Congratulations, you have made an argument that shoots down essentially everything people could possibly find enjoyable.XeonJr wrote:1)Can you terminate consumption of any substance you are currently taking for recreation NOW and be 100% emotionally and physically disconnected from the product. In which case "freedom" can now be argued.
2)If you answered no to the above then any arguements on the basis of "freedom" are bias. In essense you are actually argueing to keep an addiction.
I won't say "right" to keep an addiction because addicts are mentally influenced by the substance and cannot soundly argue "right" without bias. ie. You cannot determine whether its the drugs talking or the person.
Drugs II
Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250
Well no.. I enjoy Descent 3 but I can stop and actually have stopped playing it due to other responsibilities. There is no "urge" to play that I have to satisfy on a regular basis. This is totally contrary to an addiction which is an overwelming need.
Pehaps I should further refine this comment
[quote]â??I donâ??t want them banned because I enjoy themâ?
as you can see XeonJr i'm not currently on any illegal drugs. so yeah, you can't write off anything i'm saying as "oh he's just a drugged zombie/vampire, doing anything he can to further the unholy cause of his master".
[spoiler]wern't you doing something similar in my freedoms thread? saying how "oh you guy's don't have the right to discuss international issues because you don't travel much, so everyone shutup". i do hope you are not consciously trying to stifle my discussions by finding petty ways to write off all comments one side has as null/void XeonJr.[/spoiler]
the nature of addiction is a whole topic on it's own.
if you wish to use it as an excuse to write off ppl's ideas on the topic as 'tainted'. make your own thread about it, or just wait until i do.
you are making things kindof silly if i am forced to prove to you that i am not an alcoholic before you will consider my opinions. lets move away from that path ok.
ppl play D3 well into the night, loosing sleep. so does this come under your loosely defined* "overly consuming" clause?
yet another easy example that would fall into your catagory of being overly consuming: SEX.
another: LOVE.
*you should try to define that.
[spoiler]wern't you doing something similar in my freedoms thread? saying how "oh you guy's don't have the right to discuss international issues because you don't travel much, so everyone shutup". i do hope you are not consciously trying to stifle my discussions by finding petty ways to write off all comments one side has as null/void XeonJr.[/spoiler]
the nature of addiction is a whole topic on it's own.
if you wish to use it as an excuse to write off ppl's ideas on the topic as 'tainted'. make your own thread about it, or just wait until i do.
you are making things kindof silly if i am forced to prove to you that i am not an alcoholic before you will consider my opinions. lets move away from that path ok.
ppl play D3 well into the night, loosing sleep. so does this come under your loosely defined* "overly consuming" clause?
yet another easy example that would fall into your catagory of being overly consuming: SEX.
another: LOVE.
*you should try to define that.
First off Roid, Would you like a hug?
2ndly.. you read far to much into what is posted.
3rd. Acutally I made the point about forming an oppinion on things you have no factual experience with.
Your claim has zero basis in this thread. Drugs are everywhere in society. While I may not use them I have friends who do and I feel the affects first hand.
4th
Addiction has everything to do with this thread as it directly influences peoples thoughts and feelings on this subject.
5th
Everything in moderation is "ok." Be it D3, drugs, whatever. If playing D3 all night long interferes with commitments you have the following day.. then Yes I see a problem.
Sex is different. It is biologically inbuilt for the sake of the species. It can however be consciously controlled. The simplest way is by satisfying it.
On another note for the past year I have had a serious digestive problem which has crippled my health. A side effect is that my sex drive is very low. A plus is that I can engage in conversation with the opposite sex without mental or physical hinderence. I am simply not attracted to them.
My point, incase you missed it is "sex" is not a choice as such. It is an "addiction" albiet a good addiction for the most part. It can also be destructive as it is responsible for hundreds of STD's, assaults, etc..
*edit If, when my health returns, I have a choice for sex or to retain my current clarity of thought, I would choose thought. I can argue this simply because I am no longer bound to my internal bioligy screaming for propergation. I can't want what I don't miss
*edit*
BTW I am not asking you.. or anyone to prove anything to me. If your an alcoholic, you will know it. Which is why I headed that passage "selling yourself out."
"whenever you run somthing past you just make sure you're not lieing to yourself"
2ndly.. you read far to much into what is posted.
3rd. Acutally I made the point about forming an oppinion on things you have no factual experience with.
Your claim has zero basis in this thread. Drugs are everywhere in society. While I may not use them I have friends who do and I feel the affects first hand.
4th
Addiction has everything to do with this thread as it directly influences peoples thoughts and feelings on this subject.
5th
Everything in moderation is "ok." Be it D3, drugs, whatever. If playing D3 all night long interferes with commitments you have the following day.. then Yes I see a problem.
Sex is different. It is biologically inbuilt for the sake of the species. It can however be consciously controlled. The simplest way is by satisfying it.
On another note for the past year I have had a serious digestive problem which has crippled my health. A side effect is that my sex drive is very low. A plus is that I can engage in conversation with the opposite sex without mental or physical hinderence. I am simply not attracted to them.
My point, incase you missed it is "sex" is not a choice as such. It is an "addiction" albiet a good addiction for the most part. It can also be destructive as it is responsible for hundreds of STD's, assaults, etc..
*edit If, when my health returns, I have a choice for sex or to retain my current clarity of thought, I would choose thought. I can argue this simply because I am no longer bound to my internal bioligy screaming for propergation. I can't want what I don't miss
*edit*
BTW I am not asking you.. or anyone to prove anything to me. If your an alcoholic, you will know it. Which is why I headed that passage "selling yourself out."
"whenever you run somthing past you just make sure you're not lieing to yourself"
okok blerghegtwesdf!@ *waves arms spasticaly in teh air as if somehow clearing the air*.
you said that you on occasion take alcohol, but you wouldn't mind if it were taken away. you then say that you don't take drugs, but you have friends that do, and you feel the affects first hand.
i've made enough of a point of this: alcohol is a drug.
i'll assume you are meaning 'drugs', as in drugs that are currently illegal, ie: not alcohol.
you yourself on occasion use alcohol, do your friends feel the affects of this first hand? just as you feel the affects of their drugs?
you said that you on occasion take alcohol, but you wouldn't mind if it were taken away. you then say that you don't take drugs, but you have friends that do, and you feel the affects first hand.
i've made enough of a point of this: alcohol is a drug.
i'll assume you are meaning 'drugs', as in drugs that are currently illegal, ie: not alcohol.
you yourself on occasion use alcohol, do your friends feel the affects of this first hand? just as you feel the affects of their drugs?
Yes, I know alcohol is a drug and I admit I have been using the term loosly to cover both illegal drugs and alcohol or illegal drugs seperating alcohol. In the future I will use the term more exact to its meaning.
When I do drink "on occasion" I only down a couple at most. I have never lost my senses or my mind whilst drinking. I have always acted 100% responsibly. So, no they have never felt the effects first hand.
To bring the point home. I haven't had a drink since november 2003(when I was last testing American "rice" beer) and I don't miss it. I haven't even giving it a second thought till this thread brought it up. Don't get me wrong I enjoy drinking for the taste... alarm clock = 4am work. MORNING ALL!
When I do drink "on occasion" I only down a couple at most. I have never lost my senses or my mind whilst drinking. I have always acted 100% responsibly. So, no they have never felt the effects first hand.
To bring the point home. I haven't had a drink since november 2003(when I was last testing American "rice" beer) and I don't miss it. I haven't even giving it a second thought till this thread brought it up. Don't get me wrong I enjoy drinking for the taste... alarm clock = 4am work. MORNING ALL!
Whats funny about all these drug debates is how out of context everyone takes statements. Someone says a benefit of a drug, and now you are dependant on it. It's just another way to relax, just like walking in the park, kissing babies and sleeping in the sun.If you need hallucinogens to "stop worrying about things that don't matter", you need a life re-evaluation.
Just because sleeping in the sun helps me stop worrying about things that don't matter, am I now dependant on sleeping in the sun? nope. next.
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Testiculese
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I agree with Clayman. You should be free to ruin your life if you want, but I don't think the government should let you be on welfare, give you money, cut your taxes, or any of that junk if you're just gonna spend all your money on drugs. Course I also don't think government welfare should exist, but that's another matter.
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Fusion pimp
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Welfare is a great thing for people who need it.
Tell ya a little story 'bout a man named Barry-
Wife and I both took really good job in California's central valley so we decided to go ahead and move from Walnut creek. A few months after we got here we had our second child and both of us lost our jobs within 3 months of each other. We had 4 mouths to feed, rent, two car payments, etc. Within a few months after that we used all of our resources paying bills trying to keep our head above water.
None of my family has ever been on welfare and I'm a bit embarrassed to admit it, but, we had no choice.
We were on it for about 8 months. We used every program we could for support. While it didn't provide us with any luxury, it kept us going, provided food for my family and paid the bills, barely...
While on welfare we caught a second wind and started putting a plan together. To make a long story short, because of welfare we are now both self employed, work less than 4 hours a week, own multiple houses/cars and make close to double six figure income. I'm not trying to brag, just showing that welfare **can** help and give people that boost when they need it.
** you are the victim of an unpaid testimonial- the paticipants are not actors. Individual results may vary**
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Tell ya a little story 'bout a man named Barry-
Wife and I both took really good job in California's central valley so we decided to go ahead and move from Walnut creek. A few months after we got here we had our second child and both of us lost our jobs within 3 months of each other. We had 4 mouths to feed, rent, two car payments, etc. Within a few months after that we used all of our resources paying bills trying to keep our head above water.
None of my family has ever been on welfare and I'm a bit embarrassed to admit it, but, we had no choice.
We were on it for about 8 months. We used every program we could for support. While it didn't provide us with any luxury, it kept us going, provided food for my family and paid the bills, barely...
While on welfare we caught a second wind and started putting a plan together. To make a long story short, because of welfare we are now both self employed, work less than 4 hours a week, own multiple houses/cars and make close to double six figure income. I'm not trying to brag, just showing that welfare **can** help and give people that boost when they need it.
** you are the victim of an unpaid testimonial- the paticipants are not actors. Individual results may vary**
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Fusion pimp
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El Ka Bong
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a few points to introject:
Cannabis is An Herb ! It won't kill you. The fossil record shows the Homo Spaiens has had a ritual use of the HERB for over 50,000 years. YOu can't die from Pot!
We all crave some kind of alteration of consciousnes. Be it sleep, excitement, adrenalin or whatever. Ron K Siegel has written alot about why this is in relation to "drugs":
http://www.erowid.org/library/books/intoxication.shtml
The fact that some of us have no drive to go out and explore these altered states is just fine. I certainly don't take any offence to those who cannot, or do not wish to use any substance that makes consciousness change. Ron K siegel argues that it's an evolutionary drive to seek altered states of consciousness.. I am one of those who is genetically predisposed to want to get high. I get high on many things and activities btw, ... Descent 3 included...
But, as I've mused before here in these threads about "Drugs", how about this interesting substance; DMT, a natural neurotransmitter produced in our brains..? See link for eg...
http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/
TB how would you characterize taking DMT ? ... Is it even more "wrong" to get high on DMT, or is it a little less "wrong" given that it's an endogenous substance your body makes... ?
TB, Xeon-Jr and you not-geneticall-predisposed-to-get-high people, quit being scared of getting high! It smells like Catholic Guilt to me ..! And do you start threads like this just to get a rise out of us, or are you really that terrified of an altered state of consciousness ? Watch out ! You might get addicted !
Cannabis is An Herb ! It won't kill you. The fossil record shows the Homo Spaiens has had a ritual use of the HERB for over 50,000 years. YOu can't die from Pot!
We all crave some kind of alteration of consciousnes. Be it sleep, excitement, adrenalin or whatever. Ron K Siegel has written alot about why this is in relation to "drugs":
http://www.erowid.org/library/books/intoxication.shtml
The fact that some of us have no drive to go out and explore these altered states is just fine. I certainly don't take any offence to those who cannot, or do not wish to use any substance that makes consciousness change. Ron K siegel argues that it's an evolutionary drive to seek altered states of consciousness.. I am one of those who is genetically predisposed to want to get high. I get high on many things and activities btw, ... Descent 3 included...
But, as I've mused before here in these threads about "Drugs", how about this interesting substance; DMT, a natural neurotransmitter produced in our brains..? See link for eg...
http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/
TB how would you characterize taking DMT ? ... Is it even more "wrong" to get high on DMT, or is it a little less "wrong" given that it's an endogenous substance your body makes... ?
TB, Xeon-Jr and you not-geneticall-predisposed-to-get-high people, quit being scared of getting high! It smells like Catholic Guilt to me ..! And do you start threads like this just to get a rise out of us, or are you really that terrified of an altered state of consciousness ? Watch out ! You might get addicted !
Good, fusion. My point is, when private people are willing to give and to fund non-profit organizations that would replace welfare, welfare would be obsolete. The government shouldn't do everything. In this case, government welfare creates thousands of people who end up living off welfare, buying drugs, alchohol, whatever--and not making an effort to help themselves, unlike you. What I'm getting at is that private organizations can see when a person can be helped, and when he's just going to use the charity to buy more drugs. The government can't refuse anyone welfare, or they might get sued for "discrimination" against drug users.
Edit: Kabong, you ever wonder why these fossilized bones have been dug up showing that people used to use pot? Hmm.... There just might be a relation between pot usage and becoming a fossil...
Edit: Kabong, you ever wonder why these fossilized bones have been dug up showing that people used to use pot? Hmm.... There just might be a relation between pot usage and becoming a fossil...
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Nightshade
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Like I've repeated again and again...people getting high isn't my concern- people getting high and killing or hurting others IS.
It can be getting drunk and killing someone on the road...an addict murdering someone for money or second hand smoke in a restaurant, I'm sick and tired of paying for other people's addictions.
A hippie smoking pot at home away from others doesn't bother me. A bus driver high on something killing 15 people including small children does.
It can be getting drunk and killing someone on the road...an addict murdering someone for money or second hand smoke in a restaurant, I'm sick and tired of paying for other people's addictions.
A hippie smoking pot at home away from others doesn't bother me. A bus driver high on something killing 15 people including small children does.
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Fusion pimp
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Stryker, I agree with you.
'Cept, in California( I think it's limited to Cali, but, I'm not 100% sure) they made law that refused to provide assistence to anyone convicted of a drug crime. Now they're trying to reverse that and allow ex-users back onto the system. What a joke.
I'm cool with welfare, but limit it to a reasonable amount of time. I've heard people say that if we cut welfare we'd have a bunch of homeless people. So? I didn't put them in that position, they did. My tax dollars are providing them help to get onto their feet. I'll help anyone up, but I'm not going to support them. I don't much care for being taken advantage of and too many people mistake kindness for weakness.
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B-
'Cept, in California( I think it's limited to Cali, but, I'm not 100% sure) they made law that refused to provide assistence to anyone convicted of a drug crime. Now they're trying to reverse that and allow ex-users back onto the system. What a joke.
I'm cool with welfare, but limit it to a reasonable amount of time. I've heard people say that if we cut welfare we'd have a bunch of homeless people. So? I didn't put them in that position, they did. My tax dollars are providing them help to get onto their feet. I'll help anyone up, but I'm not going to support them. I don't much care for being taken advantage of and too many people mistake kindness for weakness.
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El Ka Bong
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Stryker, you must be MeatHead, Right ?!... Your foot goes into your mouth and sticks right out of your nose.. !
I don't think you're old enough to debate some things, especially those for which you have no experience... not like I even want to touch your logic in debate ... I just can't reist twitching at your reponses here on te DBB... (~@# TwItch .~@)...
I don't think you're old enough to debate some things, especially those for which you have no experience... not like I even want to touch your logic in debate ... I just can't reist twitching at your reponses here on te DBB... (~@# TwItch .~@)...
Barry, way to highjack
TB, way to backtrack
Earlier you were all about banning all drugs completely, now its ok if hippies smoke in their homes? Maybe because you've seen the fallacy in your argument?
In any case, here is my take. I'm a social drinker/smoker, and I enjoy a nice beer or a toke here and there. I don't do it often, but since I do enjoy it every once and a while, that makes me addicted? Hell, even if I did it on a daily basis and it wasn't affecting my responsibilities in life, ie my family, job, schoolwork, would it still be an addiction? How do you define addiction, O great DBB Puritans? I'd define it as craving something to the point of not being able to function without it. As in, you turn into a slacker, beat your girlfriend, don't do any work and turn into a lazy good for nothing. That's what I define an addict as. And if that's true, then I whole heartedly agree that addiction is bad. But completely banning something that people enjoy responsibly just to punish those who use it irresponsibly is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Maybe you should realize that people don't like to be told how to live and would rather figure it out for themselves and make their own choices based on it. And its not like addicts won't find a way to get drugs even if they were banned. Its not stopping em now.
I feel that people shouldn't have to be protected from themselves. I feel that those who have the ability to think for themselves and make wise decisions should be able to, and I don't believe in the government thinking they know better than the population. And I'm sick of holier-than-thou attitudes coming from people who don't drink/smoke. It's none of your business, you're no better than anybody else. Stop preaching.
TB, way to backtrack
Earlier you were all about banning all drugs completely, now its ok if hippies smoke in their homes? Maybe because you've seen the fallacy in your argument?
In any case, here is my take. I'm a social drinker/smoker, and I enjoy a nice beer or a toke here and there. I don't do it often, but since I do enjoy it every once and a while, that makes me addicted? Hell, even if I did it on a daily basis and it wasn't affecting my responsibilities in life, ie my family, job, schoolwork, would it still be an addiction? How do you define addiction, O great DBB Puritans? I'd define it as craving something to the point of not being able to function without it. As in, you turn into a slacker, beat your girlfriend, don't do any work and turn into a lazy good for nothing. That's what I define an addict as. And if that's true, then I whole heartedly agree that addiction is bad. But completely banning something that people enjoy responsibly just to punish those who use it irresponsibly is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Maybe you should realize that people don't like to be told how to live and would rather figure it out for themselves and make their own choices based on it. And its not like addicts won't find a way to get drugs even if they were banned. Its not stopping em now.
I feel that people shouldn't have to be protected from themselves. I feel that those who have the ability to think for themselves and make wise decisions should be able to, and I don't believe in the government thinking they know better than the population. And I'm sick of holier-than-thou attitudes coming from people who don't drink/smoke. It's none of your business, you're no better than anybody else. Stop preaching.
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Fusion pimp
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there are already laws against murder and man-slaughter. is anyone calling for them to be relaxed? no.ThunderBunny wrote:Like I've repeated again and again...people getting high isn't my concern- people getting high and killing or hurting others IS.
drug related crime and accidents would drop with legalisation.
- alcohol would be used less, more people would switch to recreationally using other safer drugs instead. alcohol causes the most problems in our society because of it's rather unique combination of effects.
- there would be no more drug crime if drugs were cheaper. and the thing stopping them from being cheaper is drug laws. the laws keep the money in the pockets of the drug dealers and the DEA.
remember the lessons learnt from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s, in regard to crime.
Well put -- exactly what I think. Have to save that somewhere..Beowulf wrote:But completely banning something that people enjoy responsibly just to punish those who use it irresponsibly is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Maybe you should realize that people don't like to be told how to live and would rather figure it out for themselves and make their own choices based on it. And its not like addicts won't find a way to get drugs even if they were banned. Its not stopping em now.
I feel that people shouldn't have to be protected from themselves. I feel that those who have the ability to think for themselves and make wise decisions should be able to, and I don't believe in the government thinking they know better than the population. And I'm sick of holier-than-thou attitudes coming from people who don't drink/smoke. It's none of your business, you're no better than anybody else. Stop preaching.