma, did you start calling white people terrorists and only buy from asian, blacks, and white people?

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:16 pm

I'm pretty sure there weren't white people dancing on the streets after Oklahoma City.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:19 pm

What's wrong with that question?

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:40 pm

Spidey said:

I never asked for, or wanted these feelings, and now I wont even go near an Arab owned business, my motto now is â??no money for terrorists"

I don't remember Americans of Arab descent (spelling? haha) dancing the streets of new york.

By the way, get away from the gas pump because you're supporting arabs.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:48 pm

Lothar wrote:I'm pretty sure there weren't white people dancing on the streets after Oklahoma City.

That's the problem for a lot of us I think.
Until just a few days ago I hadn't seen any muslim orginazation go out of their way to denounce the terrorists.
I heard plenty of white americans do it for them. I remember reminding people not to stereotype them all into one group myself right after 9/11...

And now 3 years later I've learned that the imams and clerics and whatever you call them are, for the *most* part, still teaching hate or at the very least rationalizing the behavior as a result of western values interfering with their culture etc. Saying, in effect, that we brought it on ourselves.

Well go ahead, make that bed and we will lay you in it with dirt for a blanket.
As far as I'm concerned the onus is on the followers of the islamic faith to show us they have abandoned the hate because unlike the majority of white people who *don't* celebrate Timothy McVay, the majority of muslims *appear* to be supporters of the terrorists.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:58 pm

Well stated WRâ?¦

Birdsâ?¦

Still havenâ??t seen the flaw in your question?

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:21 pm

Ok so I went back and reread some of this threadâ?¦

And I want to clarify somethingâ?¦

Kufyitâ?¦

I never said Islamâ?¦I said â??Arabsâ?

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:34 pm

nope.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:36 pm

If you want to be technical, Arabs aren't a racial group. They're Semites, a group which includes Jews.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:38 pm

Okâ?¦Iâ??ll give you a hintâ?¦.

You use the same group of people as the â??terroristsâ?

kufyit · Post by **kufyit** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:42 pm

Well, Spidey, as I have done here in the past, I must apologize for my inflammatory post involving your picture and the subsequent reply of tell you to f*** off. It was uncalled for; a display of my common tendency to get angry over politics. I do apologize humbly.

However, I will not pretend to have changed my opinions. What you said was downright disgusting, and if ANYTHING on this board is deserving of cloaked and wanton deletion, it's posts like that. This is a public forum, hardly an appropriate place to extol the virtues (even if they are but fantasies) of mass-extermination. It's abhorred, dangerous, extremely disturbing.

I have a curiosity concerning you that I was about to address in another thread when I decided not to as it seemed too off-topic. Specifically, I am wonder how we get from:

Point A

[quote="Spidey"]If I could kill them allâ?¦â?¦.I would do it in a microsecond!

â?¦â?

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:46 am

Spidey, I have no predisposition to hate.

Nice try but my BS detector went off.

Also, if I had an arabic friend.. would you want to kill him because of who he is? Take into account he has lived here for years, has done no wrong to anyone, and is just as blown away by what happened?

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:37 am

Kill them all in a microsecond. Genocide. Simple as that.

I don't have to hear anymore, your argument about symantecs or your dodging of legitimate points, or the minute technicalities you point out of somebody else's post. You've already said how you feel. Its just as bad as the terrorist point of view. And as far as I'm concerned, there is no right in this situation.

MehYam · Post by **MehYam** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:15 pm

I've actually gotta defend Spidey a bit here. At least he's being honest (I assume he's not pulling an Andy Kaufman and flamebaiting everyone). My guess - only a guess, but one drawn from experience - is that for every person that says what Spidey does, there are another 10 who feel the same way but aren't brave enough to express it.

Warning - some 'new agey' s*** follows, but I think there's merit to it:

Spidey wrote:I can pretty much pin it down to the Palestinians dancing in the streets after we were attacked. Something in me just snapped, something I pretty much have no control of, It was like my heart was ripped right out of my chest, and the feelings of betrayal were overwhelming. I actually cried a lot on that day, then the sadness turned to anger, then to hatred.

...so this leads to the next step, which you haven't reached yet (you have to choose to get there). Just 'cause you feel something doesn't mean it's true. There are always at least two sides to any issue, and in reality things are always more complex than they appear. For instance, it was widely reported that the footage of dancing you're referring to came from stock footage before 9/11. Dunno if that's true - but it could be. You just don't know. You may have been influenced by false media.

Who knows how much other false media has swayed you (or me)? The point is, everyone chooses to see things that they want to see, so that they can believe things they want to. For example, you saw that footage, and processed it into a complex internal idea, very quickly. Chances are, you already had that idea long ago, you just found an excuse to latch onto it.

This is the only explanation I can think of for why two people as different as woodchip and myself can live on the same planet.

Life comes down to two choices: go with your gut feelings and risk being fooled, or be more thoughtful about things. It's really hard to not fall for the first choice (woodchip), but just being conscious that the choice exists makes a huge difference.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:54 pm

Life comes down to two choices: go with your gut feelings and risk being fooled, or be more thoughtful about things. It's really hard to not fall for the first choice (woodchip), but just being conscious that the choice exists makes a huge difference.

Things are the exact opposite for me, I'm usually right if I go with my gut feelings. Most information isn't even relevant, tends to complicate matters(in general, anyway)and clouds the issue(s). Black/White. Call me a simpleton if you wish.

BTW, was it a gut feeling to to place Woodchips name where you placed it, or, was it an example of of being more thoughtful?

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:10 pm

from my studys i can vouch for what Fusion Pimp says about gut feelings. from a mixture/interaction of born personality and things developed from circumstance; some types of ppl are predisposed to develop strong and trustworth gut feelings & intuition. while others distrust this in themselves and will prefer to only trust pure logic and facts.

just uh, thought i'd poke in with that. carry on

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:22 pm

Jingoism is nothing new. We certainly didn't differentiate between good japanese or bad japanese during WW2. We just wanted them all dead.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:23 pm

Spidey, I understand why you are so angry. But I think you are wrong. Abject hatred is never constructive and is akin to lust. .. not in a sexual way, but in the way that lust itself operates. It takes into itself and does not care about concequence. Nor is it ever completely satisfied. It will feed on itself long after "retribution" has been rationally attained.

You, an adult, are responcible for controlling your emotions and the decisions you make; for the emotions you choose to let control you. It's cool to vent here, that's what net forums are for, but don't let this rule your life.

Vent, examine, and continue. You are not "only and animal". We have choice and reason.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:39 pm

Kuyfitâ?¦Apology acceptedâ?¦

I always shoot from the hip and then have to explain laterâ?¦

Let me clarify thisâ?¦Thinking something and acting on it are two different things, so I can express the desire to kill someone but never act on itâ?¦this goes to Dupersâ??s point.

I think we all have thoughts that we would rather not have, and the difference between morality and immorality is what we do with them. I have never acted on my thoughts other then the occasional rant, and boycotting Arab businesses.(and as far as I know this is a perfectly legitimate political action)

Sure hatred is bad, but acting on it is far worseâ?¦

Hatred in and of it self is prolly a healthy thing, as long as you control it and not act on it.

BTW Kuyfits â??POINT Bâ?