Homeschooling...

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:39 pm

JMEaT wrote:I think home schooled children would tend to be a bit more mature for their ages.

Acutally, I think it is that public school children these days are less mature then they should be, which is why homeschoolers would seem more mature.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:55 pm

Heh

Obviously SA you prove my point. I have better things to do with my time than answer your inane PM justifying my opinion. I don't have to justify my opnion. The fact that you're whining about it in a public forum justifies it for me.

As far as the dude who started this post, all those supposed skills that you possess aren't worth a drop of sweat from my left nut to me. The fact remains that all the homeschool kids I've met are totally useless socially. They're booksmart, and that's great if you want to spend your life behind a desk crunching numbers for a big corporation that'll f*ck you over as soon as look at you.

The fact that you are whining about my post proves my point.

And benching 200 is great...if you're 14.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:51 pm

Knights in the middle ages said the same thing about "scribes" Beo. You notice knights don't exist anymore, whereas secretaries do? People through the ages have looked down on "book learning." You notice they tend to be the most illiterate of the bunch.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:25 pm

I never said I don't respect a knowledgable person. That's why I get a 3.8 or higher in school. I just said that a person with nothing but book knowledge is an unbalanced person who will not lead a fulfilling life.

Jesus Freak · Post by **Jesus Freak** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:12 pm

Just saw this thread, and it stuck out to me, so here we go...

I went to a school for K4 and K5. Didn't really learn much, but that's expected for the age. Then I was homeschooled 1st-8th grade, with 7th being the only exception(Grace Brethren Christian School). I was homeschooled because 1. I got lots of individual attention 2. curriculum 3. my local public school was 99% black(and I'm white) 4. more free time!!! 5. lots of activities 6. could be disciplined better.

I'm currently in 11th grade at public high school, and am currently taking Chamber Singers(madrigals, show choir), Spanish 3, AP Biology(2 periods), AP American History, AP English, and Precalculus. The reasons we switched to public high school was 1. the material was becoming too advanced for my Mom to teach well 2. I wanted to experience going to a public school.

I can tell u right now, I would not be as well-rounded, as well-behaved, as mature, as disciplined(I always do my work to the best of my ability), etc if I went to public school all those years. Not to mention I wouldn't be as big of a gamer and computer g33k(not to u all maybe, but to everyone that knows me, heh)

Clayman · Post by **Clayman** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:49 pm

Beo, the problem is that you're sterotyping homeschoolers. I could just as easily say all public schoolers are a bunch of bums with muscle instead of brain. There are truths in nearly every lie, but that doesn't make them the rule. I know plenty of "well-rounded" homeschoolers.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:39 am

it depends on the parents doing the home schooling i think. if you have parents who think you will worship satan, impregnate 100 women by the time you are 18, kill a couple cops and do a little raping and pillaging then homeschooling can really damage you. people, epsecially people in the later childhood stages, need to have friends and socialize with other humans outside of their relatives.

i know kids who never got to socialize with other kids their own age, weren't allowed to go catch a movie, couldnt leave the yard, their mom would run outside and drag them in whenever one of us felt bad and went to go see if they wanted to play, etc and they're all a bunch of depressed, whiny bitches. i cant blame them for it though. all they got to do was clean their room, watch PBS and that church channel, and look out the window at the other kids having fun outside. they're like caged animals at the zoo.

i also know homeschooled kids who are perfectly fine. my best friend was homeschooled up until 9th grade. he was allowed to come out and play ball with the rest of us, watch movies, hang out at my house, do whatever and have a normal social life. his mom homeschooled him because the schools out here suck, but she knew the value of a social life and didn't rob him of one.

on to the point. i think homeschooling should be a goverment controlled thing. if parents dont want to send kids to a public school and cant afford a private school, there should be teachers who are paid to teach at home. or perhaps some kind of program where kids in a city who want to be home schooled rotate going to each others houses for class and the teacher just goes to said house. that would eliminate the need for a teacher for every kid, and also get the kids who arent allowed to go to public school a chance to socialze with some other kids close to their age.

spending the first 18 years of your life with just your mom will make venturing out into the real world an incredible shock.

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:39 am

man, whatever kids had parents who wouldn't let them play with other kids in their yard? that's fucked up.

those kids need more than public education (just as an EXCUSE to get away from their oppressive homes), they need sane parents.

school is school
parents are parents.
they are seperate issues that can influence eachother, but this thread is about school. not being able to play in your yard is not the fault of homeschooling. a public school WOULD somewhat save these kids from having to deal with their otherwise horrible lives. but school is not supposed to be the answer to that.

kids who get all of their friends from school will probabaly grow into adults who get all of their friends from work.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:19 am

Wow, I cant believe I aggree with roid!

Kd527 · Post by **Kd527** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:40 pm

I've been homeschooled for several years and there's nothing wrong with it. There are plenty of homeschool groups that get together for the "social benifit". I think the education is probably better than what you get in public school. jus my 2 cents worth.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:33 am

I homeschool

Instig8 · Post by **Instig8** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:54 pm

Just to chime in... Mommy (dearest) schooled me at home for grades 5, 6 & 7. The end result of me being an internet bum isn't that bad, is it?

But seriously, the three years of homeschooling I received did me well... Considering mom has a degree in edu[ma]cation and dad is a DVM.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:54 pm

i just think homeschooling has too much potential to be exploited in a bad way. what is a kid gonna do when he gets older if he has a mom who lets him play video games all day and fills his answers in for him?

we aren't preparing our children for the real world and i think homeschooling isnt helping that. if you dont want to send a kid to a public school, whats wrong with a private or charter school?

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:41 am

what's wrong with them? Two words: Bling. Bling.

Yeah, I agree, homeschool has a lot of potential for abuse. That's something that needs dealt with. But overall, the homeschoolers I know turned out better than the public schoolers, and even the private schoolers. Homeschool has a lot of potential for abuse, but it also has the most potential.

One possibility to cut down the risk of "mommy fills in the answers" would be to have homeschoolers have to take standardized tests at a local public school or some other accredited institution (like a specialized testing facility) once per year. If they're not at least keeping up, they can no longer homeschool.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:38 am

Lothar wrote:One possibility to cut down the risk of "mommy fills in the answers" would be to have homeschoolers have to take standardized tests at a local public school or some other accredited institution (like a specialized testing facility) once per year. If they're not at least keeping up, they can no longer homeschool.

something like this is all im asking for. im not really concerned with what they do to ensure a child gets at least a halfway decent education, as long as they get on the right track to making sure that everyone has access to one. an education these days is infinitely more important than it ever was, and alot of kids arent getting it. i dont like having highschool kids as cashiers who cant even give me the right change back or figure out why i handed them a ten, a one and a quarter when it was $6.23. i mean, what does that say to you when you realize these people will be making very difficult choices in the very near future? its not that they annoy me, its that i fear for my kids and all my peers kids as well.

its not just homeschooling im not happy with, its all schooling. this just happens to be a thread concerning home schooling. i think all forms of schooling need a serious upgrade, for the record.

now if they would only give the public schools some damn money. our governor forfeited 61 million in 2002 because he failed to use education money on time and some other lucky states each got a percentage of it. i dunno what happaned last year, because after 2002 i was so disgusted that i completely stopped following it.

that actually was why i couldnt make califest that year, because my tuition went up 2 thousand dollars because that money never made it to them and i didnt have any extra money.

p.s. charters are like scholarships for k-12, so you do have to be gifted. but they arent for the people with said bling, just kids who want to be educated but arent being given a good fighting chance in their public schools

roid · Post by **roid** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:11 am

kurupt wrote:
Lothar wrote:One possibility to cut down the risk of "mommy fills in the answers" would be to have homeschoolers have to take standardized tests at a local public school or some other accredited institution (like a specialized testing facility) once per year. If they're not at least keeping up, they can no longer homeschool.
something like this is all im asking for.

afaik that's how it's done down here. a friend of mine is a JP and he is certified to handle the tests of some homeschool kids i know. i think he had to do a course or something, just some basic instruction on test supervising. also for large tests (once a year stuff i think) i think there is either an education department representative present, or perhaps the kids goto a special centralised testing facility.

what i remembered from the kids' explanations is that it's a pretty tight ship.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:48 am

The problem with tests is any test will attempt to define what a good education is. You all comment that public school kids these days are not getting a good education but how could that be if they are tested so often? Everyone wants tests on this and tests on that, few people seem to understand how completely pointless and irrelevant tests are. Sure a test can tell you how much static information from textbooks that someone has memorized, but it cant tell you what they will do with a ten, a one and a quarter when the item cost $6.23. (*hint, give him a five and two pennies). A test like you all want only shows you how good someone is at memorizing things, it does little or absolutely nothing to show you how well they can solve a problem by thinking, which is the most important part of an education. Sure the ability to recall static facts from your profession is a useful and important skill, but it is not even remotely close to a complete education.

Public schools teach kids what they need to pass the next test, and little else; this is why testing has destroyed education. Standardized tests lead to standardized kids, cooked, canned, labeled, stamped with a lot number, stuck in a cardboard box and then put on a shelf at wall-mart at a discount price. That is what public schools turn out, children as a mass produced commodity for sale in our great capitalist society. Most homeschoolers choose to homeschool because they care about their children enough to ensure that they have a good education rather then becoming another pasteurized canned head on the market.

roid · Post by **roid** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:07 am

huh? you are saying that in school you never had a maths test?
or are you saying that this "standardised testing" doesn't test maths?

(forgive me i am unfamilure with these "standardised tests". i'm not american)

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:02 am

Math tests generally do not require abstract thinking, it is mostly limited to strictly logical processing.

roid · Post by **roid** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:49 am

my (public school) maths tests were full of questions just like the one you put forward.

but i don't know what a penny is

(1 cent?)

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:17 am

roid wrote:my (public school) maths tests were full of questions just like the one you put forward.

but i don't know what a penny is (1 cent?)

Little copper thing, picture of Abe Lincoln. You get the idea

.

Edit: Click here. It's the small brown coin in the upper-right. And yes, it is worth a cent

.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:17 pm

Roid, did you read kurupts last post or just skim it?

Drakona · Post by **Drakona** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:18 pm

Krom wrote:Math tests generally do not require abstract thinking, it is mostly limited to strictly logical processing.

Heh, I'm not sure what you're taking as the difference between the two (if you ask me, logical processing is a pretty darn abstract form of thinking!), but I have had great experiences with even standardized math tests making me think abstractly. I took a math test in 10th grade that was all multiple choice. It was admittedly for a math contest, but it was nationally standardized, and my brain was a quivering bowl of jello afterward! Same thing with the analytic section of the GRE. Shoot, even down on a junior high level, some of those geometry problems (the ones that reappear on the SAT) require some abstract thought.

By contrast, making change when you're cashiering is simple and algorithmic. There's nothing abstract about doing it, aside from developing the skill yourself if nobody teaches you. I find it curious that you list that as an example of "solving a problem by thinking," a skill that's part of a "complete education" and that a test can't measure. The skill itself--making change--is not terribly critical math knowledge for most people, and if it was, it would be easy enough to test. And really, making change is awfully mindless--hardly what I'd put down as something people ought to study to develop abstract problem solving skills. Core math is one of the best things for that, if you ask me. Do some geometry or calculus, that'll work those abstract problem solving skills.

There are any number of things that test well. Simple skills you've studied--the ability to read, the ability to add. Analytic skills you've studied--the ability to correctly attack an algebra or geometry problem, or comprehend the point of an essay. Intrinsic skills--memory, 3d visualization. And then some things are hard to measure in a written, standardized test--nebulous skills like literary criticism, creative skills like composition, or physical skills like correctly giving CPR.

Though there are skills that standardized tests don't capture well, I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that they can only measure rote memorization and not real problem-solving. A well-written test--even if it's multiple choice and given across the nation--certainly can measure the many of sort of analytic abilities you're intended to learn at school.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:31 pm

Krom, I'd love to know how x - y (which can be represented with pebbles, hence the existence of the abacus) is more abstract than, say, integration.

I feel that the College Board is moving in the wrong direction by removing things like analogies and quantitative comparisons from the new SAT. These are critical abstract concepts, which they're foregoing for rote memorization and algebraic problem solving.

Which is a better measure of one's intelligence? Telling them to find the length of the hypotenuse of a triangle (with diagram provided) or asking them to explain how "astronomy" relates to "science" by picking a pair of words with a similar relationship.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:33 pm

kurupt wrote:
Lothar wrote:One possibility to cut down the risk of "mommy fills in the answers" would be to have homeschoolers have to take standardized tests at a local public school or some other accredited institution (like a specialized testing facility) once per year. If they're not at least keeping up, they can no longer homeschool.
something like this is all im asking for.

Kurupt, we do take standardized tests. Every year. I've taken the SAT for the last several years. This past year, I got an above average grade in somewhere around 35 topics, and average on 5 topics. Mom got mad at me for getting that low of a score. I've come to know another homeschooler through robitics these last 4 weeks who is absolutely amazing. He's taking calculus 2 in college. He is 16 years old.

The potential for abuse is a tidbit less in public schooling than in homeschooling, but think of it this way: how do you know someone is being abused? You probably notice a bruise, or an unusual level of depression in the student. Bruises occur all the time to any normal human being; and anyone who's depressed in school usually gets put on drug after a token "examination". In homeschooling, the kids get out and about. If they don't, then they are probably in a situation which should be looked into. Simple as that.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:33 pm

Well, you probably read me wrong. Probably my bad for not being clear enough, sorry. I was answering kurupts change question. Thereâ??s nothing abstract about calculating someoneâ??s change and I know it. One of the things I liked about math was now strictly logical it could be, once you learned some rule it stuck that way and you could always apply the same rule to the same situation every time and come up with the correct results. I was referring more to the math that I encountered in tests, most of which required little in the way of actual thought, I passed most of the multiple choice questions more or less instantly because the only answers were like .072, 72 and 4,328,773. Not that hard to guess the correct answer. Standardized tests today measure you as compared to the lowest common denominator. Iâ??m also not even close to being a math wizard; it is not my strong point. My viewpoint is: I do not believe in standardized tests, I have long ago lost all faith in them.

The education I see coming out of public school results in kids who are full of facts, like they know what the exact boiling temperature of water at sea level is, but they couldnâ??t cook a box full of noodles to save their lives.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:55 pm

stryker, i'm dumber after reading your post. thanks, its gonna take me 2 weeks of solid nerding to get those brain cells back.

i'm not asking for standardized tests. i'm asking quite the opposite. i was in high school not that long ago and we had standardized tests. i'm not the second coming of stephen hawking, but i'm a fairly sharp person. i didn't do an hours worth of work in the 4 years i was in highschool, because i didnt have to. i could get straight b's without studying at all, and thats what i did. those tests didnt require any thinking, all they did was give you 4 answers. 2 of them only a moron would even consider, and 2 that were real possibilities. a little bit of paying attention in class half of the time and asking someone who was a nerd what he thought was the best part of the class was would net me enough knowledge to get a b on that test through a bit of educated guessing and savvy circle filling. i wanted to graduate, so i did care about my grades, but i knew i didnt have to try becuase of the way i was graded. had there been real tests that required me to do some work i'd be alot better off today. there were a ton of kids i knew who approached school the same way as me. how are we supposed to succeed when we arent trying? i want schools to force kids to try, not to babysit them. i dont want to continue much further down the path we're on. back when our parents were young you didnt need an education to get by. times change, and now its more necessary than its ever been, but the rate of education really hasnt changed much. we're stuck in the education stone age. our parents just grunted and ate ants, and we've managed to invent the wheel, but how much better off are we really? i dont want our kids to discover fire, i want them to be able to figure out how to put the ozone layer back like we never fucked it up in the first place.

i dont have the answers, if i did i wouldnt be sitting here. all i can tell you is that the amount of unskilled jobs is shrinking and the amount of unskilled workers is not.

i got a real crash course going into college because it was such a severe jump from high school. there were no standardized tests in college, you had to think. my brain was rusty because it was never challenged. there has to be some reason why 90% of the freshman class at my university never made it to be a sophomore. is it because they're stupid? probably has some bearing on that number, but not 90% of the student body or even close to 90%. i think it lies in the preperation, or lack thereof.

had i been home schooled it wouldnt have been any different for me, i would have just taken the standardized test without really learning anything and spending most of my time outside or playing games all day. i benefited from public schools. i didnt learn more, but i did sharpen my social skills quite a bit. i dont have parents who push me to be at my best, and most kids dont either. the kids that do and who would benefit from homeschooling should not be in public schools but those kids are pretty rare. alot of kids have parents that could only home school them through the 8th grade before the material got too advanced for them, or they would be happy with their job as a parent if their kid turned 18, got a job at a tire plant and moved out. homeschooling isnt for everyone, its for the few. i think we should spend more time fixing the public school systems. thats the only realistic way to ensure our future brightens up a little.

and stryker, i scored a 26 on my ACT's with a hangover. thats not a score of a genius or anything, but its well above average. 16 is average, on a scale of 0-35. most peoples parents would be bragging to their friends about it. i know my mom did. hell, i was all smiles when i got the packet in the mail. but it doesnt matter, unless you can nail a 30 on them or the SAT equivalent and most people cant. i scored a 32 on the english section (my major) but i still struggled in college. scoring in the 99th percentile in the field of study i'm in did absolutely nothing for me. once you get into the real world you'll realize that a standardized test is not something you'll use to do your job or further your career. its a waste of time.

and the fact that this kid is amazing has nothing to do with homeschooling. if he was amazing, he'd be amazing in public schools too. some kids are just born gifted, like he was. a kid like that can get alot more attention being homeschooled, and he should be for that reason. or perhaps a school for gifted children, which unless his parents are also gifted would benefit him more. if his parents cant challenge him, he cant grow and then homeschooling would be a big mistake, doing him no better than a public school would. but he does not represent the average kid anyway. the average kid would not be in calc 2 at 16 just because they were homeschooled. the average kid will never take calc 2 period.

and what are you talking about in that last paragraph? i'm completely lost. i said nothing of child abuse.

"The education I see coming out of public school results in kids who are full of facts, like they know what the exact boiling temperature of water at sea level is, but they couldnâ??t cook a box full of noodles to save their lives." - Krom

is this you, or did you just not read before you posted? i'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just posted without reading.

in closing, my answer to the poll question was "Legal, but not promoted by the government." i think homeschooling should be an alternative to public schools, but the government should promote public schools by fixing what is wrong with them. the better the public schools get, the better the future will be for the next generation.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:14 pm

kurupt wrote:stryker, i'm dumber after reading your post. thanks, its gonna take me 2 weeks of solid nerding to get those brain cells back.

i'm not asking for standardized tests. i'm asking quite the opposite. i was in high school not that long ago and we had standardized tests. i'm not the second coming of stephen hawking, but i'm a fairly sharp person. i didn't do an hours worth of work in the 4 years i was in highschool, because i didnt have to. i could get straight b's without studying at all, and thats what i did. those tests didnt require any thinking, all they did was give you 4 answers. 2 of them only a moron would even consider, and 2 that were real possibilities. a little bit of paying attention in class half of the time and asking someone who was a nerd what he thought was the best part of the class was would net me enough knowledge to get a b on that test through a bit of educated guessing and savvy circle filling. i wanted to graduate, so i did care about my grades, but i knew i didnt have to try becuase of the way i was graded. had there been real tests that required me to do some work i'd be alot better off today. there were a ton of kids i knew who approached school the same way as me. how are we supposed to succeed when we arent trying? i want schools to force kids to try, not to babysit them. i dont want to continue much further down the path we're on. back when our parents were young you didnt need an education to get by. times change, and now its more necessary than its ever been, but the rate of education really hasnt changed much. we're stuck in the education stone age. our parents just grunted and ate ants, and we've managed to invent the wheel, but how much better off are we really? i dont want our kids to discover fire, i want them to be able to figure out how to put the ozone layer back like we never ****ed it up in the first place.

I agree with you. Homeschoolers, however, aren't confined in school all day. They go to co-ops, work in political campaigns, take robotics classes, and various other things. What they DON'T do is ignore schoolwork. Most homeschooling parents I know care enough about their kids to ensure that they have the finest education possible. Homeschooled kids don't slack. They work their tails off doing educational work designed by the finest brains in this country. I had no idea what a multiple-choice question WAS until I took a standardized test for the first time.

kurupt wrote:i dont have the answers, if i did i wouldnt be sitting here. all i can tell you is that the amount of unskilled jobs is shrinking and the amount of unskilled workers is not.

That's not the fault of homeschooling.

kurupt wrote:i got a real crash course going into college because it was such a severe jump from high school. there were no standardized tests in college, you had to think. my brain was rusty because it was never challenged. there has to be some reason why 90% of the freshman class at my university never made it to be a sophomore. is it because they're stupid? probably has some bearing on that number, but not 90% of the student body or even close to 90%. i think it lies in the preperation, or lack thereof.

Again, more than 90% of homeschooling parents make their kids WORK. I know I work all day and I still don't get all my schoolwork done.

kurupt wrote:had i been home schooled it wouldnt have been any different for me, i would have just taken the standardized test without really learning anything and spending most of my time outside or playing games all day. i benefited from public schools. i didnt learn more, but i did sharpen my social skills quite a bit. i dont have parents who push me to be at my best, and most kids dont either. the kids that do and who would benefit from homeschooling should not be in public schools but those kids are pretty rare. alot of kids have parents that could only home school them through the 8th grade before the material got too advanced for them, or they would be happy with their job as a parent if their kid turned 18, got a job at a tire plant and moved out. homeschooling isnt for everyone, its for the few. i think we should spend more time fixing the public school systems. thats the only realistic way to ensure our future brightens up a little.

Actually, if your parents cared anything WHATSOEVER about your life, you would have been working, not playing games. What, you think I play games all afternoon? What you didn't learn in public school you probably would have learned in homeschool. Homeschooling is tough. Parents have a reason to force you to learn; after all, you're their kid. Teachers don't have to care whether you go to higher education in a gang-infested ghetto or Patrick Henry College when you get older; they're paid to keep kids from killing each other and maybe attempt to tell them a few things about life while they're at it.

kurupt wrote:and stryker, i scored a 26 on my ACT's with a hangover. thats not a score of a genius or anything, but its well above average. 16 is average, on a scale of 0-35. most peoples parents would be bragging to their friends about it. i know my mom did. hell, i was all smiles when i got the packet in the mail. but it doesnt matter, unless you can nail a 30 on them or the SAT equivalent and most people cant. i scored a 32 on the english section (my major) but i still struggled in college. scoring in the 99th percentile in the field of study i'm in did absolutely nothing for me. once you get into the real world you'll realize that a standardized test is not something you'll use to do your job or further your career. its a waste of time.

Homeschooling makes that shock of going from high school to college less intense. Over half the homeschooled kids I know are already taking college classes in addition to their standard curriculum. Homeschoolers have consistently scored in the top 10% of their grade levels nationally. They go on to college at higher rates, and graduate from college at higher rates.

kurupt wrote:and the fact that this kid is amazing has nothing to do with homeschooling. if he was amazing, he'd be amazing in public schools too. some kids are just born gifted, like he was. a kid like that can get alot more attention being homeschooled, and he should be for that reason. or perhaps a school for gifted children, which unless his parents are also gifted would benefit him more. if his parents cant challenge him, he cant grow and then homeschooling would be a big mistake, doing him no better than a public school would. but he does not represent the average kid anyway. the average kid would not be in calc 2 at 16 just because they were homeschooled. the average kid will never take calc 2 period.

You can argue this all day, but the fact remains: when you are in public school, you go to the classes with people of the same age group, no matter how smart you are. That's why you were sleeping through classes. You simply weren't being challenged to keep up with the rest of your class.

kurupt wrote:and what are you talking about in that last paragraph? i'm completely lost. i said nothing of child abuse.

"The education I see coming out of public school results in kids who are full of facts, like they know what the exact boiling temperature of water at sea level is, but they couldnâ??t cook a box full of noodles to save their lives." - Krom

is this you, or did you just not read before you posted? i'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just posted without reading.

in closing, my answer to the poll question was "Legal, but not promoted by the government." i think homeschooling should be an alternative to public schools, but the government should promote public schools by fixing what is wrong with them. the better the public schools get, the better the future will be for the next generation.

I read your post thoroughly before posting. That part of my post wasn't aimed at you; it was responding to some of the people who think that homeschoolers are all abused worms whose parents go around beating them all day.

My point is, homeschoolers are at the top of the national averages. They graduate more frequently, go on to higher education more often, and generally get better jobs. Homeschooling does have benefits--it isn't for everyone, but those who are homeschooled generally have a better shot at life.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:08 pm

Stryker wrote:My point is, homeschoolers are at the top of the national averages. They graduate more frequently, go on to higher education more often, and generally get better jobs. Homeschooling does have benefits--it isn't for everyone, but those who are homeschooled generally have a better shot at life.

the point i was trying to make was that there is more reason behind these numbers than just that they were homeschooled, and having every kid in the country homeschooled versus every kid in the public or private school systems is not gonna benefit society.

kids who are homeschooled are homeschooled because they have parents who have the time to do it, among other reasons. focusing on that one reason, that rules out more than half of the country. in the present time most married people both work at least 1 job. the days of dad working 9 to 5 and coming home with a wife in an apron with hot dinner on the table are long gone. i couldnt have been homeschooled for the simple reason that we struggled to eat even though both my parents had steady employment. had i been homeschooled it would have been on the street corner because the time spent schooling me would mean that there wasnt enough money coming in to pay the rent. there are many many more families in this boat than there are out of this boat. then you gotta throw in good portion of parents who are divorced. when there is only one working adult in the home, time for homeschooling is nil and they generally cant afford to pay a tutor or for private school. tons of single parents out there too, and they can barely get by supporting a kid financially without help. even with child support (what a joke) its still not feasible.

these things leave public school as the only realistic option for most kids in this country. i didn't choose the poll option "illegal" because i dont think homeschooling is a bad thing for a kid to have most of the time, but i cannot see how government backing homeschooling can have any realistic benefit in our society.

Stryker wrote:My point is, homeschoolers are at the top of the national averages. They graduate more frequently, go on to higher education more often, and generally get better jobs. Homeschooling does have benefits--it isn't for everyone, but those who are homeschooled generally have a better shot at life.

if we had good public schools wouldnt you think that would be true for those kids as well? homeschooled kids are almost always one of three things: gifted, troublesome, or handicapped. all three of these categories need special attention that they cant get in public schools as they exist today. what i'm interpreting the poll question is that to have the government backing public schools means that they are doing something to fix them. because honestly, why would anyone back them as they are now?

if the kids in public schools that were gifted could get into programs that focused on helping them go somewhere in life rather than just getting them out of the building before they were 20 then you would see them mixed in with those percentiles too. they had a program like that up until i was a 5th grader. i was in it, and it focused on the creative side of the kid sin the program. preparing us to be engineers, scientists, doctors, anything like that we wanted. but the program got cut because the schools couldnt afford it. homeschooled kids are usually better off careerwise, i agree with you there. its pretty much like they have that program every single day. but what i'm arguing for is not to be rid of homeschooling, but to make public schools just as good because alot of kids just cant be homeschooled. having the government back it is just foolish. why give the minority all the help when its the majority that needs it? why not put these programs back into schools by giving them the money to do it (and mayben some rules on what they have to do with the money) so that kids who's parents both work can have the same chance that a homeschooled kid has? it will benefit alot more people this way.

if this were a country where the man worked and the woman stayed at home or vice versa, i'd agree with you 100%. but its not like that anymore, its far from it.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:29 pm

Yeah, I've seen cases like that before. It really is a bummer, and the parents can't give the kid the attention he/she needs normally, much less homeschool them. However, even in families with 2 working parents, homeschooling is sometimes feasible. If the kid has a lot of initiative and actually WANTS to learn, the parent can get by with as little as 15 minutes of actual instruction per day.

It would be REALLY good if the government could give a tax break to homeschoolers. Not just for the sake of homeschooling, but think about it: homeschooled parents have to pay for their curriculum. They also support public schools through their taxes (and as much as 30-40% of their taxes go towards public education). If the government would not make homeschoolers pay taxes for public education, it would be very beneficial. Throwing more tax dollars at the schools without reforming the schools BIG TIME won't help anyway. Recently a new high-school was built in our area. They IMPORTED DIRT FROM ARIZONA FOR THE PLAYGROUNDS/BASEBALL FIELDS!!! So long as lunatic stuff like this goes on, any extra money we give to public schools will be thrown away.

Phaser · Post by **Phaser** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:35 pm

I was in homeschooling for 2 years...it was ok..i guess

Ympakt · Post by **Ympakt** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:36 pm

A view from the outside:

I have not been homeschooled, but I have been around a lot of kids who have, and parents who have homeschooled. The most common reasons I've heard for homeschooling are: Public schools suck, a more religious upbringing, "secessionist" or anti-establishmnet beliefs.

The first reason I can totally understand; You hear a lot of negatives about our public schools: Overcrowded, underfunded, undersupervised, understraffed,etc. Our public schools definitely differ by location. There is no shortage of stories floating around about how schools in more affluent areas get better "everything", but schools in poorer or depressed areas have to struggle to get just basic supplies. Having dated a teacher in a poorer school district, I can vouch for fact that teachers had to purchase a lot of their own supplies that were issued by by other school districts. The short-staffing is a huge problem as well; underpaid, overworked staff just don't have the time to monitor and guide kids the best way possible. In defense of public schools, the amount of information I took from class depended upon my interest in the subject and the teacher, not necessarily the school itself. Even if I wasn't that interested in the material, a good teacher made a lot of difference. There were too few "good" teachers, the rest appeared to be just going through the motions or were just "burnt out." Someday I may be a parent (scary thought, I may reproduce someday

) and I have to consider putting a child of mine through the public school system. It's makes me shudder, not necessarily because of the teachers, but because kids are just brutal....

One of the other reasons I've seen kids homeschooled could be a combination of things: religion, anti-establishmentarianisnm(sp?), and laziness(?).
Many of the kids that I saw that were homeschooled for religious reason were....ill equipped(?) to deal with public schools. Prehaps not the best words, but they had a hard time adjusting to regular schools when they were thrown in the mix. There's also the far out segment that keeps their kids at home because they're bucking the system. This can be a combination of many of the things I've mentioned, but to sum them up I'd probably call them survivalist nuts or something.

As far as laziness goes, I've only seen this once. The parents just didn't care. They "homeschooled" their kids so they (parents) wouldn't have to deal with taking the kids to school, as well as the associated activities. The kids were animals. I don't know where the oversight was, but these kids were going to grow up illiterate. Don't know what happened to them in the end.

In the end, parents are the the most liable for the result of homeschooling and in everthing else regarding the upbringing of a child, with almost no exception IMO. If the parents are morons, it's likely the child will be too, regardless of what kind of school they go to. I don't mean intelligence-wise either. There are some pretty smart people out there who never should have been parents, they don't have the time to do it right.

Homeschooling...

Should homeschooling be: