Reforming attitudes (was "It is time to reform")

[Gooberman]

I miss playing with D3k. The d3k boycott is what killed the D3tl and D3-online for a lot of us, including me. You lost a lot of great players because stupid ass team leaders couldn't get off their high horse and realize that they just went down, fair and square.

I miss playing with d3k. But I don't miss the begging for games, the constant cheat/hack drama, the players who couldn't just accept the fact that someone else is better, (And I am not referring to myself, I was definitely 2nd string in TA, but Monkey, Krom, Bah, they just fucked other teams up and some couldn't handle it.)

You get better by getting owned: one summer I played Barry 1on1 like every week. I never beat him, but I sure got better! I know I have played against Krom more then with him, never have beaten him, but it sure made me better.

The teams who cry hack at a lost are destined to permanently suck.

So they go to witch hunting, name calling, and then boycotts. And they make damn sure to avoid the lans! Why donâ??t those pansie cheat accusers come to the Lans and tell Monkey he cheats there? You wanna know why they donâ??t come? Itâ??s because he would whip their ass 10 fold on Lan and playing on their machine.

No, I don't miss any of that at all.

D3 is a Lan only game for me now. If you want to play me, come to AZ and drink margaritas into the wee hours of the night with me BFDD, DG, Papercut, Scoobydoo, Bunyip, Kyle, and anyone else that wants to come.


But no more online. The d3k boycott worked, congrats on what you have now.

/rant++

<3

[[TA]One]

Goob, you hijacked this thread, turning it into a "why D3k doesn't play" thread. This isn't the place. We all have our personal gripes when it comes to D3. We've all had to deal with the fact that the negativity in this gaming community always seems to overwhelm the positive.

And I don't think it was your intention, but your post only reinforces the negativity. It offers nothing positive. This thread is not the place for personal gripes. As a "Descent Mulitiplayer moderator" you should know better. In fact, you should delete your post because it doesn't belong here. Start your own thread on "why D3k doesn't play" if you feel the need, or move your post to the No Holds Barred forum.

Furthermore, if you can't understand why some want to revitalize D3 multiplayer or have a positive discussion sans the negativity and personal issues, then there is no way in hell you should be a moderator in this forum. No way in hell! Criticism is fine, as long as it's "constructive" criticism. But you aren't offering any constructive criticism. If you don't play online anymore and are only here to obstruct, then you should resign as multiplayer moderator.

I'll end this by stating for the record that, of D3k's roster, you were definitely one of the more likable players. And I'm sorry for the tough love Goob. But honestly... you should know better.

[Gooberman]

One, check the thread again, there are numerous posts about why certain people don't play. The level selection, they would rather chat, they just suck, they just dont want too.

That is mine, and the reason that a large portion of D3k players that left. It's the reality.

We've all had to deal with the fact that the negativity in this gaming community always seems to overwhelm the positive.

I could handle the negativity just fine. We all lose are cool, we all have thought "hack" when maybe it wasn't.

It was the boycott that drove me and others out. I was on the team for 5 years, and we were boycotted out! Trust me, there is some valid criticism there!

This is a thread on reforming. It is my personal belief that nothing needs more reforming then certain players refusing to play other players. I don't believe we will get a massive flow of new players. The only way this game will last, is keeping the ones it has. It's not my intention to hijack the thread, but that is something that needs reforming!

D3 has died some, and I don't think its the levels, I don't think its the age. I think those are just smoke screnes. But if Trackball sends me a pm saying he would rather keep it at that, I will delete my posts.

As for mod, this forum has more to do with Lans then online play. Just check the description. Like I said, I still lan this game regularly.

I know I sound harsh, but having players/teams refuse to play others because "I know you favor the shield hack" is harsh.

[[TA]One]

Goob, I don't need to "check the thread again". I know what the others posted here. And if all you typed was that the D3k boycott is what stopped you and other D3k players from playing online, then that would be fine.

Maybe D3 multiplayer only means "LAN" for you these days, but the majority of D3-multiplayer-forum posters who actually play this game mainly play online, not LAN. I don't need to "check the description" of this forum. And I also know that the majority who post in these forums don't actually play D3 anywhere.

The reason I believe your post - or at least a portion of it - does not belong in this thread is because you made things personal by specifically naming a pilot and calling him stupid. And I singled you out because as a moderator, you should know better.

Making personal attacks only gets threads closed. As a LAN-only player, I guess you don't care if this thread goes down in flames. And as the forum moderator, I guess you aren't accountable to anyone.

[Krom]

Hey [TA]One, I think Goobermans viewpoint is a valid one, TA was one of the teams that took part in the boycott of D3k and that was the beginning of the end for the D3TL. As a whole the community killed off the active teams which was very self distructive. The D3TL ended up belonging to III (140-2 record and both teams that have beaten them are now retired). At the time when III formed D3k had already been more or less dead because of the boycott and so D3k didnt have the time or players to even play matches anymore, let alone actively compete with a strong team. The attitudes on the D3TL also reflected everywhere else, players and teams were spat upon just because they were better and that drove them away, other players saw that happening and lost interest in the game because without the strong pilots to set an example the game just isnt that good.

You cant blame the death of the game on just one aspect or another, but you also clearly cant ignore the fact that all the medicore and newbie teams killed off the top teams and players and a game cant survive without the top players.

[Sirian]

Many fans are upset with Major League Baseball because money to buy more talent resides with certain teams. The playing field is not level. This diminishes the sport for all involved. Sure, if you're a Yankees fan, their 28 (?) World Series titles seems cool, but how cool is it when you also factor they've been the richest team in the largest market with the most purchase power? Buying your way to victory is lame.

D3TL players did not take care of what they had. Too many strong players accumulated in one place, and for what? That was short-sighted. To see folks from both sides pointing fingers and throwing mud... it's sad.

Players put their clans and teams ahead of the league. Leadership within the teams failed. I saw that coming but could not do anything about it. Why should I put in tons of work to something I could not personally enjoy? Without a high speed connection, I was essentially locked out of the fun. It wasn't just the best players, but also the best total team connect quality and the quality or lack thereof on the servers, that undercut the game balance.

Without good game balance, you don't have good gaming. Descent suffers from a lack of good servers. The server ops, too, want to put their server to use. They leave up good levels and get fewer players, then give up on the good levels and go back to the popular levels. No long term vision, no leadership, just going with the flow of supply and demand.

Lots of reasons why Descent faded, and more reasons why D3 never really took off. The lack of true peer to peer to support a viable D3 ladder hurt. So did the "fix" to stop the afterburner bug. The game got poleaxed by that: both the cheat uproar, and the way the fix hurt the game quality from there onward. The mouse vs joystick issue. The less than friendly interface with PXO. Framerate issues. The way that the old timers preyed on the newbies and drove them away. Most of all, the hardware requirements: 3D card needed just to play, at a time when most users did not have one yet; the need for broadband; tying their fate to Glide/3DFX, which turned out to be a sinking ship -- and more.


Descent was fun while it lasted, but all things end.


- Sirian

[Top Gun]

Not all things have to end. All the points you mention are well and good, but you're forgetting something: most of them happened before many of the current players started playing D3. Why should we continue to concern ourselves with the drama of the past? I don't know anything about afterburner bugs or team drama, and frankly, I don't care. Get over it. Instead, look to the future and what we can do about it. Forget the troubles of the past and look ahead; it's only by doing that that Descent can continue to survive.

[kurupt]

Goob, I don't need to "check the thread again".

i think you do need to check the thread again. D3k was one of the largest and most active teams in the game. we accounted for what, maybe 20% of the active community in the past 2 years? so what happened when the d3 community boycotted d3k? D3 lost 20% of its population to halo, because thats where we went when we left.

i think that makes goobs post very valid. d3 needs to reform its attitude because its attitude is one of the reasons the number of players is dwindling. only a small handful of d3k plays anymore, so realistically you didnt lose 20%, you lost 18%. thats still pretty bad, isnt it? now theres only one team who's really active, and a large portion of players who still play that arent on that team are subway dancer players, and we really cant count them as part of the community because thats all they will ever do is play subway dancer, and how many of us will really ever see them?

edit: replied before i read second page

You scare everyone away and then wonder why they all left.

thats what i was getting it, and so was goob.

[kurupt]

oh yeah, forgot to mention that NT is gone. thats another 20% of the community

[Suncho]

The team is gone. The players who were on the team are still here. It's not as if we went to another game or something.

[[TA]One]

Krom and Kurupt, if you read my second post to Goob "again" you'll see that my main problem with his post is not that he didn't have a valid viewpoint when he brought up the D3k boycott. AGAIN - as I've already explained - I felt he crossed the line with what he said about the RIP player. (Gooberman has since done the right thing and edited his post, deleting the player's name.)

And Krom, as for you stating that Team Alliance was one of the teams that participated in the D3k boycott; I can tell you that I honestly don't recall the details of why TA joined the boycott. But I do know my team well enough to know that it wasn't because any TA member thought D3k was "better". Not that you specifically implied this about TA. But even if I were able to remember the details of why TA took part in the boycott, I'm sure that this thread would not be the place to discuss it.

And for the record, TA was not part of any agenda - real or imaginary - to drive away strong teams. Not that you specifically stated TA was guilty of this, either.

TA had some awesome pilots. Our best could hang with the best of any other team. But TA was more about recruiting players with good attitudes than recruiting the strongest pilots. Though we were often on the lookout for strong pilots, as well.

Good connect or bad connect, strong pilot or not so strong pilot - ALL of our pilots were given an equal opportunity to play. Sure, that hurt our D3TL record - but the D3TL was never the most important aspect of D3 for TA. TA was there when the D3TL was formed; but you could have boycotted, banned, or tossed us out of the D3TL... and it really wouldn't have mattered much to us. The camaraderie was the most important thing to our team. The amount of fun we had playing the occasional D3TL game just can't compare with the countless hours of fun we had in non-D3TL games and just chatting and joking around. Apparently the D3TL meant more to D3k. Whether D3k meant that much to the D3TL or D3 is debatable.

Sirian, you brought up some good points. Especially about how connect/server quality can undercut the game balance. That's probably the main reason why D3TL games never really mattered much to me. It always seemed that the only servers to host D3TL games were lossy servers for too many of us. A player can deal with a bad ping, but not bad loss. The lack of good servers has always hurt D3.

As for trying to balance teams, that is an impossibility when it comes to a league. You can't change human nature. Most people want to build or join the 'Yankees'. And I think it's normal and okay for players to want to do that. I was asked to join what could very well have been called the 'Yankees' of the D3TL. And if I hadn't already built so many friendships in TA, I would probably have joined them, too. It's fun being on a team where you are annihilating the competition - especially if the competition is strong. I know, because TA did its fair share of annihilating back in the day.

Any league of teams will always have teams that want to dominate and will dominate - this will never change. Also, teams are dynamic. In D3 you don't buy strong players; so what is a strong team today could diminish into a weak team tomorrow. But it's more fun to see a weak team grow strong. I guess NT was a good example of that.

-One

[kurupt]

kurupt, while I greatly appreciate what HighOctane is doing, I'm not going to write off the Descent games because of the game they're developing. That would be like telling people to stop playing, say, Counterstrike because Doom 3 came out. It's the same FPS style of gameplay, but you'd never be able to say that it was the same game. The same holds true for Descent and HighOctane's game; they're completely different things, but it's possible to play and enjoy both, just as many people play Counterstrike and Doom 3. I, for one, will keep playing D3 after HighOctane releases their game.

say that paragraph again and replace doom 3 with halflife 2. you'd look like an idiot then we really won't know whether or not high octanes game will be to descent 3 like counterstrike is to doom 3 or counterstrike is to halflife 2 until we actually see it anyway. if its a good game and worthy of the unofficial title of descent 4, then wouldnt you suggest that playing that game instead of d3 would help the descent community more than sticking with d3 would? thats what i mean. if the new game sucks, the community wont really be any better off anyway. we wont know that for at least a little while longer though.

Krom and Kurupt, if you read my second post to Goob "again" you'll see that my main problem with his post is not that he didn't have a valid viewpoint when he brought up the D3k boycott. AGAIN - as I've already explained - I felt he crossed the line with what he said about the RIP player. (Gooberman has since done the right thing and edited his post, deleting the player's name.)

i didnt see goob's original post, so i didnt know he mentioned a specific player. but i did know exactly who he was talking about after i read his edited post and i assumed you did too. i know who he was talking about because he pretty much singlehandedly ruined d3 for my entire team with his attitude and hipocrisy. if that name was anything other than DwnUnder i would be incredibly surprised.

And Krom, as for you stating that Team Alliance was one of the teams that participated in the D3k boycott; I can tell you that I honestly don't recall the details of why TA joined the boycott. But I do know my team well enough to know that it wasn't because any TA member thought D3k was "better". Not that you specifically implied this about TA. But even if I were able to remember the details of why TA took part in the boycott, I'm sure that this thread would not be the place to discuss it.

i was not on the team as long as alot of the d3k guys, but 0% of the time i was a member did any of them hack in any way, and i was with them way before the boycotts started. TA joined in the boycott later on, and i know at least one of your members told krom the reason was because we were full of hackers. if thats not boycotting a team because they are better than you, then i dont know what is. dwnunder raising such a stink and boycotting us set a precedent, that it was ok to do something like that, and thats when other teams joined in. nobody was boycotting us before he was. it would be one thing if his team boycotted us, but trying to get the entire community to do it (and damn near succeeding) makes him the piece of ★■◆● that he is, and he does not deserve the respect of taking something like this to private.

D3k has made up with RIP, but we do not change our stance on that 1 person. the damage had already been done, and even though D3k and RIP patched things up we still had no desire left to continue on with this game.

And for the record, TA was not part of any agenda - real or imaginary - to drive away strong teams. Not that you specifically stated TA was guilty of this, either.

i dont think anyone in d3k ever thought that that was the case. one of your members did state that his opinion was that we hacked, and TA did stop playing matches with us for a long time, but we dont have any ill will toward TA. at least none that i know of. by the time TA joined the boycott it was pretty much just a sprinkle on the cake that had already been iced. we just didnt care anymore.

TA had some awesome pilots. Our best could hang with the best of any other team. But TA was more about recruiting players with good attitudes than recruiting the strongest pilots. Though we were often on the lookout for strong pilots, as well.

Good connect or bad connect, strong pilot or not so strong pilot - ALL of our pilots were given an equal opportunity to play. Sure, that hurt our D3TL record - but the D3TL was never the most important aspect of D3 for TA. TA was there when the D3TL was formed; but you could have boycotted, banned, or tossed us out of the D3TL... and it really wouldn't have mattered much to us. The camaraderie was the most important thing to our team. The amount of fun we had playing the occasional D3TL game just can't compare with the countless hours of fun we had in non-D3TL games and just chatting and joking around. Apparently the D3TL meant more to D3k. Whether D3k meant that much to the D3TL or D3 is debatable.

i remember you guys having 1 really good pilot. i think his name was The_Mighty. that guy could give me a run for my money. we were the same way though. we didnt go out of our way to recruit the best pilots. we never cared enough about our D3TL record to use the best pilots we had in every game either. everyone in D3k played. i played plenty of 3v3 matches with divinity and myzeri, and i had fun. we let drummergirl play in matches, we recruited bonz, haagy, matrix, sting_ray, hemp, cain (who just started playing and gets motion sickness in d3) myzeri, divinity, and a ton of others because they were all cool people, not because they were the best d3 players ever. (sorry if i forgot anyone)

D3k is still around as a team, and we still joke around with each other quite a bit and talk to each other regularly. the D3TL really didnt matter to us that much. when we say we were boycotted, we're not talking about from the D3TL. we're talking about from D3. the teams who boycotted us would not play with anyone on our team period. not in a bi3 anarchy game, not in anything. when you cant play with anyone but yourself because you're so much better than any team out there that they wont play you because you cant be that good legitly, you must be hacking, you dont really want to play the game anymore. we had to tell people who we recruited that they would not be able to play in poublic games with our tag because the tag alone caused games ot empty out. no team should ever have to do that. it was like people thought that since someone joined our team, they were introduced to a plethora of hacks that they could use at their disposal.

most of the teams used the excuse that we hacked, and thats all it was. an excuse. we didnt hack, we were just better. we can take hack accusations no problem anyway, thats not why we retired. it was the fact that almost nobody would play with us. when sitting in chat trying to find a game becuase every one you join empties out takes up all of your free time for gaming, why would you still play the game? thats why we left. our last hope for competition and fun was the occasional D3TL match, but people stopped playing us there too. there were still teams that did play us, but most of them wouldn't be any fun because of the gap in skill or they would be so inactive that we'd only get a match a month. so again, why stick around?

As for trying to balance teams, that is an impossibility when it comes to a league. You can't change human nature. Most people want to build or join the 'Yankees'. And I think it's normal and okay for players to want to do that. I was asked to join what could very well have been called the 'Yankees' of the D3TL. And if I hadn't already built so many friendships in TA, I would probably have joined them, too. It's fun being on a team where you are annihilating the competition - especially if the competition is strong. I know, because TA did its fair share of annihilating back in the day.

Any league of teams will always have teams that want to dominate and will dominate - this will never change. Also, teams are dynamic. In D3 you don't buy strong players; so what is a strong team today could diminish into a weak team tomorrow. But it's more fun to see a weak team grow strong. I guess NT was a good example of that.

-One

what no one seems to remember, is D3k was not the yankees of the D3TL. we were the A's. we did not go out and "buy our talent." it was home grown. when i joined D3k i had just started playing D3. sure, i played d1 for a long time and was one of the better players in my day, but i wasnt that good at d3 until i played with D3k and got better. monkey was the same, krom, goob, bfdd, crown, sky, baal, crack, etc. D3k was not a team full of high priced free agents, we played team ball. we only recruited people who fit in with the team. we could have picked up tons of good players who wanted to be on a dominant team, and there was no team more dominant at the time, but they didnt mesh with us so we passed on them. ROX was the same way. they didnt go out and buy talent, they grew it. all of those guys were team players and learned the game with each other. ROX picked up palzon, wizard and wyno that i recall since ive been playing d3, and none of them were as good as their current members. the only team that i can say really is a yankees is III. thats it. but we often got accused of it and were hated for it. funny how things work.

but anyway, the only point in this thread i really wanted to make was that losing D3k did have an impact on the community. losing 1 team normally wouldnt matter much to a game, but when theres only a few teams left it really takes its toll. and it was the community that drove us off. bots got boycotted alot too because they "hacked." whatever, bots did not hack. i can sympathize with them leaving d3 though. if the community wants to reform, they should reform their attitudes so other teams dont leave for the same reasons D3k and bots did, and for the reason III didnt reveal their roster for a long time after they formed - they knew what would have happened if they did.

fyi, the community pretty much drove us out of halo too, buncha lame ass thirteen year olds.

we didnt love halo like we loved d3 though, so it didnt really matter. we're still very bitter at the d3 community, because we all loved the game so much. we feel like we've been raped of that love. which is why we hate dwnunder.

[Gooberman]

Do you really think that one team's players that don't play the game anymore is a reason that a lot of people would stop playing a game.

Pipsqueak, I don't think you read my quote correctly. I meant "alot of us" in d3k. Which the boycott was the reason.

On the d3tl part, yeah, I definitely think it was the nail in the coffin.

[Krom]

Do you really think that one team's players that don't play the game anymore is a reason that a lot of people would stop playing a game.

Contemplate this for a moment, at its peak D3k often had between 5 and 10 players immedately available to play at any given time, with as many as 15 on rare ocassions. Also at its peak, Descent 3 had at any given time 60-70 players in active games. With so few numbers the loss of just one team will have a impact on the entire game community. The impact wont really be that noticeible at first, but for each team that folds you lose anywhere from half to all of that teams members from steady active play and it all adds up.

[[TA]One]

"TA joined in the boycott later on, and i know at least one of your members told krom the reason was because we were full of hackers. if thats not boycotting a team because they are better than you, then i dont know what is." - Kurupt

It's ignorant statements like that that can jog someone's memory. I remembered some things regarding the D3k boycott that I really didn't want to type here. And I stated that in my last post. But my low tolerance for BS unfortunately has taken away some of my restraints. However, I will keep some of the restraints on in an effort to keep things civil - not that you are showing any example by repeatedly referring to the RIP player by name. And not that the moderators here on the D3k bulletin board seem to care what you type - irregardless of the fact that the RIP player still plays and continues to contribute to this game.

Now... back to the boycott issue. Before we boycotted D3k things were coming out about your team. A very reliable source had a chat log showing some D3k talking about using a bug in Polaris and a flag bug in WA2. Whether or not those D3k players were just joking about exploiting the bugs or serious about using those bugs was not clear.

Also, other informaton from at least one reliable source who was non-TA, non-RIP, and non-D3TL had surfaced about a few D3k using actual hacks; not D3/level bugs. But we in TA did not have any firsthand solid proof that some D3k were definitely hacking. And whether or not RIP had any solid proof, I don't know either.

It was a culmination of a lot of things that caused TA to boycott D3k. During the time period before the boycott, J-oh - a player close to our hearts - quit D3k. And the two D3k alleged hackers quit? D3k during this time period as well, I believe. All of this was going on at the same time that other unflattering rumors about D3k were surfacing. Couple this with the fact that TA - and most teams I believe - did not like the attitude of some of your players who remained, and you can begin to see why TA joined the boycott. Also, we were pretty much done with the D3TL as a whole, long before we boycotted D3k. TA boycotting D3k was more a display of us being tired of all the BS surrounding D3k, than any alleged and unproven hacks. To say that we joined the boycott because we thought that D3k was "better"... again, that statement of yours is laughable.

You stated that a TA member allegedly told Krom that the reason we joined the boycott was because D3k was full of hackers. Again, I don't remember or know exactly how the boycott transpired and what was said to whom, or by whom. If one of our members did say this to Krom - then it was not technically accurate of him to use this as the sole reason for TA to boycott D3k. Especially since, as I've stated, TA did not technically have proof that any D3k member hacked. So if in fact that was the only reason given on behalf of our team, then on behalf of our team I apologize.

But I do not apologize for boycotting D3k. All teams end up with a few bad apples. And I'm talking about players with attitude problems, not hackers. TA had players who displayed the wrong attitude. We weren't exempt. We did let those players know that it wouldn't be tolerated, though. The fact that D3k's bad apples seemed to have the biggest mouths and were allowed to continue unabated - not unlike moderator Goob allowing Kurupt to continue bashing that RIP player here in this thread, unabated - had more to do with TA joining the boycott than anything else. Twist the truth into a "we were better so no one liked us" lie if you want - and maybe some teams did in fact think D3k was better and disliked you for it. But with regards to TA, that truly is a lie.

-One

[Krom]

What I find amusing about all this is I recall none other then the great [TA]One calling me a hacker in games before. Course he didnâ??t know it was me and just about every member of any given team has snapped and called me a hacker before. Actually I've even had members of TA leave games and come back with hacks just because they thought I was hacking. Both the fly outside the wall type of hacks, along with instakill rapid-fire on most or all weapons including vauss. I took a lot of abuse from TA members in games and I still stay quiet when I play. And yes, all of the pilots I am talking about here are still members of TA as far as I know.

"So if in fact that was the only reason given on behalf of our team, then on behalf of our team I apologize."

I am inclined accept that myself, can't say what anyone else will do, its more then I have heard from any other team or player yet. However, On the boycott, I expect nothing from anyone, I have had enough of that, even now people still try to sound like "we are the victims here of evil nazi moderators allowing their sinister minions to flame our friends". I can't really see gooberman letting his bias as a D3k member getting in the way of his moderating of this forum, I also know that goobermans style of moderating is invisible because he hardly ever does anything. If you have a problem with the moderators, contact them or the administrators via email, don't try to strengthen your position by complaining about it in the thread.

[Hostile]

Have you guys tried Battlefield Vietnam????? It's AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

[kurupt]

krom was nice enough not to say it, but it was [TA]Venom. he would do it to me all the time. i'd come in alaised and put a spanking on him and he'd leave and come right back with wall hacks. it got to a point where i would seek him out just to see if he would do it, and sure enough he did.

[Zero!]

hee @ hostile

[Gooberman]

very reliable source had a chat log showing some D3k talking about using a bug in Polaris and a flag bug in WA2. Whether or not those D3k players were just joking about exploiting the bugs...

One, please step back for a second. D3k has had people spy on our private chat conversations. Which you obviously have!

We have had two teams get access to our private forums, with both the intention to "expose" our hidden secret of hacks, corruption, cheating, etc. They came up empty!

That chat log was none of your freaking business!! What right do you have to read a private team conversation? The right thing to do would be to delete that chat file or tell them that you don't want to know whats in it! But no one gives a ★■◆● about the right thing to do with d3k, it was all about the d3k-witch hunt!

So what came out of all this "spying" on my team?

A few level bugs, oh jebus H. Christ, you got us! Spying through our forums (which I think go back to 1999), reading our private chat logs, you got two level bugs!!!! That's not even cheating, thats poor level design! Outrage made one, but I wont mention who made the other....

Letâ??s see TAâ??s scarlet letter. I would bet money that if I had access to private chat logs, and private forums to other teams, most would come up with more then "level bugs".


And if you read the chat log, which you shouldn't have, you would know that we have no freaking clue how to reproduce it. There is no doubt in my mind, (that through the corruption of other teams trying to expose my team),that if the private chat log is legit it has me saying "but I have never been able to reproduce it." Which is true, in the days I have spent in polaris I have fallen outside of the level going through the teleport a handful of times. I have never been able to reproduce it at will.


Your right, we got sick of it. We are all young, and let our mouths get ahead of us. You live you learn, you grow up!

But let what happened to D3k happen to TA, and see how many of you remain calm. Maybe you will, but would you have when you were in your late teens?

As far as mod, people mention each other all the time in this forum. Since I am involved, and I definitely am biased on this issue....

I will defer to Ferno. I will moderate my own actions, if I agree with your comments, as I did.

I hope you can agree that any content edit that I do on either side, will fire back at me. So I think it is best that I defer to Ferno. If you don't agree, then I hope you can at least understand.

And Krom is right, I challange anyone to find 5 things I have modded this year

[Gooberman]

Ok, split finally after like 5 tries of getting "Invalid Session" errors. I hope I got the main posts, if I didn't, sorry.

[BfDiDDy]

Current roster

Shiva
Krom
CrAcK
BFDD
Matrix
Gooberman
Bah
Bonz
DaZeD
Divinity
Drummergirl
HaAGenDaZS
Kurupt
Myzeri
Panty Raider
Skyalmian
Starkiller
Sting Ray
The_Rock
Tweety
Whitewater
Zero


retiered roster

Arran, Beowulf, Crown, Chenjeshu, Deth, Diezman, Eyerate, Flanders, Ferno, Friday, Hacksaw, J_Ho, Monkey, Mad, Maddcow, Martin, MR P0P0, Necros, Neptin, Nexus_One, Punisher, SirWinner, Sitherack, Silver FJ, SolidAir, Trinity, Wakeman, Warlock, Xecutive, Zuruck



Of the 52 pilots that have played with D3k, half have been constant mainstays in the LAN community. Of the top 5 players on D3k, Krom has shown himself as much of a heavy hitter at countless lans, Monkey has gone to no less than 3 chi-town area lans and proven himself without a shadow of a doubt to be even more ruthless on lan than on his 56k. Crown above all odds and his skippy cable connect has shown himself at enough lans to prove that 1. He does not hack, and 2. He sometimes forgets where the power button is(much love brotha ). Lets not forget about Bah, in 2002 beating Birds and Nirvanus with Rock to win the 2 on 2 califest, and going on to place second in the 1 on 1 vs Birds loosing by only 2. While he wont admit it, Goob is by far the best phoenix/flag runner I have ever had the good graces to fly with, and while he is one of the best â??thinkersâ?

[kurupt]

wow, someone went off and "found god."

fag

[Gooberman]

Your right Derrick, its not my intention to make it sound like 100% of the reason I quit d3 online was the boycott and I have come off as such.

There were many factors, that was just one.

It was the last reason, but not nessesarily the main or only reason.

I didn't intend to get on this huge buzz, I had alot of great games, even with Rox! But the boycott was cold, and I still think it is something that would need to be reformed.

[BfDiDDy]

wow, someone went off and "found god."

fag

Much love hommie . BTW god said to stop masterbaiting Matt, you will soon be a yetti on the palms of your hands.

Your right Derrick, its not my intention to make it sound like 100% of the reason I quit d3 online was the boycott and I have come off as such.

There were many factors, that was just one.

It was the last reason, but not nessesarily the main or only reason.

I didn't intend to get on this huge buzz, I had alot of great games, even with Rox! But the boycott was cold, and I still think it is something that would need to be reformed.

Without a doubt. But that is something that we can't change for other people. Just make sure that we as a group(d3k) don't do to other teams.

[kurupt]

are ye prepareth for the almighty force of my smite when i doth beat though yonder in madden 2005 on the eve of morrow?

[BfDiDDy]

fag !

[Ferno]

the boycott was like a punch in the face.

Thanks TA!

[Tyranny]

16 total years between those 3.

I hate these types of lines Other then that, rock on!

[[TA]One]

"What I find amusing about all this is I recall none other then the great [TA]One calling me a hacker in games before." - Krom

Man, do you owe me an apology right now. First of all, a member of the RIP clan used the name One as well. Whether or not he was the one who called you a hacker, I don't know. I'm inclined to believe he didn't... since I've flown aka the past 3 years and have been called a hacker by many, but not him. Second of all, there were two pilots who used the name "[TA]One" and "One" who would join games I was in, back when I was still playing under my clan name. They would try and double-team me in Anarchy or CTF games. One of them was pretty good, the other one sucked... and even though it was two of them against me, they went down easy enough. And I was also informed that they were joining games and typing a whole lot of smack to other players in order to try and make me look bad. But back then, players knew me and knew that I never typed smack unless someone started the smack talk first. So they knew that the two clowns were imposters. 9 out of 10 times when anyone typed smack to me I would type nothing back to them at all. I would just kill them over and over again. I would type-kill them as they tried to type smack to me, and then I would type a smiley face. And I would continue to kill them until I ran them out of the game.

I am sure that if anyone at all used the name One or [TA]One and called you a hacker, then it must have been one of the imposters. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who knows me knows that I have never EVER called a player a hacker unless they were using a blatantly obvious hack like the rapid fire fusion/lasers and/or wall hack. To those types of obvious hackers, I would type "Die Hacker" as I killed them.

But it has always been a rule with me not to type "hacker" to ANYONE in ANY game unless the player is using a blatant hack that everyone in the game has no question is a hack. Players who know me will also vouch for the fact that my aka pilots used to get called a hacker several times a day, back when D3's servers were populated. I was called a hacker by the same players who would never call me a hacker if I was using the name [TA]One. Those who called me a hacker included many well known players who I once respected, from other clans. I began to learn which players were the good sports, and which ones were two-faced. Unfortunately, seeing how two-faced most players were, I started using aka's only. This also killed my interest in going to any Califests.

Also, I think that my last post about the D3k boycott clearly demonstrated how cautious I am about using the term "hacker". Sure, things came out that looked pretty damning to D3k, but in that last post did I call any of D3k hackers? No I didn't. In fact, I apologized to your team if that was the reason my team gave for boycotting you. I think my last post is evidence that substantiates the fact that I would never call you or anyone else a hacker in a game, either. You do owe me an apology.

"Actually I've even had members of TA leave games and come back with hacks just because they thought I was hacking. Both the fly outside the wall type of hacks, along with instakill rapid-fire on most or all weapons including vauss." - Krom

First I have to ask, did these "members of TA" using these hacks actually "come back" using their TA names? And even if these players were using TA names, can you be absolutely sure that they were in fact members of TA? If you can't, then you and Kurupt owe MY TEAM an apology.

About the TA member who Kurupt specifically mentioned. I know him to have a temper. He's a relatively new TA member, who to my knowledge hasn't been playing as of late. Because he is new, he doesn't know my akas and he has in fact lost his temper with me in games. But he pretty much loses it in any game he is in, and types things that he shouldn't. He'd probably be the first to admit that. However, I've never seen him use a hack. He has never "come back" into a game and used a hack against me. If he did, he'd be out of TA in a heartbeat. I also find it strange that you two have never mentioned this to any member of our team, to my knowledge. You should have e-mailed our Team Captain Kracon with the proof that TA members were hacking when you first discovered this. Maybe you did, I don't know. If you don't have absolute proof, then you owe my team an apology and should never have typed this here.

Krom, you said "members of TA". I can tell you that with the exception of a few, I know TA's members pretty well. We've talked about how we wish we knew where to get or how to do the rapid fire and wall hacks for the purpose of hunting down hackers. We all hate hackers with a passion. To this day, no one in TA that I know, knows how to use the rapid fire hack, the wall hack or any other type of hack. No one on my team even knows how to do the level/flag bug exploits. The good thing is that the hackers seem to have stopped playing D3 along with most everyone else. I guess the hackers feel they don't have to ruin a game that is already dead.

If you weren't just blowing smoke out your aZZ, then by all means PM me or e-mail Kracon with the names and proof that these players were hacking, like you should have done from day one. I have the feeling I'm going to have a long wait, or I'll be reading excuses why you don't have the proof. If you do have the proof, then we'll see to it that those players are removed from TA.

Goob, you seem to be all in a huff about that chat log. Re-read my last post about why we boycotted D3k. It was a culmination of things. If that chat log played a part, it played only a small part. I don't even remember the names of the D3k players in that chat log. I gave your members the benefit of the doubt and stated that those D3k members could have been joking about using those exploits. You said you don't know how to reproduce the bug. I'll take your word for it.

"Letâ??s see TAâ??s scarlet letter. I would bet money that if I had access to private chat logs, and private forums to other teams, most would come up with more then 'level bugs'." - Gooberman

LOL. You had access to The Rock and Dazed, former TA members who joined D3k. Both of them had access to our private forums. We never got to know The Rock, but Dazed knew us well enough to invite us to what was to be his wedding. If hacking is a concern for your team, then you could have asked either of those two. If you still keep in touch with Dazed, then I'm sure he would tell you the truth that no one in TA knows how to do a hack of any kind.

-One

[Skyalmian]

If you weren't just blowing smoke out your aZZ, then by all means PM me or e-mail Kracon with the names and proof that these players were hacking, like you should have done from day one. I have the feeling I'm going to have a long wait, or I'll be reading excuses why you don't have the proof. If you do have the proof, then we'll see to it that those players are removed from TA.

"You have 1 new message."
For those that want to read the message, it's at the D3kBB.

[TheCops]

i know i'm funna get slammed for this...

but do you ever step back and say to yourself:
"all this drama over a game... why is there all this drama over a form of entertainment?"

just wondering

[Sirian]

People create drama in whatever they do. Small, sleepy towns with nothing to them get dramatic over who sleeps with who, who worked more hours than who, who got a new broom/shovel/yard decoration/lawnmower.

People need stuff to blab about and to get emotional over. A game's as good any other excuse.


- Sirian

[Cuda68-2]

All hackers should be identified. So go here and buy a shirt or hat so we don't make any more mistakes.

http://www.cashncarrion.co.uk/?listPos= ... egoryID=15

[Darktalyn1]

Now I do realize that I caught a lot of flak back in the day for joining D3k under the alias Sitherack (which is a bit of a long story; but I did it so that Wakeman, Bah, Krom, and I could f**k up WP, for kicks... Which is ironic because later on Wake and I joined WP, but whatever..)

Point is, I was in D3k for awhile and can attest to the fact that none of them cheated. There was never any mention of hacks in PM's, emails, or their private forums. Not that I had any suspicions beforehand, but just that I can verify that if hacking is the reason their team was boycotted, the D3TL made a huge mistake.

Of course I realize anyone who reads this can take it with a grain of salt if they want because WP (and myself) were accused of hacking as well... But they really weren't hackers. They were just good players.

[Testiculese]

i know i'm funna get slammed for this...

but do you ever step back and say to yourself:
"all this drama over a game... why is there all this drama over a form of entertainment?"

just wondering

hmm..sounds like TV...

[[TA]One]

I know it has taken me a while to respond, but I wanted to hear what the TA member whose name was posted by Kurupt had to say. The player in question has not responded to my e-mail, so unfortunately I will have to make an assessment based only upon the PM and â??evidenceâ?

[Skyalmian]

Skyalmian also referred me to the D3k public bulletin board. I donâ??t know if there is additional evidence there,

Nope. What's there is a publicly posted copy of the private message I sent you:

krom was nice enough not to say it, but it was [TA]Venom. he would do it to me all the time. i'd come in alaised and put a spanking on him and he'd leave and come right back with wall hacks. it got to a point where i would seek him out just to see if he would do it, and sure enough he did.

To this day, no one in TA that I know, knows how to use the rapid fire hack, the wall hack or any other type of hack.

I have the feeling I'm going to have a long wait, or I'll be reading excuses why you don't have the proof. If you do have the proof, then we'll see to it that those players are removed from TA.

Heh, and I was just about to log off and leave all of this publicly posted instead.

You want proof, you can have it: Here.
Dated April 14, 2004, level Abandoned, server "RC's #06 FT20", starting near 12:30 AM EST and ending after four games at 2:32 AM EST. I remember it quite vividly. So would Starkiller, I assume, who will be reading the thread (and this PM) shortly, as I have sent him them.

Game 1, short lived due to a timer. Venom left near the end.

My alias was Yks.

Game: RC's #06 FT20Level: 1
[Rank] [Name] [Score] [Kills] [Deaths] [Suicides] [Time In Game]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Yks 5[5] 5[5] 2[2] 0[0] 3:39 minutes
2) Starkiller 1[1] 1[1] 3[3] 0[0] 5:38 minutes
3) *[TA]Venom_CTF 4[4] 4[4] 5[5] 0[0] 4:25 minutes

Game 2, the game Venom rejoined as "[666]Satan". (Screenshot 1 of the .zip was taken near the start of it.)
It's kinda hard to kill a guy that hides behind walls all the time.

Game: RC's #06 FT20Level: 1
[Rank] [Name] [Score] [Kills] [Deaths] [Suicides] [Time In Game]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Starkiller 14[15] 15[16] 13[16] 1[1] 45:24 minutes
2) [666]Satan 14[14] 14[14] 3[3] 0[0] 39:40 minutes
3) Raised In Harlem 6[6] 8[8] 9[9] 2[2] 13:40 minutes
4) Yks -2[3] 6[11] 10[12] 8[8] 43:26 minutes
5) *Raised In Harlem 2[2] 2[2] 2[2] 0[0] 6:38 minutes
6) *[TA]Venom_CTF 0[4] 0[4] 0[5] 0[0] 4:28 minutes
7) *Vertigo 0[0] 0[0] 8[8] 0[0] 7:51 minutes

Game 3. Venom left his hacked pilot and returned normal after Starkiller agreed to fight him alone. I was confined to Observer mode but helped Starkiller out by constantly telling him Venom's position with Teamspeak.

Game: RC's #06 FT20Level: 1
[Rank] [Name] [Score] [Kills] [Deaths] [Suicides] [Time In Game]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Starkiller 10[25] 12[28] 17[33] 2[3] 1:25:08 hours
2) Yks 9[12] 9[20] 11[23] 0[8] 1:23:21 hours
3) Raised In Harlem 9[15] 11[19] 19[28] 2[4] 52:56 minutes
4) Venom 5[5] 5[5] 4[4] 0[0] 12:01 minutes
5) *[666]Satan 17[31] 17[31] 3[6] 0[0] 1:06:35 hours
6) *[TA]Venom_CTF 0[4] 0[4] 0[5] 0[0] 4:28 minutes
7) *Vertigo 0[0] 0[0] 0[8] 0[0] 7:50 minutes
8) *Raised In Harlem 0[2] 0[2] 0[2] 0[0] 6:37 minutes

Game 4. I came out of Observer mode after the Game 3 battle.

Game: RC's #06 FT20Level: 1
[Rank] [Name] [Score] [Kills] [Deaths] [Suicides] [Time In Game]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Yks 20[32] 21[41] 12[35] 1[9] 1:40:34 hours
2) Raised In Harlem 17[32] 19[38] 18[46] 2[6] 1:10:05 hours
3) Venom 15[20] 15[20] 18[22] 0[0] 29:15 minutes
4) Starkiller 7[32] 7[35] 14[47] 0[3] 1:42:12 hours
5) *[TA]Venom_CTF 0[4] 0[4] 0[5] 0[0] 4:28 minutes
6) *[666]Satan 0[31] 0[31] 0[6] 0[0] 1:06:36 hours
7) *Vertigo 0[0] 0[0] 0[8] 0[0] 7:50 minutes
8) *Raised In Harlem 0[2] 0[2] 0[2] 0[0] 6:37 minutes

An April 7th game. Same thing; fought Venom when he was playing normal first, then had to fight his alter ego during the second half.

My alias was billy.

17) *[TA]Venom_CTF
==================
Total Time In Game: 16:42 minutes
Callsign: Kills: Deaths:
billy 4 13
Starkiller 6 7
Kansas 3 7

18) *Black_Plague
=================
Total Time In Game: 25:25 minutes
Callsign: Kills: Deaths:
Starkiller 18 15
billy 10 9
Cutthroat 3 5
The_Shinespark 7 8
Kansas 3 9

By the time the April 14th games occurred, Starkiller and I knew about his aliases. Starkiller joined the April 14th Abandoned server first, then Venom popped in second, and I joined third. Instead of leaving, like we should have, we stayed.

In prior games, when we didn't know Venom's aliases, we had gone in when he was already in there, fought him for a little bit, and then watched him leave and then saw either "Black_Plague" or "[666]Satan" (his two hacker aliases) pop in (one of the first such games we encountered his hacked pilot "Black_Plague" was in a 3 player Faded Rose. We thought nothing of it when Venom left and the tank with rapid fire weapons came in shortly after). The scenario was always the same, which is why it became so easy to spot: Venom would be in the game as "[TA]Venom" (or some variant of that name) in a Phoenix, and would return in a Magnum -- almost always within 60 seconds of after having left -- that had rapid fire weapons and could fly through most walls. Calling him by his true name always got him to respond.

First I have to ask, did these "members of TA" using these hacks actually "come back" using their TA names?

He is not that stupid.

I know him to have a temper.

I know. Very temperamental, both under alias and not.

I also find it strange that you two have never mentioned this to any member of our team, to my knowledge.

Good point. I never mentioned it because I wanted to play nice -- because the consequences would mean him getting the boot.

But the funny thing is, the screenshots also show the chat the hacker is having with the two D3k members. (I will not name the two D3k members since their names were given to me in a PM.) And in that chat the hacker states that the ONLY REASON he is hacking is because the two D3k members are DOUBLE-TEAMING him. The screenshots provided by â??D3kâ?

[Gooberman]

[quote]The screenshots provided by â??D3kâ?

[Clayman]

Those afraid of being doubled-teamed simply fear displaying their lack of skill. Try being triple or quadruple-teamed, as I and probably others have been. I actually find it quite fun. If you don't, try not taking the game quite so seriously.