On Dogfighting

WhollyCow · Post by **WhollyCow** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:32 pm

As noted in another thread, we all play D3 for different reasons. For me, there are three main reasons: the joy of an extended, one on one fight with another pilot; the thrill of stealing and recovering flags in close CTF matches; and the jokes and comraderie I share with my teammates. I want to ramble a bit about the first one, extended dogfights.

Yesterday I was afflicted wih a wish to play a good game in the Whoopass Cannery, or Mano a Mano level 2. Those of you who have played it will remember the level- it's just a big cylinder with fusion cannons and super lasers. The cool thing about the level is that the majority of dogfights in it are slow and drawn-out, involving a great deal of thought and mind-gaming by the fighting pilots.

So, yesterday, after much coaxing and pleading, I got someone to host the level and another pilot to agree to play it with me. We played for about ten minutes: the score was 3 to 2, his lead, when I got a message from him.

"This is boring."

I was taken aback. I had been having a great time. How could anyone find the Cannery to be boring? Still, I agreed to change servers, and we wound up in a 4-player game of Burning Indika. However, I left soon after the level filled up, because missile boating bores me.

Now, I am not for a moment condemning the pilot who was bored by the cannery. After all, I did the same thing in the game that followed- I decided the gameplay bored me, and left.

But I do have this concern: have months of playing Veins, Subway Dancer, and Skybox quelled all love of dogfighting from our midst? Is there no one left who enjoys the mind game, the lunge and parry of a simple fusion fight in a big empty room? Can we still have fun without mass drivers and frags?

Thus is my ramble. Your responses to it are welcome.

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:49 pm

I've seen this a lot - The problem with dogfighting, is that some people don't get the same thrill that you or I might get. This is not really anything personal, it's just a insecurity on their part. In the past, I've often felt like bailing out from a dogfight 1on1 because it was really wearing down my control and concentration. I stuck with it though, and it usually worked out - Albeit needing a shower after a few rounds. Some people don't stick with it, and just bail out saying it's boring. I think with missile boating environments, it's easy to participate because you don't need to focus on anyone or have to worry about anyone focusing on you. It's all about who has the larger gun or missile stack. With close, intensive dogfights, it really gets personal on some mental level.

But some people haven't got the chops to be a true Descent dogfighter - And that doesn't have anything to do with how good you are at it. So they cannot handle it anymore, and quit - Under the false pretense that they are bored, but are actually mentally exhausted.

There are many variables ofcourse. One of them is moods - Sometimes if your in a bad, depressed mood, a prolonged set of dogfights ends up adding to your frustrations as opposed to "chilling out" or having fun. Sometimes it's easier to play when it's just mayhem.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:18 pm

Try catching a packet for a change; do you really think you can honestly dodge Fusion for that long with the size of your collision sphere?

I find that pilots that skip around lot and think they are dogfighting only add endless tedium to games.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like VV or the way that most pilots play in it either, that level would be far more interesting to me if MD was banned. Of course if that were the case the phoenixes would continue to fly in huge loops in the large rooms but there would be no MD to pick them off, more tedium and pointlessness. But, there is no fun in trying to attack a base and getting targeted by 3 to 5 phoenixes all armed with MD at the same time, even if you had 200 shields in a Magnum you are only talking 2-3 seconds before your next respawn. Getting off two Fusion shots even pointed where you want is an accomplishment in not getting bounced. The occasional VV game is fun and I do enjoy games in that level, but in general I dislike any level that is completely dominated by MD.

I also have never truly liked Indika 3, especially the way it is often run: with 14 players. I miss the days of 4-5 player Indika 3 servers, 3v3 skybox servers, etc. Dogfights were intense, but rarely lasting over 20 seconds, a fast but not chaotic pace. The move to massive games in crammed levels has never suited me well, its fun on occasion but not always. There was a time when a Pyro GL could dominate skybox or Indika3, because the respawn rate was slow and the number of players was limited.

I miss BPs in Indika 3 spraying microwave all over the place, you hardly ever see it anymore because either BPs or Microwave is banned. Many complained about them, I did not; I liked it, hell I even used it sometimes, why can't I play against them anymore? BPs were like candy to me Large collision sphere, weak shields, slow and often unskilled pilots depending on a crutch weapon that rarely worked against me.

I miss small games with 45+ second respawn times; just chucking missiles was a bad idea because you would run out!

You are at one end of the extreme WC, I find your style tedious and irritating, but the other end of the extreme; crammed chaotic levels is equally stupid in my opinion. I don't care if you get your way or not, I do not enjoy that style of play, but I would enjoy having some more middle ground.

STRESSTEST · Post by **STRESSTEST** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:37 pm

So what you are saying Cow, is that [SQN]Candyasss chickened out of a cannery game even though he was winning?

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:27 pm

Dogfights are awesome.

Unfortunately my 'style' seems to stop me participating in them much, especially when I know I'm outclassed.

Although this is more D2 than D3. But dogfights in Descent 3 still do have a nice touch to them.

Pun · Post by **Pun** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:32 pm

It's awesome to get some good doggin in. Unfortunately, not many of the good doggin levels are played much these days. On the other hand, a well placed frag, a mortar to the windshield or a direct hit with a nape rocket from a mile away can make ya feel all warm and fuzzy too.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:59 pm

I don't like 1 vs 1. I prefer 2 vs 2 or more. Or even a 6+ player anarchy. I just hate having to concentrate on 1 player only.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:33 pm

Until recently, I hadn't had any real experience with dogfighting; in fact, the closest I came was playing in a Duel server for a short time. I didn't really think I'd enjoy it too much. In fact, I'm probably the biggest fan of tunnel-ratting Fusion fests that there is.

However, a few D2 Revivals ago, Phaser and I ended up in a game by ourselves. I have to say that it was one of the most intense Descent experiences I've ever had. The level was medium-sized, and I was on the edge of my seat, straining my senses to figure out where Phaser was. When we did meet up with each other, there was little missle boating and lots of primary action. I have to say that it was a blast, and downright spooky at times. I'd like to try it some more. My only request would be to use a more medium-sized level; when I tried the Duel mod, the arenas were too small for my liking, since you could see your opponent right off the respawn.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:11 am

Yeah, that's the way it generally goes. You only have one opponent to deal with, but that does free up your mind to try to gain a bigger advantage.

World War Woodi · Post by **World War Woodi** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:01 am

You know what, I love it! All of it ! Dog fighting, even though Im outclassed most of the time, guess what? I dont care. I dont mind being the underdog to all you awesome pilots, all the better I feel if I get ya

VV and halcyon are a freaking blast, as a matter of fact I havent found a level I dont like. I like camping, missile bloating and dogfighting, in fact it changes by the second. To bad people dont play Hyperspace more, thats a great level. Real fun with two people especially with all the mods and gunboys, you can make it really challenging.
Anarchy rocks, damage,skybox,halfpipe,abend, you know em they are all fun. Yes even subway dancer. I think the skill there is to avoid thier attacks and instant kill weapons till ya get yours in there ! All fun !

{Hawk}Liquid · Post by **{Hawk}Liquid** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:25 am

Wholly I cant agree with you more. I for one cant stand secondaries, and vauss for that matter. There is nothing as fun as flying around for 5 minuets trying to get a kill in a dog fight with a fusion.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:12 pm

I remember in d1, I could dog for a minute, maybe more.. chiseling away at the other guy's shields until I get the hard earned kill. with d3 it's done in the first ten seconds. usually ended by a frag, nape, or mortar.

Clayman · Post by **Clayman** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:21 pm

I've always enjoyed dogfights. While I've always played a wide variety of levels, I was a heavy player of VV for a long time myself, but it hasn't diminished my interest in dogfights. What I find is that in most levels is that pilots avoid getting into dogfights so they can just lob stuff and run. I personally think the real problem is disinterest in 1v1's. I won't name any names, but there are a fair number of pilots who, for whatever reason, simply won't accept them. 1v1's, at least to me, are the best way to get into some good dogfights. That or 3-6 players in a level without many seconaries or with a high respawn rate.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:31 pm

man, i'm a huge advocate of dragout dogfights. but in d3 they're rare. if i still had d3, desire to play it, and a joystick, i'd play some cannery with you.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:17 pm

I remember some good dogfights in Minerva 5, Minerva 2/3, but with that cheaply added, really huge dogfight room.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:49 am

Oh yes. That level was a disgrace... why didn't they just can the Minerva part and just keep it one big room?

But never mind. Design choices are design choices.

And it did make for some interesting fights, even if you practically needed a n00b moment to get hit.

Darktalyn1 · Post by **Darktalyn1** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:59 pm

I remember enjoying dogfights, but not in spaces as open as that in Whoopass Cannery.

I like large areas but not that large - something more like the open space in Faded Rose seems an ideal size to me. There always seemed to be a feeling of working the space in the room more.

Of course, this is coming from a very washed up dogfighter at this point. I almost never play anyway these days

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:59 pm

Darkhasbyn1??

Scratch · Post by **Scratch** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:28 am

I h8 you bunbun

El Ka Bong · Post by **El Ka Bong** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:42 pm

Those skybox servers set up to allow 3 players always makes me wonder... A good dog fight starts, carries on abit, then the third pilot just lobs a mortar into the fray and kills both other pilots.

A 'voyeur' kill...

TheCops · Post by **TheCops** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:02 pm

El Ka Bong wrote:A 'voyeur' kill...

hehe.
i always called it cherry pickin'. it's about the only thing i ever mastered.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:33 pm

rare to find anyone who dogfights anymore.... and when you begin to start a dogfight.. noobs bust in, a vet will kill the cherry picker and return to the dogfight. a lamer will attack the vet when he goes for the noob

Couver_ · Post by **Couver_** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:21 pm

BUBBALOU wrote:rare to find anyone who dogfights anymore.... and when you begin to start a dogfight.. noobs bust in, a vet will kill the cherry picker and return to the dogfight. a lamer will attack the vet when he goes for the noob

Very true!! I have been killed many a time going for that "watcher"

Course when I "cherry pick" I go for the biggest threat first allowing me to dispatch the other at my leisure...

(Thats theory mind you I suck so I end up getting killed anyway

)

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:21 pm

BUBBALOU wrote:rare to find anyone who dogfights anymore.... and when you begin to start a dogfight.. noobs bust in, a vet will kill the cherry picker and return to the dogfight. a lamer will attack the vet when he goes for the noob

Noobs can be turned to ones own advantage in a fight, work it so the other guy ends up bumping into the noob.

Darktalyn1 · Post by **Darktalyn1** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:11 pm

Darkhasbyn

lol, yeah that sounds about right!

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:29 am

DT, what was that level you and sfuzzi did a demo of an age back? I love that little level, me and a mate played played it for weeks on end.

Good grief i miss playing this bloody game. 1v1 is the best for me, i want me knickers gripped.

Darktalyn1 · Post by **Darktalyn1** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:09 am

That was this cool little level called Nocturnal, I only ever played it about 10 times. Really great 1v1 level though.

I agree, 1v1 was so awesome. I also loved 2v2... Those were the main 2 game types I enjoyed.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:37 am

We should have a has-been convention sometime. I think that would be amusing.

Darktalyn1 · Post by **Darktalyn1** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:19 pm

Cool idea. I could change my moniker from KING MOTH to KING HASBEEN

BAAL · Post by **BAAL** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:40 pm

I agree DT. 1on1 was probably my favorite. We shared quite a few good one on ones together...

melvin · Post by **melvin** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:32 pm

nocturnal is the ★■◆●

dogfighting in the cannery is poo!

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:46 pm

i thought i was the only one who liked d3 nocturnal. it doesn't hold a candle to its ancestors, but its a great dogfighting level.

KlubMarcus · Post by **KlubMarcus** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:16 am

WhollyCow wrote: Thus is my ramble. Your responses to it are welcome.

I enjoy dogfighting, especially on games where players grab the Plasma Cannon before joining the fray.

My advice is to keep the trigger down and pray the other pilot(s) runs out of ammo before you do.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:59 am

I always pray the other pilots run out of shields before I do.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:52 pm

There's a D3 nocturnal? Wow, cool!

IMO, mass driver ruined D3 dogfighting. New pilots simply didn't learn how to have a knock-down drag-out lasers vs plasma fight, because they always had MD in mid-to-large size rooms. Especially in the hands of low-ping players, MD is overpowering in dogfights.

I like good, fast dogfights with energy weapons and few secondaries. You can see it in the design of the level "Zora" (which Duper converted to D3 from my D1 version.) The level is almost entirely small dogfights and corner-ratting (no real tunnels to speak of), and there are very few missiles available.

I haven't seen D3 cannery, but I have fond memories of getting whooped in D1 cannery (down 11-2 vs. my then-girlfriend) and D1 Fusion Farm (got pounded in Chicago '99.) I'd be up for any sort of D3 dogfighting (including cannery), though I warn you, I'm not that good at D3...

Inari · Post by **Inari** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:37 pm

I personally love dogfighting, except for when it's a vauss or MD dogfight. It's very exciting, and it lasts a while. I will mostly dogfight on 1v1s for one single reason. Nothing quite annoys me more than dogfighting with someone for so long, then someone else comes in, a "cherry-picker" as was already mentioned, and hits the other guy with a homer or a mortar, thus killing him. I know it's part of the game, but I find it frustrating.

I remember when I first came the the game a while back. I was one of those people that sat in the lower area on Burning Indika 3 and would chuck a mortar into the large room. Then someone would have to go in the back and fish me out or kill me.

I've never played Whoopass Cannery, but I do know that I don't like dogfighting rooms that are too large. A room about the size of the big one on Skybox is good enough for me.

Praetorian · Post by **Praetorian** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:54 pm

Cow! You know you can't DogFight - you skip too much.

KlubMarcus · Post by **KlubMarcus** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:05 am

Sergeant Thorne wrote: I always pray the other pilots run out of shields before I do.

I wish proximity mines didn't eat up bandwidth because I miss dropping them in a dogfight.

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:10 pm

Deploy gunboys in the middle of dogfights!! Woohoo!

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:15 pm

1 on 1 dog fights got to be boring. One pilot finally dies, the winner has less than half shields. Loser respawns with full shields and kills original winner. At the end the score was always about equal. Boring. I like the rape as you go pace of VV.

On Dogfighting

On Dogfighting

Re: On Dogfighting