is speeding a sin?

[kurupt]

i have a coworker who is pretty hardcore into the bible thumping. he takes every opportunity he can get to lecture everyone about jesus and the bible and other things most of us don't care to hear about. with christmas coming up, he's been really really preachy. most of the time it doesn't bother any of us non-religious folk but at this time of year we all want to take vacation days to get away from him.

one day while picking up lunch last week, he offered me a ride. i accepted and he of course began with the routine. then i noticed something. the guy drives really really fast. 35mph speed limit and he was going 50+. here in ohio, you generally get 5mph leeway on regular roads like this one we were on and 10 on the highway. so he was well above that. i asked him, do you realize that your driving that fast? he said yes and asked me what speed i normally drive at. i generally do go faster than the speed limit and told him so. so he says, whats the problem? i say no problem, its just that i thought god would frown upon speeding. he said, and these are his exact words, "thats poppycock." i may be wrong here, but does the bible not say to obey your superiors (in so many words) ? therefore shouldn't speeding while being aware of speeding be considered a sin? he doesn't think so, but i do.

do the religious folk here speed? if you do, do you have the same opinion of it he does or do you speed knowing and accepting that you are sinning (everyone does something wrong, nobody's perfect) by speeding? if you don't speed, is it because of the fear of being ticketed or the fear of committing a sin? there are plenty of good reasons not to speed, i just want to know are yours religion based or not.

i'm just wondering how someone can live such a "pure" life and never do anything the bible doesn't specifically ok, yet they don't think twice about something like driving faster than the speed limit.

[Gooberman]

"Give to ceasar what is ceasar's, and to God what is God's" (Matthew 22:21)

This was in reference to paying taxes to support a government that supported another God. So I guess, this is the closest thing that I can think of that speeding would fall under.

[Shoku]

He's wrong.

The Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome to "obey the superior authorities." The superior authorities are the governments that rule over us. We are to obey them out of respect for their position, which God has granted them to have. Paul says they are "God's minister" executing wrath against the wicked, and they allow us all to live with some security in this wicked world (although to what extent depends on where you live of course).
Disobeying any established law can be considered rebelling against the established authority, which a true Christian would avoid. Peter said, "We must obey God as ruler rather than men," but only in the areas of our religious practice; he said that because the disciples had been ordered by the government to stop preaching. If the secular law does not interfere with a God given command, Christians should obey it. Breaking the speed limit not only shows disrespect to the superior authority, it also shows lack of respect for other drivers on the road who must deal with reckless speeders.

Most of the people I know who are excessively preachy tend to be a bit self-righteous, which is something God frowns upon.

[roid]

:edit:
shoko beat me to it.

personally, in matters like this i'd rather debate why speeding is a valid "CRIME", not whether it's a "sin" or not.

[Gooberman]

Because I don't want some idiot passing me at 130 mph in a school zone. Personally, I would rather the law be more vague to say "Reckless driving." But I suppose that would cause too many arguments with cops.

[Grendel]

I hope there is a place in Hell for all the people driving below the speed limit..

[THE GAME]

I hope there is a place in Hell for all the people driving below the speed limit..

LOL

[Will Robinson]

...Disobeying any established law can be considered rebelling against the established authority, which a true Christian would avoid....

And any stupid thought passed into law can be 'considered' as one of an 'established authority' that only a coward would obey and rationalize his submission as the will of god according to some other mans interpretation of gods will.

[woodchip]

...Disobeying any established law can be considered rebelling against the established authority, which a true Christian would avoid....

And any stupid thought passed into law can be 'considered' as one of an 'established authority' that only a coward would obey and rationalize his submission as the will of god according to some other mans interpretation of gods will.

Me rings the Jim Jones and David Koresh bell.

[Stryker]

Ghandi, anyone?

Seriously, if you're going to protest a law, at least do it in a fashion that won't risk the lives of the people around you.

This guy is definitely in the wrong. The Bible specifically says that while the authorities are acting the way they're supposed to, they hold moral authority over you. Unless something they tell you to do specifically violates God's laws, they are to be obeyed.

[Will Robinson]

...The Bible specifically says that while the authorities are acting the way they're supposed to, they hold moral authority over you....

Well at least that's a slightly better reason than:

" We are to obey them out of respect for their position, which God has granted them to have. Paul says they are "God's minister" executing wrath against the wicked, and they allow us all to live with some security in this wicked world..."

Which to me sounds like trading freedom for security. The apostle Paul sounds a bit weak and compromised in Shoku's post above.

For me, obeying the speeding laws make sense and although I often wish I could drive a little bit faster in some places my own personal preference isn't more important than the safety of having uniform laws that are resonable and create a safer enviroment. I would never consider obeying a law merely because god has apparantly allowed the lawmaker to exist, or the law in question doesn't directly conflict with a commandmant, therefore it must be gods will!

Many tyrants "execute wrath against the wicked" and thereby allow their subjects to "live with some security" while at the same time delivering a whole lot of their own brand of "evil wrath" upon their own subjects.

[Shoku]

...The Bible specifically says that while the authorities are acting the way they're supposed to, they hold moral authority over you....

Well at least that's a slightly better reason than:

" We are to obey them out of respect for their position, which God has granted them to have. Paul says they are "God's minister" executing wrath against the wicked, and they allow us all to live with some security in this wicked world..."

Which to me sounds like trading freedom for security. The apostle Paul sounds a bit weak and compromised in Shoku's post above.

Stryker's reasoning is the same as mine, just worded differently. Freedom is relative, always has been and always will be. Paul does not compromise, he is addressing how Christians should behave under present circumstances.

Here's the complete section of Romans: "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgement to themselves. For those ruling are an object of fear, not for the good deed, but for the bad, Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; for it is God's minister to you for your good. But if you are doing bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God's minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.

"There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. For that is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God's public servents constantly serving this very purpose. Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax; to him who calls for tribute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.

"Do not you people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. For the law code, 'You must not commit adultery; You must not murder; You must not steal; You must not covet,' and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does not work evil to one's neighbor; therefore love is the law's fulfillment." -Romans 13:1-10

Obeying the law is fundamental to Christian principles. Again, unless secular law infringes or counters God's commands to Christians, then Christians should obey that law. Jesus command his disciples to be "no part of the world," which means they are not to rise up in rebellion against any government or get involved in the political affairs of the ruling authority. Christians are to be non-political, because their allegiance is to God's Kingdom, while they demonstrate relative subjection to the existing governmental authorities.

[Dedman]

Here in Atlanta, it's a sport.

[Will Robinson]

Here in Atlanta, it's a sport.

No kidding. That highway that circles the city at rush hour on a motorcycle is an instant adrenalin overdose.

[Ford Prefect]

Is it about obeying the law or about acting in a responsible manner? The majority of the posts here seem to appoach speeding like the only problem is that you are breaking a law.
How about endangering your fellow road users?
Speed limits exist to allow all persons to use the road safely. Your elderly relatives use the road too and perhaps their reaction time is not what it used to be but they still have the right to use the roads and would be much safer if other drivers obeyed the speed limits.
It seems a bit selfish to say the least to speed along without regard to the safety of your fellow citizens and selfish behaviour is not "christian" is it?

[Shoku]

Is it about obeying the law or about acting in a responsible manner?. . . It seems a bit selfish to say the least to speed along without regard to the safety of your fellow citizens and selfish behaviour is not "christian" is it?

You are absolutely right - it is selfish to speed, and I did make mention of this lack of respect:

. . . it also shows lack of respect for other drivers on the road who must deal with reckless speeders.

[Top Gun]

I would go along more with Ford's line of thinking. For me, speeding (or any form of reckless driving by that manner, such as DUI) might be classified as a sin because by doing so, you are putting the lives of other people, not to mention your own life, at major risk. Definitely a no-no. As for myself, I choose not to speed not only because I don't want a ticket, but also because I am concerned with my safety and the safety of those around me. I think that falls under leading a Christian life, so I'd definitely say your friend's in the wrong.

[Jeff250]

Here, as I'm sure most everywhere else, it's the norm to go 5-10MPH over the speed limit, even right by cops, especially since Albuquerque is not very population-dense. Those who drive the speed limit stick out like a sore thumb by causing ordinarily unnecessary lane changes, traffic backups, etc., not to mention stress, anxiety, and road rage. I guess you could try to be a zealot by driving the limit and, after mucking up traffic progression and ruining everyone's day, blame it on society themselves for simply not driving slowly enough like yourself, but I'd rather just lose that sort of self-righteous attitude, go with the flow, and, hey, even get to places faster!

[Top Gun]

Of course, just about everyone does 5-10 over the limit, if for no other reason than to avoid creating a half-mile backup behind you. I think what we're all talking about are the people who do 25+ over the limit.

[Jeff250]

Just flamboyantly making sure.

[Will Robinson]

Of course, just about everyone does 5-10 over the limit, if for no other reason than to avoid creating a half-mile backup behind you. I think what we're all talking about are the people who do 25+ over the limit.

But will I burn in hell if I only do 5-10 over?

[Pugwash]

I hope there is a place in Hell for all the people driving below the speed limit..

LOL

X2

[Pugwash]

If it is Gods will that the authority figures are where they are, surely it is Gods will that the rebelious rebel.

[Top Gun]

Of course, just about everyone does 5-10 over the limit, if for no other reason than to avoid creating a half-mile backup behind you. I think what we're all talking about are the people who do 25+ over the limit.

But will I burn in hell if I only do 5-10 over?

Let's put it this way: I hope not, because if so, 99% of the driving population would be joining you.

[Nightshade]

Speeding is for gaytards. Seriously. Public transportation is not a sport, it's a necessary part of life that doesn't need to be any more dangerous than it is. Want to go fast? Take it to a speedway. At least there you'll splatter your own brains on the pavement and let Darwin's theory do the rest.

[Tyranny]

Actually I'm of the mind that the speeders are the ones causing the problems, not the people driving the speed limit. Those limits are posted for a reason and if everyone obeyed them traffic would go a lot smoother and you'd get to where you're going quickly and efficiently.

Sadly though people can't seem to do that. They either drive under the posted speed limit in one area and then are 5-10mph faster in another. Hence why driving sucks so bad. I usually don't drive more then 5mph over in most cases.

Do I think speeding is a sin though? Not really. Speeding doesn't have anymore effect on your spiritual well being then eating a bowl of cereal in the morning. The only difference is that when you speed you just accelerate (pun intended) a potential mishap. In the long run our final destination is all the same.

[Tricord]

It's a question of personal principle.
I have no problems with people speeding, but they mustn't whine if they get pulled over and/or ticketed. They must face the consequences if their speeding causes loss.

I think people are lacking a lot of personality and integrity if they have to refer to religion to answer this trivial question. Religion shouldn't make people abide traffic laws, the traffic laws should.

[Tyranny]

I agree with that.

[kurupt]

thats not what i asked though. what i asked is that does religion apply to all laws, even ones percieved to be as silly as speeding is by average joe? i think it should.

[Jeff250]

Or, more pertinent, is breaking the DBB rules a sin?

Dante's reserved a special level of the inferno for those who don't post 56k warnings.

[Drakona]

Curious question. It's surprising that your Bible-thumping friend wouldn't be uptight about speeding--many Christians are, for exactly the reason Shoku gave. If you quote that passage to him, it might surprise him--especially the "Every person is to be subject to the governing authorities" part. The reference is Romans 13:1-5ish. (Though I don't think the passage prohibits speeding, I doubt your friend's reasoning is the same as mine--such a passage, even poorly interpreted, might expose his own hypocracy--and at the very least, his answer might tell you something about his character.)

Speeding seems to be a favorite subject of preachers. It is a point of doctrine in Christianity that everyone sins, and pastors seem to always ask, "Do you speed?" in order to make the point. Of course, most people listening do speed, and half of them don't think it's wrong. That's why it makes such a good example. The pastor is trying to show them that they are sinful.

It frustrates me to no end when that sermon is given, for a lot of reasons. I think it's a very bad example. When people try to make the point that everyone sins, they usually list some small sin--"Have you ever told a tiny lie?" or "Have you ever been the teensiest bit jealous of someone else?" Speeding is a good example here, because it's a small sin, something that virtually everyone has done. I hate this approach, though, because I think it is misleading on so many levels. It makes righteousness out to be an exercise in legalistic hair-splitting--as though everyone is basically decent, but nobody is perfect. Sure, nobody in the audience has killed anyone lately, but that doesn't matter: nobody has perfectly followed rule #68 this week either, and that makes God angry. It makes God out to be someone who watches tirelessly with an incalculably long list of rules, checking off anyone who violates one.

God isn't like that, righteousness isn't like that, humanity isn't like that, sin isn't like that. Sin goes so much deeper than external rules and mistakes; it's about who you are. Being righteous is not a matter of keeping all the tiny rules--it is a matter of your character. That is not to say the tiny rules don't matter, but keeping them won't make you rightous, and being righteous will make keeping them easy. Humnity isn't basically decent--you don't have to use a "small" sin as an example if you want everyone in the room to come up guilty. Most people, if they knew God, would find they are guilty of grand offenses. Like a medieval tyrant before a 21st century audience, most people only think they're decent because they don't know how good goodness can be. And God is no legalistic rules-obsessed laywer. God is a hopeless romantic, a passionate friend, and a perfect father--full of forgiveness, yet with very high standards.

But back to speeding. I said it annoys me when pastors use speeding as an example of universal sin because I think it's a poor example. That's true. But there's an even bigger reason: I don't think speeding is a sin. Some speeding certainly is, but speeding itself, in general... I don't think it is.

It's a good example of the difference between legalistic righteousness and wisdom, so I'll explain in depth. Kurupt is right that religion ought to touch every aspect of life. "Either God is God of all or God ain't God at all." But that doesn't mean that in every area of life Christians ought to slavishly obey rules; precisely the opposite is true. They ought to pursue wisdom and righteousness.

The legalist says, "The Christian ought to respect authority, and authority says this street is 35 MPH. So we go 35 MPH, no more and no less. Case closed." That's no good, because there's a lot more to being a good citizen in driving than just obeying the speed limit. I've been driving in dark or in snow, when moving at the speed limit would have been suicidal. I've also been driving on the freeways at times when traffic was moving so fast that driving the speed limit would have been suicidal. To add to that, the cops seem to not care if you're 5ish over in the city, and more on the highways. It hardly makes sense to interpret a law more precisely than the government does--one wonders if the legalists get precision speedometers, so they can travel at a constant 35.00 MPH. Or if they drive at 34, just to make sure they don't offend the law. That's not righteousness, that's pedantery.

The apathetic looks at the whole situation and says, "Clearly the speed limits are just guidelines; I can go any speed I want." That's no good, because even if the speed limits are just guidelines, you have more moral demands on yourself. What about keeping people safe--how about the community center at the bottom of the long hill, where people sometimes come running out into the crosswalk from behind some tall rocks? If you zoom by there at 50, what does that say about you--do you value your time more than those people's lives? How about keeping the people in your car safe? How about respect for the law? You can't just go any speed you want!

Neither of these approaches is good. It's best to study the situation with wisdom and try to find the right thing to do. As a Christian, I ought to respect the government, out of respect for God and fear for the government; then again, in this case, the government clearly doesn't care if you speed a little--certainly not if you're way out in the middle of nowhere. I ought to respect others' safety, and sometimes that entails going slower or faster than the posted speed. I ought to consider what sort of example I'm setting for the teenagers in the car--even if I know in wisdom that speeding is all right somewhere, I might be setting one of them up to go the apathetic route. ("Well, Drakona's pretty wise and she speeds sometimes, so I guess speed limits aren't too important...") I ought to be considerate to other people on the road, but then I also ought to be considerate to the people who are waiting for me. And on the third hand, I ought to be effective when I'm considerate--that is, doing things to "be nice" that don't really help anyone are hardly of value. And then there's integrity--I shouldn't drive any differently with cops behind me than without.

Righteousness is balancing these considerations, and constantly driving in a way that takes all of them into account. Legalism is no path to righteousness, but that does not excuse apathy. It is best to be wise! Weigh all the considerations, and drive in such a way as to please both God and government, without being stupid. That takes experience, wisdom, and knowledge of God's character--which is why nobody can get it right easily. Righteousness is something you have to pursue.

Anyway, most people who've been driving a while have made such an analysis, and have some idea of what speed it's wise to go. And if a lot of people aren't exactly righteous about their driving, most mature folks are decent--especially about their speed. The fact that most people roll their eyes and groan when someone suggests they shouldn't speed says to me that the person suggesting it is being "Holier Than Thou" rather than pursuing righteousness. Speeding definitely is a matter of personal conscience and wisdom, and though there are some things you can say for everyone ("You ought to respect other drivers" ... "You ought to respect people's safety" ... "You ought to respect the law"), it's certainly stupid to say "Obeying posted speed limits == RIGHTEOUSNESS." That's unnecessarily pedantic and often not true. It's equally stupid to say, "The Bible doesn't say anything about speeding exactly, therefore I can do anything I want." There are certainly general rules that apply. That's just showcasing ignorance and insensitivity.

While it's true that even little things should be done in such a way as to please God, how exactly to do that is more about what you're doing and why than it is about following the 78 Magic Rules. When you're speeding, if what you're displaying is disrespect, a lack of integrity, a lack of respect for other's safety, hypocracy about legalism, etc., it's definitely sinful. If you speed a bit, but you honestly think it's common sense and still honoring the law, then I'd say it isn't sinful. In everything, live in peace with the people around you and give glory to God. That's both harder and easier than it sounds. New covenant living rules that way.

---
(Good to see you guys. I can't visit for long, but I'm delighted to see some of the things you're talking about! )

[Tyranny]

Welcome back