Descent 4 (Open D4)

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:46 am

Hi,

Several freinds and I have loved Descent 3 for a while. We used to play Parallax on Saturdays. But now that Parallax is down, we are limited to occasional LAN parties. So I went to look for a Descent 4. Orbital-inc started it, and was a few months from release, when Volition stopped them. Now Orbital-inc considers that a very touchy subject (you cannot even talk to them without them closing the topic). Now orbital's site is down. Interplay, Parallax, Outrage, and Volition have 2 year old sites. It is dying. I cannot find any modern game like Descent anymore. This is where Open Source comes in handy.

Me and a freind would like to start a Open Source Descent 4 project. I have 3D skills, and he has some programming skills. Descent used to be a huge community. We are trying to get peoples attention. We want to get a huge community helping. Can you a) Contribute to this project or b) tell me how to get the d3 Communities attention.

We currently have no good web site (www.freewebs.com/opend4), and the project will not start for a short while, becasue we are figuring out what engine we will use (http://www.radonlabs.de/ is the current one we like). We need a lot of awsome programmers, 3D artists and such. Begginers would be good too. We want at least 20 Devs, that way it could get done in a couple of years or so. First a Single player Campaign will be made, then Multiplayer stuff. Then a Massive Multiplayer server would be added. That way we could all play in a huge community!
Think about it, 200 pyros vs. 200 Magnums. That would be awsome!

I saw what High Octane Games was doing, and they thought this was a good idea.

Send your emails and replies to (of course) this Forum, and mayawerks@hotmail.com

Right now a Domain and webspace would be nice, a webmaster to take care of it, and a programmer +Modelers to speed stuff up would be needed. I would appreciate if everyone here would help.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:11 am

At what point in time was descent a "huge community"?

Have fun with your project.

B-

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:18 am

We want at least 300 Devs, that way it could get done in a couple of years or so

Are there even 300 players left?

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:19 am

Would you guys help?

Vindicator · Post by **Vindicator** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:39 am

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:41 am

I'll help. E-mail me (link in profile). I do 3D modeling, level design, and a little programming (not much, though).

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:44 pm

Sure. Also check out www.suncho.com for online gaming information -- no need to restrict yourself to LAN parties

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:09 pm

This is another example of the sarcasm that is killing this community. Geez.....you guys.

Thenior
I don't have programming skills, but at least I'm not sarcastic. Good luck with your project.

Bettina

Mr. Perfect · Post by **Mr. Perfect** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:50 pm

If you take a look at the thread stickied at the top of the multiplayer forum you can read up on someone who's doing just what you're proposing. A mysterious group of Descenters and other people are creating a game called Core Decision, which will basicly be D1/D2 re-done with today's technology.

Dunno what kind of progres these people have made, but they've aparently got some sort of test version made.

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:28 pm

Thank you for some better replies.
I am aware of highoctanes project (core descision). I talked to them about it, since I do not want to compete with them. They thought we should keep going, and make this game.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:58 pm

Bet,
I wasn't being sarcastic. I've been here since the begining of D3 and even at the top of the curve, I'm sure D3 didn't have 300 players. I wouldn't even say D3 had 200 on-line players, so I don't think Merlin was being sarcastic either.

Sarcasm didn't kill this community, the game ran its course. It's pushing 5 years old and to be honest, I think the length of time this game stayed alive is simply amazing considering its fan base. The only thing that kept it alive this long is 20-30 core(and half-pipe har har) players.

B-

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:31 pm

I cant offer any help, but good luck with your endevors.

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:32 pm

Thenior wrote:But now that Parallax is down, we are limited to occasional LAN parties.

Why don't you play with us online?

Thenior wrote:Interplay, Parallax, Outrage, and Volition have 2 year old sites.

Interplay no longer has a website as they got evicted from their building. But before that happened in May, it was up-to-date.

Parallax no longer has a website, but they did until earlier this year even though it was really just a placeholder site linking to some old Descent and Freespace stuff and the Outrage and Volition Websites.

Outrage no longer has a website as Outrage no longer exists as of July 2003.

Volition's website may be out of date, but the folks over there are working on some important projects for THQ including the Punisher game for PS2 and XBOX. Volition is no longer affiliated with Interplay.

Thenior wrote:Me and a freind would like to start a Open Source Descent 4 project.

What led you to go with the open source route?

Thenior wrote:We want at least 300 Devs, that way it could get done in a couple of years or so.

Why 300? How did you get that number? 300 seems like a lot to me.

Smaller numbers are often better early in a project. A good idea might be to have 2 or 3 people hammer out the actual design of the game, so when you get more people on the team. If the framework of the project is designed in.

Thenior wrote:First a Single player Campaign will be made, then Multiplayer stuff.

Why do the singleplayer first? How do you plan to get past the ever-so-common weapon balancing problem that arises from creating the singleplayer before the multiplayer?

Thenior wrote:Think about it, 200 pyros vs. 200 Magnums. That would be awsome!

How would it be awesome?

Thenior wrote:Right now a Domain and webspace would be nice, a webmaster to take care of it, and a programmer +Modelers to speed stuff up would be needed. I would appreciate if everyone here would help.

Does that mean that you already have a design team in place and the design of the game is well-documented so the programmers can just work off of those specs?

Does it also mean that you have already had a team of concept artists design the look of the game so the modelers know how their models should look?

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:35 am

Fusion pimp - Descent did once have a huge community. But it was a long time ago. I think you'd have to go back to about 1996, when Descent 2 was released, and Kali was probably at about its peak... there were literally hundreds of people playing at any one time then.

I never really got to see any more than the end of those days, as I came on the scene in late 1997; but D2 still frequently had 2 or 3 sockets full of games at that point.

Descent 3 never really picked up the same level of popularity.

Edit: I should also note that a fan-built Descent 4 has been tried before, and it didn't work. There were two notable differences though; firstly, it wasn't going to be open-source, and secondly they actually intended to get it published.

At least this way you won't have legal hurdles (if anyone is still around to pick up the case any more).

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:39 am

300 developers? in a community that has maybe 100 active users, max?

BlueFlames · Post by **BlueFlames** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:59 am

This sounds just like all the previous 'community' D4 projects, except with an accelerated timetable. It's already too ambitious, as has been pointed out by the number of developers and intent to create a massively multiplayer element. There's hardly enough people left in the Descent player base to fill a non-massive 32-player game.

Call me a cynic or a realist, whichever you prefer, but I don't foresee this project getting very far.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:03 pm

Its dead. Stop beating it. Let go.

Vertigo · Post by **Vertigo** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:34 am

I see some people still believe in faeries...

Most DBBers however are starting to get a grip on reality...

As beo said...

Beowulf wrote:Its dead. Stop beating it. Let go.

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:40 am

I guess I will keep on beating it.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:03 am

300 coders!? You only need 5. 300...MS Office doesn't even have that many developers on it.

ixion · Post by **ixion** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:40 am

rant {

you guys really should calm down.. yes, DESCENT is dead, but I sure hope the idea of a 360-degree game is not. Who cares what you call it, if it's a renamed sequel, or if it's something brand new.. there needs to be a true 360 degree game of today.. not something over 6 years old..

said that to say, stop discouraging every little endeavor that comes across trying to revive the true 3d gaming experience.. it'd be nice to see where these things go, if they go anywhere.. give the people a chance and stop acting like they're bringing up old war wounds by discussing the subject...

};

Suncho · Post by **Suncho** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:57 am

Testiculese wrote:300 coders!? You only need 5. 300...MS Office doesn't even have that many developers on it.

He said 300 developers. It's still a lot. But on a game project, most of the developers are artists.

Delkian · Post by **Delkian** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:02 am

Just a few people aren't enough because they probably aren't going to work on the project full-time.

I might try to give some assistance at times (but probably not as a full developer) when 1) I have time 2) I know more about the project, for example how I could contribute and 3) I decently know something useful for such a project (I'm not a C/C++ programmer but have some basic programming skills in some other languages).

D3 is dead, and it's pretty much the only game that's still keeping the community together, but a new game needn't have the exact same player base, does it?

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:32 am

Thenior, best of luck to you. Don't be incredibly surprised if things don't work out in the end, as this does happen and has happenedto similar projects, but I at least am rooting for you to be the exception

.

Robo · Post by **Robo** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:57 am

I used to be on the ODS Level Design team, and I just came in here to see the topic starter get bashed like everyone else who mentions the name of the game

Happens all the time. Shame.

Good luck Thenior anyway

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:43 pm

Gotta a website up. yes, I know I copied Descent-networks stuff, but it is a start, and I do not think they will mind. www.freewebs.com/opend4

Topher · Post by **Topher** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:51 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:...which will basicly be D1/D2 re-done with today's technology.

Actually I already did that as my own kind of personal project...

Robo · Post by **Robo** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:56 pm

Thenior wrote:I know I copied Descent-networks stuff, but it is a start, and I do not think they will mind

Actually mate, I think they probably will...

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:29 pm

Copying ANY web site without permission is against the law. I'd remove it now and redo it yourself.

Trackball · Post by **Trackball** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:37 pm

Another Doomed D4 project.

Unix · Post by **Unix** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:49 pm

Trackball wrote:Another Doomed D4 project.

x2

Robo · Post by **Robo** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:26 pm

See, look, bashing

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:35 pm

ok, I will remove it

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:09 pm

ok, I changed it.

Now I have several questions:
What flight system is overall wanted? d1/d2 or d3?
What weapons? Besides the descent series, and some made up weapons would be nice.
Should Radar be implemented?
Should a target system be implemented?
Should Guide bot be there?
Should there be only new robots, only old, or both?
What ships are wanted?
How many single player levels are wanted (be realistic)?
What Multiplayer system is wanted? (Anarchy, CTF, etc.)
What side should Material Defender be on? (CED or PTMC)
Should original Music be used, completely redone, or a remix of the original?

Trackball · Post by **Trackball** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:28 pm

Remake Descent 1. Do it well, and you shall be worshipped for all eternity. Fail, and we shall feast upon your soul.

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:48 pm

Well, I have never played descent 1, except for the demo for like 1 minute, and as I have Win XP, I cannot get it to run. I do have Descent 2 though, what are the main differences?

NOTE: I do admit that 300 devs was high. It was a exageration, and was not meant to be literal.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:17 pm

Go play D1 some. Then come back and talk to us about a remake.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:56 pm

If you can find D1 out there, it should be possible to get it to work at least -marginally- using the D1x Win32 builds (version 1.43). That'll at least give you an idea of the gameplay and flow, even if the sounds suck or the joystick doesn't work.

The main differences in D1 compared to D2 are
- Better weapon balance; I'm sure you know which ones in D2 were original. With the Fusion stronger and Spreadfire faster, and quad level 4 stronger as well, they had the weapons nearly perfect.
- The player ship was faster; in D2 they slowed it down to make the afterburner seem useful. The D2 Pyro with afterburners is still faster, of course, but the D1 Pyro is around half-way between the D2 non-AB and with AB speeds.
- It just seemed creepier. Textures were grittier and less cartoony, and the robots had some downright evil sounds.

In response to your other questions (I really think you should make it a poll, since the thread will get cluttered with opinions this way, but anyway):
"What flight system is overall wanted? d1/d2 or d3?"

Definitely D1. If you're going to include afterburners, don't gimp the standard ship to do it.

"What weapons? Besides the descent series, and some made up weapons would be nice."

Some of the weapons from the Descent series would be useful; near-essentials are the Fusion cannon, Plasma cannon, and lasers of some sort. The Smart missile is also a mainstay.
I'd recommend either the Vulcan or Gauss, or a combination between the two, but please don't call it 'Vauss'. That's just weird.
Personally I'd steer away from a railgun-type weapon, but if you can think of a way to balance it it's not so bad.
However, weapons are traditionally one of the last things you try to figure out, I think. Once you have the main 3D engine working, then they can go in.

"Should Radar be implemented?"

No. Radar traditionally doesn't work too well in a 3D environment like Descent, and it doesn't add much to the gameplay either.

"Should a target system be implemented?"

No. None of the Descent games had one, and it's really not too useful either. Not knowing how much you've really damaged your enemy can produce some interesting psychological effects; people don't know how close they are to beating a boss, and that makes it more intense.

"Should Guide bot be there?"

Yes, but only when it's -really- needed. If the levels aren't that confusing, or the exit or other objectives is easy to find, don't include one; it just gets in the way.

"Should there be only new robots, only old, or both?"

Both. Redesigned classics can be awesome.

"What ships are wanted?"

Pyro-GX is a must, or a variant of it. Some people would say limit it to that, but I wouldn't be against adding more; perhaps a different implementation than D3 is warranted though, in that what ships you can take are level-specific, perhaps.
Again, an issue for balancing when the bulk of the game is ready.

"How many single player levels are wanted (be realistic)?"

Between 15 and 30, ideally.

But hell, just come up with a story, make it reasonably long, and put in as many levels as you need for it. Whether they're seven really big ones, or 30 medium-size to small ones, or 50 really small ones, I don't care much.

What I -would- like to see is secret levels and normal levels woven together in a more interesting way.

And for the record, I am quite willing to help your project out on level design and building.

"What Multiplayer system is wanted? (Anarchy, CTF, etc.)"

Anarchy is a must, and keep the name. Not Deathmatch, or something tacky like that.

Include CTF, and take it directly from D3. Even if there's a lot I don't like about D3, its flag was just plain -awesome-. Levels like Halycon proved that nicely.

"What side should Material Defender be on? (CED or PTMC)"

PTMC is dead. I wouldn't try to revive it.

My suggestion is, find a new enemy and write a new plot. The Descent storyline was a bit clunky anyway, and Outrage did quite a job making it work in Descent 3.

Keep the CED though, even if it doesn't play an active role. But the MD, as always, plays the side of the 'good guys', so try to maintain that.

Certainly story-dependent.

"Should original Music be used, completely redone, or a remix of the original?"

New music, but remixes of original D1 and D2 music would be nice as well. Not the staple though; just on occasion to pick up the attention of old-school players and make them think "hey, that's cool".

Descent 3 had some nice music at parts as well, but it didn't lend itself so much to remixing. Its idea of music that progresses with the level was a good one; however I'd like to see more energy pumped into it than D3 used.

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:25 pm

Oh great. Someone smoking the crack again.

HyperHorse · Post by **HyperHorse** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:43 am

to all the naysayers... STFU unless you're actually going to contribute something useful.
i dont need to remind u that there's a virus that's been going for the same period time, and its called
COUNTERSTRIKE. pitiful game that...