Drugs II

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:41 am

From other thread:

Drugs (used ONLY for their intoxication effects) should remain illegal....ALONG with alcohol. ALL should be illegal. "Responsible use" is a joke when it comes to drugs since judgement is the first thing to be destroyed by their action.

Addictive drugs/substances should also be made illegal or controlled (nicotine, etc.)

I frankly don't care what drug addicts do to themselves...but I DO care when they kill or maim innocents in the process. I'd be all for legalization of drugs IF doing so would NOT put more people in danger from dumbf*cks that do the drugs and kill others from accidents/etc.

Frankly, if you DWI and kill someone, you should be put to death.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:50 am

I fail to see the point of making the second thread.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:42 am

I disagree about alcohol, conservative amounts of wine are good for you. Not everyone uses it for it's intoxicating effects. It's also used a great deal in cooking. No, alcohol is in a different category.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:34 am

What abotu cigarettes? They are a drug also.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:53 am

Cigarettes have absolutely no health benefit, but they're not mind-altering in the sense that pot or heavy drugs are. If you want to make cigarettes illegal because they containe nicotene then logically you must ban sugar and caffeine.

But you are correct, I won't argue that cigarettes aren't drugs. And they're fricken addictive as hell, too.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:07 am

My thing about smokes was that they cost the Gov't (here anyways) billions a year in health costs.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:32 am

TB, driving under the influence or drugs and alcohol is one thing, but why can't i enjoy a nice joint at my house where i'm doing no one but the pizza delivery guy harm? what makes that illegal? so what if it's mind altering, that's some good weed if it does that. i know it does that, i smoke it knowing what it's going to do, i'm a grown adult and this is a free country damnit. you ever smoked weed tb?

Clayman · Post by **Clayman** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:56 am

While we're at it, let's ban all forms of weapons (guns, knives, even kitchen ones, scissors, baseball bats, et. al.). Countless crimes are committed each year using those as lethal weapons.

The problem TB is that as long as we have items that can be consumed or used and have potential threats to ourselves or others there are going to be those who abuse them. The solution is not to make these items contraband, but to enforce punishments against encroachments on the rights of others.

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:15 am

DCrazy wrote:Cigarettes have absolutely no health benefit

cigarettes do have a mental health benefit.
that's why %70-%90 of schizophrenics smoke - instinctual self medication (hey i like the effects this has, i think i'll keep doing it).
it's also useful in other mental health issues.
outside of the clinic, and you dont have to go far to see someone smoking to help themselves relax, and control their mood.

"recreation" effects "mental health", too little recreation and your mental health suffers. mentally healthy people make use of recreation, can't argue with that.

if you kill someone while under the influence, it shouldn't effect the trial outcome.

few year back a guy i know stabbed and killed a friend of mine coz he had fucked up his medications (he stuffed up his dose, AND mixed it with alcohol which he knew was a bad idea, so i guess there was some recreational influence involved). yeah he's in jail. i havn't really wondered until now if his drug fuckup effected the severity of his sentance or not. frankly i don't really hold much malice against him (i blame the drug fuckup), but i havn't exactly visited him in jail either.

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:17 am

If drugs were legalized, I would require that severe penalties would have to be passed in order to curb harm to innocents...like the death penalty for a person that kills another while intoxicated.

More people would die of course. SO, the next best thing would be to keep all drugs used for their mind intoxicating properties illegal.

Knives, weapons, etc. do not alter judgement and state of mind. Drugs do.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:43 am

Maybe you should make monogomous relationships illegal. If you've ever been cheated on, it's an altered state. It's the only state I have been on that I considered violent action, and I believe I've done the drug alphabet.

Clayman · Post by **Clayman** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:11 pm

More people would die of course.

And how did you arrive at this conclusion?

SO, the next best thing would be to keep all drugs used for their mind intoxicating properties illegal.

Your conclusion after this one doesn't follow either. The "solution" to it would be more like banning consumption of "mind-altering substances" during or shortly prior to operating a vehicle. Your premise is based on all drug consumption occuring with relation to driving, which simply isn't the case. A guy who does a joint in his house can't kill somebody in their car.

Further, it's still not clear what a "mind-altering substance" is. As I referred to in the other thread, I'm an avid musician, and most music puts me in an altered state. I'm sure there are an almost array of variables that can affect one's perception, mood, whatever.

Bonz · Post by **Bonz** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:09 am

I'd be willing to bet more people have died from alcohol rather than drugs and alcohol is legal so they say

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:19 am

oh HELL yeah, many times over. i'll look up the figures to compare if you want.

here we are

Tobacco --------------------------------- 435,000
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity -------- 400,000
Alcohol ------------------------- 85,000 / 101,653
Microbial Agents -------------------------- 75,000
Toxic Agents ------------------------------ 55,000
Motor Vehicle Crashes ------------ 43,000 / 26,347
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs --- 32,000
Suicide ----------------------------------- 30,622
Incidents Involving Firearms -------------- 29,000
Homicide ---------------------------------- 20,308
Sexual Behaviors -------------------------- 20,000
All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect - 17,000
Non-Ster. Anti-Inflam. Drugs (ie: Aspirin) - 7,600
Marijuana -------------------------------------- 0

i have a more complete list bookmarked somewheres, it's got some funny stuff in there like 'death by choking on a peanut' (iirc it's quite high).

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:19 pm

as I said before, including marijuana in this disscussion is pointless.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:04 pm

Caffiene should also be illegal, then, TB, according to you.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:15 pm

I'd be wary of bare breasts. Just look at how janet jackson traumatised a whole nation

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:14 am

just re-reading through the thread..

DCrazy wrote:Cigarettes have absolutely no health benefit, but they're not mind-altering in the sense that pot or heavy drugs are. If you want to make cigarettes illegal because they containe nicotene then logically you must ban sugar and caffeine.

But you are correct, I won't argue that cigarettes aren't drugs. And they're fricken addictive as hell, too.

raw tobacco can be 'mild-altering' in the same sense that 'pot and heavy drugs are'. it's a fucked up hallucinogen that'll have you tripping for a while if taken raw (and i assume, in a higher dosage).
some shamanistic practices of south american jungle living tribes (?) use raw tobacco as part of their spiritual journeys.

something that you have to keep in mind is that the drugs we today use legally and recreationally; we generally use in small doses. a tobacco cigarette is a small dose of nicotine, it's enough to give you a buzz but you're hardly considered 'high' on it. a cup of coffee will hardly have you on your ear. the same can't be said of alcohol, coz we generally DO take that to the extreme, people getting off their face (ie: 'high') quite easily/regularly on that.

there are people out there that take small doses of illegal drugs, just as part of everyday life like a cigarette or a cup of coffee. i remember speaking to a few office professionals who a very small dose of meth every morning, as a wake up, like a coffee.

people seem to think that currently 'illegal' drugs are a binary dosage: you either take them and are completely fucked up, or you are not taking them and are completely sober.

now, a lot of people do use illegal drugs like this. but things were similar back when alcohol was illegal, where if people were gonna drink, they sure as hell were trying to get drunk. binge drinking was the ONLY way to drink. why would you bother risking your neck with the law for a single weak social beer with your mates?

as a result there were a LOT of deaths back then from alcohol overdose (and tainted drinks).

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:39 pm

Roid, I'd like to see where you got that figure from.

By health I was referring to "physical health". Nicotene is guaranteed to do some harm to your body (increase your heart rate, for one).

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:04 pm

I believe it's largely an anecdotal account that is known internationally. I think there may have been a recent study on it but I could be wrong. Every nurse will tell you in a psych ward it was true. I also had a friend who went psycho for a week and he was significantly clealer while smoking.

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:02 am

You know what?

You're right. If you need to get high, there IS something wrong with you.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:03 am

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:10 am

If you need to ban someone else's fun, there IS something wrong with you.

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:50 am

LOL

If you think getting high = fun...then you = pathetic loser.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:53 am

yeah, just like people who play video games all day, or maybe own a LAN for a living? What a bunch of pathetic loser dorks

let's not project too much here or anything

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:35 am

Too many people have the attitude that getting high "is fun"....getting drunk "is fun." WHY the **CK do they? Explain this to me. I have never seen the need or reason for it.

"Reasons" I have heard:

I'm depressed and need a pick me up.

I had nothing to do.

Someone else was doing it, so I did it too.

The cool kids were doing it.

I needed to forget.

....

"Wow man, how could you never drink or smoke? I can't think of going through life without something."

Why do you people think you "need" it?

I've been in bad situations - and some very horrible - recently and never even thought of "drowning" myself in some kind of chemical crap to deaden my thoughts or emotions. My dad passed away...my cousin was brutally murdered... Did I run to some substance? No.

Excuses - you seem to need it for:

"fun....pleasure....to forget....etc."

...pathetic.

What substance use/abuse makes me feel is seething rage. I see people kill others because they don't seem to care about themselves or others when they drink and drive...or steal or maim to use more of the drug(s). The drug producers get rich and more people become addicted. Tobacco companies hope to addict children. Alcohol producers seek to associate themselves with pleasureable experiences.

I see selfish addicts that care nothing but for the 'feeling' that these substances impart without regard for themselves or those around them. I see cruelty and stupidity.

You know what I hear most from people that do drugs or drink? "I DON'T CARE." You got that right!

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:53 am

"Reasons" I have heard for playing so many video games that I own a LAN business:

I'm depressed and need a pick me up.

I had nothing to do.

Someone else was doing it, so I did it too.

The cool kids were doing it.

I needed to forget.
-------

Reasons I have smoked a little pot or drank a little alcohol:
1) to relax
2) to have a good time with some friends (yep, we have great times sober too)

Reasons I have taken hallucinogens:
1) see the world from a different perspective
2) laugh until I cry
3) stop worrying about things that don't matter

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:56 pm

I've never heard any of your reasons from anybody, TB. I don't know anyone, including myself, who's had friends/family die and they rush to drugs.

Getting high is fun, I've never not had fun after a joint. You can't talk about something you've never done.

What would you do, TB, if games were banned? Wouldn't you play them anyway? You cna't say gaming isn't dangerous. It causes carpel tunnel, some people died from it, etc, etc. Let's ban games. What would be your 'excuse' to continue to play them? For fun? Why, that would make you a pathetic loser, right?

What's pethetic is your self-serving need to stick your dick in other people's affairs. Why? Are you Ashcroft's brother or something? You saound just like him. "I've never done drugs, and I've never had a drink, I've never stayed up past 11. But I know all that is bad bad bad."

You just don't know what you are talking about.

Robo · Post by **Robo** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:03 pm

If it's fun, then its not legal

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:30 pm

roid wrote:oh HELL yeah, many times over. i'll look up the figures to compare if you want.

here we are

Just don't forget that the alcohol deaths, tobacco deaths, et al. in your statistic include indirectly caused deaths via liver disease, lung cancer, etc., whereas the marijuana deaths statistic focuses solely on overdoses. I'm sure there were probably just as few tobacco overdoses per capita as marijuana overdoses in that respect.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:20 pm

Birdseye wrote:3) stop worrying about things that don't matter

If you need hallucinogens to "stop worrying about things that don't matter", you need a life re-evaluation.

If you know x, y and z are things not worth worring about, but need to put yourself in state where you can't do anything about x, y or z functionally, you are simply using chemcials to avoid the issue, rather than actually stop worrying about it.

roid · Post by **roid** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:51 pm

ThunderBunny, if you were drunk while posting that (or a teenager), it'd possibly be understandable. you scare me.

are you serious?

you really have such a holier than thou attitude that you think that if YOU don't want to do something, then it SHOULD BE ILLEGAL!? god man, are all your friends clones of you or something? hey i don't like watching game shows on TV, i generally find people who watching gameshows to be stupid, annoying, boring people.
lets ban tv gameshows, worldwide.

you have such a disrespect for freedom it sickens me that you feel comfortable walking outof your home into the usa.

(and to think that for the most time i thought you were being sarcastic in this thread, my mind is boggling that you are actually serious.)

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:55 pm

I'm siding with ThunderBunny on this.

*edit

Frankly I don't see the need for it.

I've never used an illegal substance in my life. I admit I do drink on occasion but I have never been drunk. If someone took the right to drink away from me I wouldn't care in the slightest. Maybe that is really the issue here.

Are all you "pro drug" guys offended by TB because his standing violates freedom or are you agitated because of an addiction to these substances?

BTW if anyone replies, â??I donâ??t want them banned because I enjoy themâ?

roid · Post by **roid** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:58 pm

DCrazy wrote:Roid, I have schizoidal tendencies and I smoke. Interesting, that... I'd like to see where you got that figure from.

By health I was referring to "physical health". Nicotene is guaranteed to do some harm to your body (increase your heart rate, for one).

http://www.google.com/search?q=schizophrenia+smoking
186,000 results
anything there would be a good introduction.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:58 pm

how old is roid? I think I asked that before, many a thread ago.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:10 am

roid = 20 - 22

*above post edited

*

roid · Post by **roid** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:36 am

i'm 23.
my substance of choice atm is alcohol (much like most people), of which i take on average 0-6 standard drinks a week, mostly concentrated around weekends. <-rec
i inject insulin 4X a day. <-med
i sometimes inhale salbutamol. <-med
i recently finished a 6 month course of SSRIs. <-med
i don't drink coffee regularly, when i do it makes me very very hyperactive. <-rec
i like chocolate and fruit juice. <-med/rec

i'm arguing the points from the stance of 'freedoms'.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:47 am

XeonJr wrote:Are all you "pro drug" guys offended by TB because his standing violates freedom or are you agitated because of an addiction to these substances?

I'm pro drug but don't do any. I don't even drink. I see banning them outright a waste of resources and just doesn't make all that much sense from anybody's standpoint. Personal responsibility and all that jazz.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:57 am

I'll just clarify to make sure people aren't selling themselves out

1)Can you terminate consumption of any substance you are currently taking for recreation NOW and be 100% emotionally and physically disconnected from the product. In which case "freedom" can now be argued.

2)If you answered no to the above then any arguements on the basis of "freedom" are bias. In essense you are actually argueing to keep an addiction.

I won't say "right" to keep an addiction because addicts are mentally influenced by the substance and cannot soundly argue "right" without bias. ie. You cannot determine whether its the drugs talking or the person.

XeonJr · Post by **XeonJr** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:09 am

If everyone upheld a "personal responsibility" attitude this issue wouldn't be a problem. I'd be pro drug too if people were responsible in there usage.

Unfortunately, in alot of cases, responsibility seems to fly out the window when these drugs are taken. Certainly a lose lose situation.