It is time to reform

[Trackball]

The Descent community simply isn't working out. Not enough people are actually playing, and those who do grow lesser by the day. If you thought it was hard to get enough players into a D3 game, try playing a large D1/D2 game. It is almost impossible. To make matters worse for D3, the bad maps are the most popular. A Subway Dancer game fills up instantly, players loving the strangely modded weapons. Descent 3 is fine how it is people.

Explain this, for it has confused me for some time now. What makes a timeless classic such as Descent obsolete or inferior to modern games in any way? True good games last more than a few months or years. Take for chess for example. This is one of the oldest games in the world. And guess what? It still owns. People continue to play it TODAY, the year 2004. Comparing Descent to most popular games is like comparing Chess to some childâ??s primitive board â??gameâ?

[Liquid Fire]

I do play descent. The thing is, I only play it when I see a good server up that's running a cool level. I'll never go play skybox or anything like that anymore. It's just not worth it. But there is hope for the 360 dof genre. Just look at high octane! If what they're doing comes out alright, it could pull this genre out of the horrible flaming no-control dive-bomb it's currently in. Also, the elitist anti-newb sentiment I see alot of people having is NOT a good thing.

newb is NOT a swear word!

[El Ka Bong]

When I've felt so concerned about "our" D3 community, I recommend that we go down to the local mall, and give away free copies of the game while chanting:

"Hare Hare ... D3 ! D3 ! D3 ! Hare Hare ! 6DF .. ! 6DF .. 6DF !"...

[Top Wop]

I said months ago that one of the things that destroys this community is a lousy selection of levels. But alas, some @$$hole opened his mouth and made himself out to be a total idiot.

Many other game communities keep the game fresh with mods, bringing a new spin on the game. But for some reason this community has a slow uptake of such "good" mods, and when people go about creating these mods or even good levels, they are discouraged by a bunch of whiney arrogant people who are filled with two things, opinions and $h!t. And thus here we are stuck with the same damn game with the same damn levels because a bunch of people are un-appreciative of other people's hard work (and hardly play themselves!)

My AIM is IronHorse227. I'd be glad to hook up with you and get something going.

[Sergeant Thorne]

But for some reason this community has a slow uptake of such "good" mods, and when people go about creating these mods or even good levels, they are discouraged by a bunch of whiney arrogant people who are filled with two things, opinions and $h!t. And thus here we are stuck with the same damn game with the same damn levels because a bunch of people are un-appreciative of other people's hard work (and hardly play themselves!)

It's my take that none of the really good level designers have been driven off in this way, they've just been busy, or have moved on to other things.

[Stryker]

They've moved on to things, or are too busy to make time for D3 levels, because people simply don't care about new levels. I know; I've tried to get people interested in some of my levels. It just doesn't work.

[Infamous Ingus]

WORD TO YA MOTHA!

Ingus agrees. And he shall continue to battle the infidels of subawaya dansa!

[Infamous Ingus]

Trackball heres what ya do:

Throw an online Descent fest

Goodluckas!

[Top Wop]

Speaking of which, ill host a Pryomania server if you guys are up for it. Max I can hold is 5 though.

[Trackball]

Trackball heres what ya do:

Throw an online Descent fest

Goodluckas!

http://suse.assesstech.com/jp/html/index.php

Oh, don't worry. There are many plans in the JP community for Descent fests. We are probably going to start hosting D1 revivals, as well as regular matches for both D1/D2.

[Beowulf]

Sometimes we must let it go

[Top Gun]

Sometimes we must let it go

Hell no. We are NOT going to sit here and watch the greatest game ever die. I refuse to let that happen; I'll drag people off the street to my PC and force-feed them Descent before that. Trackball, I'm with you; it's about damn time we got this community going again. I'm sick of all the posers who sit in chat/post here without still playing the game. Guess what? Chat/this board are for Descent, not a social hour. Of course you can discuss other things, but at the end of the day, you'd better be in the mines. Another thing: why the hell is half of the community playing these absolute pieces of **** that the gaming industry has turned out the past few years? Stop deluding yourselves; Descent is infinitely better than the uber-derivative FPS or RPG of the week. To those who have "given up" Descent: jump into one more game. Feel that familiar adrenaline rush, and get your pulse pounding. We have one of the greatest games ever created, yet we're letting it down. Let's get new development going; let's actually play some of the great mods and levels out there, instead of sitting here bitching about how "Descent is dead." Descent will never die, not if I have anything to say about it. I'd like to think there are some out there who agree with me. I haven't gotten to play much over the past month or so, since I'm in my freshman year at college, but just the other day I jumped into a game of Steel Vapor Entropy with Isab, DigiJo, and a few others. I'd almost forgotten how much fun D3 is . Descent is life; don't deny it. Come back, and let's make this community an actual community again! I'm sick of hearing about "the good old days;" how about the good new days? Let this be the start of a Descent renaissance; we can truly make it happen. Viva Descent!

[Capm]

You know, at one point in time, myself and LordRaven, leader of TOR, made an agreement, that if nobody else played Descent, that our two teams would still play, even if it wound down to just me and him the only two people left in the world that played descent, that by God, Descent would never DIE

Well. The Midnight Squadron is still here. We're STILL HERE!

...and we're not going anywhere.

[Krom]

I still play sometimes. Been a couple weeks since my last game. Some weeks I play a lot, other times I go for 2-6 weeks without a single game. Mostly because Halcyon gets tiring, VV turned Veins into Halcyon with unlimited Mass Driver ammo, and Indika3 is just... recycled?

As for subwaydancer, I've never played it. But perhaps I will team up with the one and only Great Ninja Ingus sometime, if he will have me as a student that is.

[TheCops]

I'm sick of all the posers who sit in chat/post here without still playing the game. Guess what? Chat/this board are for Descent, not a social hour. Of course you can discuss other things, but at the end of the day, you'd better be in the mines.

hey, i'm a chat ho... and let me type you something.

i've played AAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT of descent 3 in my life. in fact... i bet my MeatPuppet pilot has played more than you (i can't confirm that). i play when i want to... NOT when somebody commands me to.

let me break it down for you:

choice between playing descent3 and having sex with a lovely young woman. what's your answer?
choice between playing descent3 and typing comedy? what's your answer?
choice between playing descent3 and partying with your friends? what's your answer?

see what i'm getting at???

if you want to do your "revivals" that's all good. if i ever get around to it i may join you. but you are a fool to be baggin' on the posers when ultimately the posers may be the only reason there is a friggin' community.

by the way is attending the chicago lan good enough for you top gun? can you take me off the poser list?

[DCrazy]

Thanks for telling us the intent of this board Top Gun. I'm notorious for not playing Descent... probably has to do with the fact that I suck. Many, many people here don't play Descent anymore. This board is a social gathering of people who share a common interest in the game, but nowhere besides the Descent-specific forums is discussion limited to Descent.

[Top Gun]

Yes, this board is for socialization, but some people here seem to have forgotten that this is, fundamentally, the Descent Bulletin Board. I'm not accusing any single person, but I've gotten that feeling over the past year or two. Yes, there's nothing wrong with socializing here or in chat. However, the fact remains that, overall, the majority of the people here should be active Descent players. I don't have any statistics, but I get the impression that this isn't so anymore.

DCrazy, so you suck. So do I, yet I play. The great thing about Descent is that it's still fun even if you suck. Since I've started playing, I've slowly improved; the only way to get better is to keep playing.

TheCops, I don't have sex, I don't post comedy, and I don't party . For me, it's Descent . I'm well aware that you have played a lot and that you were at the ChicagoLAN; I wasn't including you in those discussions. However, I disagree with you in that the "posers" are largely responsible for this community; I think the heart of this community consists of those who do actively play, or who host servers for those who do.

[Plague]

Well, since I actually got D3 to quit running funny on my new box, I might be in the mines over the next few weekends. But after basketball starts... my free time is nonexistant.

[Edit] Not to mention that I suck now. [/edit]

[iten]

I personally think Descent rocks. I say this as a new player to Descent, but I would also like to help revitalize this game.

BTW, this is my first week playing Descent. [NuB] really has the right idea, it's the best support for a game I've ever seen.

Consider this my announcement of joining this community.

[Kyouryuu]

But for some reason this community has a slow uptake of such "good" mods, and when people go about creating these mods or even good levels, they are discouraged by a bunch of whiney arrogant people who are filled with two things, opinions and $h!t.

It's my take that none of the really good level designers have been driven off in this way, they've just been busy, or have moved on to other things.

No, really. He's right.

[Clayman]

I will never stop playing Descent, even if it's just me playing D2 SP by myself in 10 years. However, I'm sure for some of us free time is not something we have in abundance. Maybe once this semester is over I'll be able to play more, but I barely have time to even check these boards anymore.

[Liquid Fire]

Here's an idea. How about running a VV server with no mass driver? It'd turn into more pitched tug-of-war battles with both sides constantly having to reinforce their two fronts instead of hit-and-run phoenixes breaking through lines and sprinting back. A couple of pyros with lasers can fill a tunnel that small with a surprising amount of fire in a short time...

[Trackball]

Here's an idea. How about running a VV server with no mass driver?

I really don't think we need another Varicose server. What we do need are D3 servers hosting good Anarchy maps.

Too many people are talking about just playing D3.
This community needs to get back into playing all of the Descent games, not just 3.

Cmon, lets throw a D1 party sometime soon.

[Krom]

I would vote for a VV server with the phoenix and the mass driver banned. That would make for some seriously interesting battles.

[Top Gun]

I've never played D1 multiplayer myself, but I'd sure be willing to try it. We should set up a D1 night on Kali .

[Sergeant Thorne]

Here's an idea.. Regular old Veins (Frenzy level 2)! The Mass Driver didn't have nearly as much of a presence in there, and the tunnels are a bit bigger. The old spawn points (non-safe) would also make for a welcome change of pace, in my mind. I've had an itch for a game of Veins for a while now; the way it used to be. It'd be great!

[Vertigo]

But for some reason this community has a slow uptake of such "good" mods, and when people go about creating these mods or even good levels, they are discouraged by a bunch of whiney arrogant people who are filled with two things, opinions and $h!t.

It's my take that none of the really good level designers have been driven off in this way, they've just been busy, or have moved on to other things.

No, really. He's right.

Yep... why make a level if it's underappreciated and never-played anyway

[akula65]

Trackball's exhortation to play is only a part of what is required to keep the Descent Community alive and well. If you look around at forums devoted to other games (some of which are also "classics"), you can see the exact same discussions taking place as individuals recognize that their community is disintegrating and ponder what to do about it. As is frequently the case, the truth is rather unpleasant, but you have to embrace it if you want to succeed. The bottom line is that without formal organization and structure (and long term plans), the community is doomed in the long run.

Consider the functions that publishers/developers perform for any successful game and which Interplay/Outrage/Parallax have provided for the Descent series in the past:

1. ADVERTISING - We've all seen the trailers and ads for the Descent games over the years. If the publisher and developer are no longer around to provide necessary advertising, then the community has to perform this function. I doubt very much that the community is able and willing to scrape together funds for print, audio, or video ads, but there are other things it can do to promote the visibilty of Descent.

One possibility is to promote and advertise Descent community activities. The Folding at Home Team effort is a good example. The community has recognized the value of the Descent Folding at Home Team through participation and the creation of the new forum at the Descent BB, but has anyone made an effort to get news media of any sort (print, TV, online, etc.) to spotlight the effort? It isn't necessary to have the focus on the Descent team in particular, although that would be nice. The focus could be on game communities in general who are participating in the project.

Another possibility is to get exposure through gaming media. Someone (Sirius, I think) said in one of the forums that they were contemplating trying to get GameSpot or a similar site to do a retrospective on the Descent series as its tenth anniversary is coming up later this year. This sort of opportunity is one that the community has to actively pursue in order to promote the visibility of the game.

Advertising can also be in the form of fan-made videos of in-game action or LAN party activities since words don't do these topics justice. But you have to actively seek means of getting these videos to outlets other than Descent community venues. Advertising is an issue that has to be addressed.

[akula65]

2. SUPPORT - Once you have the attention of potential players (or perhaps returning players), you have to get them up and running. Do new players have a single place they can go to get the answers to the questions they have? How easy is it for new players to contend with the advent of D1X and D2X or the demise of PXO? If the information they need is scattered all over the Internet, then many are likely to be discouraged and give up. I have seen reference to a number of FAQs and support sites for Descent in the BB, but what are the odds of a new player finding the particular information they need? This is an area where you have to have consolidation and coordination of effort and information. Community sites need a common and up-to-date set of links to other sites, particularly support sites. Site operators need to do everything they can to insure that search engines have registered their site (so this is an advertising issue as well).

One issue that is relevant here is the opportunity to get and receive feedback on the game and on levels or campaigns. It's great that Descent has long established forums such as the Descent BB and the PD forums, just to name a few. But if you want variety in terms of the levels that are being played or developed, there has to be a means to register and review comments and ratings by players for specific levels (over a long span of time). I think this ability to see comments on particular levels is one thing that will be sorely missed with the demise of GameEdit. You can download thousands of Descent levels for the different games from a variety of sources, but who has the time or desire to wade through thousands of levels to find the 200 or 20 levels of the sort he/she wants to play? How can level designers cater to players' tastes (or lack thereof) without feedback?

You have to consider the issue of support from the perspective of a greenhorn, and that may not be easy to do if you have been playing Descent from its inception.

3. GAME DEVELOPMENT/EVOLUTION - Any game series that has reached an evolutionary dead-end (real or perceived) has a community that is not long for this world. Developers/Publishers who release editing/mod tools along with their games understand this fact. In its heyday, Interplay apparently had Descent level design contests almost on an annual basis. Some have complained about the quality of some of the resulting levels, but you have to understand the importance of fostering an environment where people have an incentive to at least attempt level creation. So the question is what has the Descent Community done to encourage level design efforts in the last few years? Perhaps you don't have to have contests, but you have to offer some incentive to potential and experienced level designers other than indifference (at best) and heaps of abuse (at worst).

From the perspective of a longer term view, what prospects are there for Community-based evolution of D3 or a successor to D3 (as opposed to commercial prospects)? Some game communities have been obliged to take these efforts into their own hands in order to guarantee the survival of their games. I am sure we all appreciate Kevin Bentley's efforts with regard to the Version 1.5 D3 patches, but the prospects of success for any project are pretty grim when everything hinges on a single individual. What happens after Version 1.5? Is it possible to modify D3 to use a new multiplayer system to replace PXO? Can we come up with a universal Descent multiplayer system to embrace all of the Descent games? There may be ways to do these types of things, but it will require a serious investment of resources by a number of individuals if they are to succeed. And many who initially volunteer to participate will discover that time and resources required are more than they can afford.


All of these issues will require participation, organization, structures, and long-term planning that don't exist (or don't seem to exist) at the moment. I am sure a number of the individuals who would like to participate in these potential efforts have to do so at the expense of other interests, so the question to ask yourself as an individual is whether or not it is worth it.

[Skyalmian]

Yep... why make a level if it's underappreciated and never-played anyway

Make that level a single player level. Considering the terrible lack of them, they are all appreciated.

[iten]

Actually, akula65, your first point of advertising is one I was thinking of myself. Something that would make people who had not heard of the series go "Wow" would be really great.

Unfortunately, I am artistically clueless. Is anyone here good at that stuff?

[Sergeant Thorne]

But for some reason this community has a slow uptake of such "good" mods, and when people go about creating these mods or even good levels, they are discouraged by a bunch of whiney arrogant people who are filled with two things, opinions and $h!t.

It's my take that none of the really good level designers have been driven off in this way, they've just been busy, or have moved on to other things.

No, really. He's right.

Yep... why make a level if it's underappreciated and never-played anyway

I'll show you why...

Musing: I wonder if sometimes people just don't get a chance to play a level enough to really get to like it. Many levels, given some playing time, would be really popular, I would think. But whining/feeling sorry for ourselves never gets us anywhere.

[El Ka Bong]

Chant it all together now..!
"Hare .. !hare .. D3 D3 .. Hare Hare !.. 6Df ! 6dF.. ! Hare HAre .. ! SLW SLW .. ! (.. tingle sounds from finger cymbals, bongo drums, as we dance our mantras ... )"

Also, I suggest setting up Hoard games and Hyper anarchy really help to change the flavour of the ol' overplayed levels like Skybox, Abend, ... Just imagine SLW as A Hoard Game !

[Stryker]

I think what we need to do is get ads out there on some of the major gaming sites. We need several skilled 3D artists to revise some of the graphics of D3 (total weapon graphics upgrade, anyone?). We need revisions of the D3 ships with more polys (hey, with everyone's hardware these days, who says the game can't be pretty and run fast?). In short, we need to get a team of modders to release a new gametype with totally improved graphics. Not new gameplay, new graphics. (though for some time I've been thinking of making an Alien vs Human mod for D3).

Once we get a better-looking D3, we can record demos, make them available to gamers at large, get some attention on major gaming sites. When we've done that, we should get some new players. I'm willing to head a team to do a total graphics conversion, but I' d need people to work with me on this one. There's no way I could do it by myself.

[akula65]

To illustrate Stryker's point, you can look at Sierra's Grand Prix Legends. Just compare the 1998 demo with the new 2004 user-modded demo which you can get here:

http://www.3dgamers.com/games/grandprix ... downloads/

This game's community is thriving in part because of these kinds of technical upgrades.

I am not saying yea or nay for what Stryker is proposing, but I do think the Descent community needs to come to a consensus on where it is going so people like Stryker don't get left in the lurch should they undertake such a project. Thanks, Stryker.

[[TA]One]

I don't know what can be done to help the situation with D1/D2 multiplayer. I've never played D1 or D2 online.

As for D3, after PXO went down I posted about an idea I had that would get more people playing, and playing more often. I posted about the idea here: phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2528&sid=d70068d8 ... 74c621afed

I don't see any viable methods of getting "new blood" to help the current situation with Descent. The goal, as I see it, should be to make things easier for the old and/or current players to play - and play more often. The link I posted above is a thread that describes a program that would actually accomplish this goal.

If I knew how to I would write the program that I describe in that link above, myself. Obviously, the tough part about implementing my idea is first finding a programmer who wants to help D3 and actually grasps the concept of how that program would get people playing more often.

Are there any programmers out there willing to help D3?

[Kyouryuu]

I think I rest my case.

I know that if I ever did another Descent level, it would be singleplayer. I really have no interest in building multiplayer maps. I don't play multiplayer and, quite frankly, I don't enjoy it. Descent is dominated by a large number of gurus who live and breathe the game. As such, a pansy like me gets his ass whooped constantly. This is not my idea of having a good time. Maybe it's yours, but I don't set out to master every game I come across. I'm not going to sit there and kill the Atma Weapon who has 1,000,000 HP just because it's there. I'm not going to catch every Pokemon because it lives. I'm not going to find all 500 coins to unlock the secret bonus movie. I play to have fun, and my idea of fun is not masochistic. What makes games like Unreal and Quake work is that on any given server, there is a broad range of skill types playing. You have a few newbies who stand around and shoot. You have a few average combatants who dodge and move around. And you have a few really good players. But no one in particular dominates and even the newbies get lucky once in a while. And we die and we respawn and it's so pointless and fast that we're having fun playing the game and aren't paying any attention to frag counts.

Descent doesn't have that. It's dominated by players to whom is might as well be their exclusive game. Newbies don't stand a chance. We need an entire clan of newbies just to have fun. And, suffice it to say, it's not fun otherwise. That's why it's no surprise to me why there's never an infusion of new blood into the series. You scare everyone away and then wonder why they all left.

Same goes for your dead development community. You bitched and you whined. You didn't try new levels. You stuck with the tired and ancient crap like Abend 2, Worlds Apart 2, and Burning Indika 3 (and for that matter, Halcyon), and eventually we threw our arms up and decided "Well, I guess there's no use making new stuff. They're estatic with what they have." And we packed our bags and left.

[Suncho]

It is time to get back into playing heavy amounts of Descent. Its not time to start playing just D3 either, its time to play ALL the Descent games, online and regularly. You CAN play D1/D2 over the internet. Kali is free as well as flawed. You can re-register every 30 days for the monthly trial account and not spend a penny. Oh, and if youâ??re too lazy to do that, download D1x and use the UDP/IP support.

Can you get my joystick to work? I've been trying for years.

[Zero!]

i saw couple of quotes saying "i dont play cus i suck and getting owned isn't what i call a fun time"
i dont think anyone likes getting owned.
what seprarates us fom ground pounders is that we took the time to get good at a game that isn't the same fag holding a gun at the right side of the screen. u dont like getting owned? practice. i sucked just like u guys, so i decided the only way to get good is to play the hardcore pilots, then after playing them for awhile my skill will improve and ill be able to hang out with regular pilots and have more fun.i busted my ass in bi3 playing ppl like barry,sunc,jf,birdy,shadowfox,xeon,bah,krom,narc and countless others and im happy at the skill level im at. so plz dont say that the reason ur not playing d3 is cus u suck, cus that is bull if u suck and have a good time great! if u suck and dont like it, PRACTICE.

[Trackball]

The Kali Descent group has become useless. 95% of the people just sit in chat. The rest, simply are not playing enough. Two weeks ago, it was pretty hard to find a good D1/D2 game. This week it is almost impossible. Whenever a game is proposed, you will receive no response.

To those who said they have never tried D1/D2 multiplayer, I hope you will choose to begin playing. D1/D2 are just as fun as the more graphically advanced D3.