Sidewinder Competitors?

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:28 pm

Hey

Last nite I was in CompUSA and saw the new crop of twist joysticks

Ive been away from D for so long ... are any of these sticks any real competition for the Sidewinder 3D Pro?

Which ones are best? WHo is kicking ass with what joystick?

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:38 pm

I still use the 3dpro. nothing can touch it.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:59 pm

SW FF2 does

Seriousely -- the problem is that M$ pulled the plug on PC gaming hardware about a year ago so them things are hard to come by. The 3DP is my 2nd favorite stick, unfortunately on comps w/ a FSB > 133MHz the "not connected" problem raises its ugly head.. OTOH a guy from Tacoma is selling NIB 3DP's on eBay for ~$1 + $8 S&H.

Stay away from Logitech 2.4 & esp. E3DP -- they handle nicely but only for a week to a month before the x axis starts giving out or the hat switches solder points break..

Of the Saitek line the 3DUSBG seems the stick to go, the Evo breaks triggers rather quickly and the x52 hat switches (so far -- need more data for a define recom. tho. It's expensive too).

My $.02

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:16 pm

Ok I'm looking at this Saitek USB Cyborg Gold.

Looks nice. Anyone actually using it out there?

Most important: can it be used with D2? D2X?

3D Pros worked great .. unfortunately .. I am a bear on hats and plowed thru hat switches like they were going out of style ..

Also - there is almost a religeous fervor about 3D Pros .. with good reason, they kick major ass and noone - other than maybe Birds with the mouse - proved anything superior ...

but .. I still believe a 3D twist joystick can be made better, more robust

Is this Cyborg Gold up to it iyo?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:28 pm

Well, my experience is that the SW 3DP is the most sturdy built stick of all mentioned above. It's also the only one that uses optical pickups on all axis..

STRESSTEST · Post by **STRESSTEST** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:41 pm

I use the cyborg gold, and have been for years. Never tried d2x tho, sorry

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:30 pm

Any joystick talking to DirectInput should work w/ d2x. Mine did

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:35 am

If you find something more sturdy, let us know.

I'm pretty hard on the hat switches too, and the 3D Pro is a little more tricky to repair than the Precision Pro. I've gotten to the point where I'm considering a mouse configuration. Either that or get a more precise soldering tip and an electronics clamp to hold the board/base.

KompresZor · Post by **KompresZor** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:04 am

I have the Cyborg evo and haven't had any trouble with the trigger. But the hat switch isn't any better then the SW PP

I'm pretty hard on the hat switch too, the longest I've had one last is 6 months and that includes repairs

The evo is a fast JS, small imput = large movement, so for that quick 180 MD round to the nose it's great. The trouble I have is that it's stiff in the center and it makes percision aming a ★■◆●.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:33 am

I use the evo. It's the only stick that can stand up tp the type of pressure I put sticks through.

I've snapped 3 M$ precision pro sticks off at the base within 2 days of getting them

I've demolished hat switches on at least another 5 sticks within a week of getting them

The Evo has lasted me a little over a year, and still going strong, though the hat is getting a little flaky. I might have to do a bit of stick surgery and/or replacement soon.

Edit: Precision aiming doesn't bother me. I slide to do precision aiming anyway--you shouldn't turn much when doing fine aiming unless you're using a mouse.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:10 pm

I use a 3D Gold; in all the descent version. D2x as well.

Works fine.

Don't install the profile software, it gave me nothing but trouble. Stress? do you use the profiler?

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:46 pm

KompresZor wrote: The evo is a fast JS, small imput = large movement, so for that quick 180 MD round to the nose it's great. The trouble I have is that it's stiff in the center and it makes percision aming a *****.

Hmm so by stiff in the center you mean no "slop"

?

Or that it wants to snap back too hard, making it hard to aim?

How is the Cyborg Gold in the center? Does it aim well?

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:04 pm

How about this one:

Thrustmasters Top Gun Fox 2 Pro

http://www.joystickreview.com/thrustmas ... ystick.asp

Looks Phat. Got the highest reviews on this site. Apparently sturdy. Price is good

Comments? Anyone using?

EDIT: reading more reviews on this, they all say it is thourougly bad*ss - accurate - solid as a rock - best thing out there.

Ya think?

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:13 pm

BTW:

I am seriously starting to jones for hardcore D2 Gauss / Merc battles

I want to hook up a killer stick, get some practice in, and start hunting and pounding away on people again ... and being pounded on no doubt

Are there any people consistantly playing anywhere online anymore? Where are the oldskool killaz of yore??

(hijacking my own thread somewhat here, but I helped found the board so I can! LOL

)

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:51 pm

You have to take into consideration that the reviews were probably submitted by flight sim players who would faint dead away at the site of what we do with a stick.

KlubMarcus · Post by **KlubMarcus** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:55 pm

Sergeant Thorne wrote:You have to take into consideration that the reviews were probably submitted by flight sim players who would faint dead away at the site of what we do with a stick.

Whatever you end up buying, buy two. They must be USB, just in case you break one in the middle of a dogfight and have to swap.

Do_Checkor · Post by **Do_Checkor** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:29 am

I am still on my 3D pro too and I still have some left in the cellar. Works even with D2X on XP

I was looking at the latest Logitech Freedom ones. They are cool but stable? Hm. The TopGun Fox2 Pro is made for big hands. The counter pressure is too hard imho.

Unix · Post by **Unix** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:34 am

I love your join date here Sup

El Ka Bong · Post by **El Ka Bong** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:08 pm

I glanced in the Garage and I only have 4 old JS's hanging around on the shelf.. I've given away a few old ones.

IMO: Logitech Js have large handles for bigger hands/grips. The Freedom JS is a hassle; it does not have a good grip (too big for me), and it lags, and needs batteries ! I broke switches in three months, so I replaced the first Logitech freedom 2.4 I bought, and now I have a new 'spare' JS... with a big grip... A LAN Party spare...

For my hand, the MS Sidewinder Precision 2 grip is the best, but usually fails on a button in 6 months of use. I used to have two new spares, unopened always "on hand"; simply phone the MS replacement warehouse, report a failed JS, and have a new one arrive via FedEx in 5 days ... For Free ! Those were the days !

Cyborg 3D's were good too for my grip, but before they went "gold" buttons failed alot on me.. I must have used up three or four... ( all replaced on warranty)... I think MS SP-2 are better than the Cyborg 3D's, more durable.

Cyborg is still developing new toys though, and I have not tried the 'Gold' series.. I'd expect newer technology improves on the previous, so after getting over my MS SP2 "habit", Cyborg has gotten my money.

I'm now trying to get my right hand's neuro-muscular junctions adapted to the Cyborg Evo... Argh ! It even hurts to play ! I'm flying like a spazz, I'm suicide prone as I press the missle launcher instead of AB'ing, flying straight at everybody or panicing when I lose my grip on the throttle/accelerator 'paddle'... The Cyborg Evo requires that I hold my left hand in a whole new 'pose'. I still do everything off of my joy stick; left and right hands on the JS, placed on a board on my lap.. no KB for me... I have a 'thumb harness' fashioned out of strapping to keep the Cyborg Evo's throttle 'anealed' to my left thumb ! !

Ferno ! I still haven't tried the MS PP you left with me !

Maybe I ought to learn from the pro's and go JS-KB or try a Nostromo device... ?

Given how I play Descent, a warranty is essential on any JS brand I purchase !

KompresZor · Post by **KompresZor** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:43 pm

Sup wrote:
KompresZor wrote: The evo is a fast JS, small imput = large movement, so for that quick 180 MD round to the nose it's great. The trouble I have is that it's stiff in the center and it makes percision aming a *****.
Hmm so by stiff in the center you mean no "slop"

?

Or that it wants to snap back too hard, making it hard to aim?

How is the Cyborg Gold in the center? Does it aim well?

I would have to say both, no slop and stiff to center, it will loosen up some over time though. When you first start using an evo your arm will get sore

The best advice I could give is to go someplace like Circit City and try it.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:16 pm

Sup, just order a few 3Dpros from Ebay and you'll be set. I've gone through three since I first started playing but thats really not that bad considering how many years its been since my first one.

Personally I've never come across another joystick that even remotely interested me or felt sturdy enough to compete with the 3DPro. The only stick that I felt would be a suitable replacement was the PPro. Still didn't feel right though.

Kali is still the place to find people to play D1/D2. You'll probably have the best luck on the Rangers server.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:48 am

El Ka Bong, it's nice to know that someone else flies with the stick on their lap. (Don't even say it, o ye of dirty minds.

) I have that same stick, and I have to admit it's been a big adjustment after being used to the 3DPro. (I would have kept using that, but my current PC has no gameport.) My wrist still hurts when using it, and I find that the wrist-rest doesn't go up high enough to allow me to comfortably use the hat. I expect that I'll get used to it, though; I just have to play more than once a month.

It's a good all-around stick, despite any flaws it has; it looks great too, and works well for Freespace as well.

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:40 pm

Grendel wrote:Seriousely -- the problem is that M$ pulled the plug on PC gaming hardware about a year ago so them things are hard to come by. The 3DP is my 2nd favorite stick, unfortunately on comps w/ a FSB > 133MHz the "not connected" problem raises its ugly head.. OTOH a guy from Tacoma is selling NIB 3DP's on eBay for ~$1 + $8 S&H.

Could be some truth in that FSB > 133MHz but because that is only a problem in Windows I highly doubt that. More like a Microsoft doesn't care about it any more and wants you to buy a new one problem.

I still use the 3D Pro and still think it is the greatest! If this one ever broke then I would probably look for a PPro 2 if those are still available.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:58 pm

I fly stick in lap too. I have more control over it that way. Pervs, stay outta this.

It helps me put a lot more force on the stick--I can exert more than 100 pounds of force at a time, not to mention a hand grip that leaves people I shake hands with trying to repair their wrists afterwards.

Combined, I need durable sticks; and the Evo's the only one that's somewhat stood up to the pounding I put a stick through.

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:56 pm

How do you keep it steady in lap? For example, if I played with my 3d Pro in lap then it would rock a bit as I turned the ship as my legs are not as "firm" as the desk. Or do you just get used to it?

Unix · Post by **Unix** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:08 pm

I too put my 3dpro in my lap.

I guess cuz I've done the entire time I've played descent that it just feels right.

I suppose the main reason is that I like to have the joystick centered on my body when I play, and my lap is the easiest place.

It probably would improve my game a little if I built some sort of extension from my desk to sit directly over my lap and give my stick some more stability.

Fusion · Post by **Fusion** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:18 am

Ok Sup, you asked some questions on Joys, so here is my input.

Sticks for D1/2. I only have the Mac ver or those games, but I used my Gravis Firebird stick when I still had ADB ports.
When I upgraded to my G4 for playing D3, got the Saitek Cyborg 3d USB. (Same as the gold in design, but all black in color.) Got the 3D USB when D3 came out, so had it for Long time. Never had issues w/hat or trigger internally.Unforts, the 3D doesn't work w/Mac D1/2.

Earlier this year started using the Top Gun Fox2 Pro, and was killing hats after/every 2-3 months.(killed 2-3 of them.) When I was returning the last Top Gun, Dad asked if I should look into going w/another stick.
CompUSA only had a small selection of Sticks for Mac, but after some disscusion w/store employee, went w/ the Freedom 2.4 since it said on the box that it would work on a Mac. My other option was the EVO, but Saitek wasn't very informative on Mac compat. (It is compat BTW, in OS 9. Need another peice of software called USB overdrive for useing it and the 2.4 in OSX)
I did buy the EVO after using it on a loaner box ata Lan party. The Evo is my backup stick.

and Despite Gren's issues w/the 2.4...I am still on my first stick.

If you want to get the Belkin Nostromo speedpads, get ur hands on the n-52, that's what I did.

Fus

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:45 am

Xamindar wrote:How do you keep it steady in lap? For example, if I played with my 3d Pro in lap then it would rock a bit as I turned the ship as my legs are not as "firm" as the desk. Or do you just get used to it?

There is a tiny bit of wiggle, but is easily downgraded to a status of being so tiny as to not matter by exerting a bit of downward force on the stick. The weight of the stick's base doesn't really matter; it's the amount of downward pressure the stick can stand that counts.

bash · Post by **bash** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:39 pm

After my last 3DPro died I switched to PPros but didn't like them. I settled on the Cyborg Gold with a few mods (like sawing off the big-azz hat down to a nub and removing the button covers) and found them a good crossgrade from the 3DPro. Keep in mind this was just for D3 (which I stopped playing many moons ago) and I never used it in D1/D2.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:57 pm

Xamindar wrote:Could be some truth in that FSB > 133MHz but because that is only a problem in Windows I highly doubt that. More like a Microsoft doesn't care about it any more and wants you to buy a new one problem.

It is true, I'm using one on a 200MHz FSB comp and it's a pain in the neck to get it started (takes about 5-20min fiddling w/ the stick). The 3DP isn't officially supported in 2k & XP but the code is there. M$ just refuses to fix the timing issue

Oh, you need Windows to run the stick in "native" (aka digital) mode. If you switch it into emulation the "not connected" goes away but the stick becomes unusable for D3.

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:09 pm

Grendel wrote:
Xamindar wrote:Could be some truth in that FSB > 133MHz but because that is only a problem in Windows I highly doubt that. More like a Microsoft doesn't care about it any more and wants you to buy a new one problem.
It is true, I'm using one on a 200MHz FSB comp and it's a pain in the neck to get it started (takes about 5-20min fiddling w/ the stick). The 3DP isn't officially supported in 2k & XP but the code is there. M$ just refuses to fix the timing issue

Do you work for M$? That's cool you get to see the code, why not fix it for us?

My main point is that it is fixable, and probably very simple too, they would just rather I buy a new stick.

Grendel wrote:Oh, you need Windows to run the stick in "native" (aka digital) mode.

Wrong, Linux runs the stick flawlessly in "digital" mode. It's the main reason I still mostly play D3 in Linux despite all the annoying D3 compatability bugs.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:29 pm

I think you're misunderstanding because of the wording. I belive he meant that when using the stick in Windows, one must use "native" mode, not emulation mode. He was making no reference to other operating systems.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:22 am

Acouple of questions about the saitek cyborgs:

The head can be adjusted to tilt from one side to the other. I bought one of the original cyborgs and after awhile the tightening clamp wore out so the head loosely swivels from one side to the other. Is this still a problem on either the gold or evo models?

Some on line reviewers mentioned drift as being a problem. Your experience on this issue?

The gold is a usb wire hook-up while the evo is wireless. Any noticable difference in reaction times while playing between these type sticks?

Lastly on my original cyborg the trigger broke off after a couple months of play. Triggers still a problem?

El Ka Bong · Post by **El Ka Bong** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:12 pm

My Evo is also USB, and so even without batteries the buttons light up... I've never seen wireless Cyborg. Wireless will need batteries, so the gimmick of 2.4 gHz technology seems not so nifty in a JS.

El Ka Bong · Post by **El Ka Bong** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:14 pm

El Ka Bong wrote:My Evo is also USB, and so even without batteries the buttons light up... I've never seen wireless Cyborg. Wireless will need batteries, so the gimmick of 2.4 gHz technology seems not so nifty in a JS.

The Evo has a different screw-system to adjust the trigger's angles; it seems hardier than the old Cyborg 3d's...

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:16 pm

El Ka, I thought the Evo was wireless:
http://tinyurl.com/5ftvy

KompresZor · Post by **KompresZor** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:53 pm

I haven't had any trouble with the triger and I'm 6' tall and weigh in at around 230lbs

But that being said I also shoot a lot and have a light trigger finger.
I've had my evo for about 6 months and have not had any trouble, but the hat is starting to feel a little soft. So it most likely wont be long till I have to either RMA it or repair it myself.
Saitek Cyborg Evo Joystick USB on Newegg

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:04 pm

So I see the Evo comes either wireless or usb. So that answers that question.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:28 pm

I see it's necessary to disabuse some people's notions about the SW 3DPro AGAIN! Most pointedly: it is a piece of ★■◆●! It's a 9 years old stick and it quite simply, performs like one.

It is useless, it is not compatible with many systems, is extremely hard to get working on a windows 98 box with an FSB over 100MHz.

It is not accurate like modern sticks.

It is not programmable like modern sticks.

It is not as smooth, nor as quick as modern sticks.

For Goodness sake, if you are a 3D Pro fan, then do yourself an enormous favour and upgrade to a LOGITECH 3D Pro! Then you'll see what you've been missing.

Honestly: 9 Years old joysticks? You are living in a fool's paradise.

Disclaimer: The author owns at least 4 SW 3D Pros, 2 brand new and still in boxes. They'll never be used by me again - EVER.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:06 pm

Mobius wrote: It is useless, it is not compatible with many systems, is extremely hard to get working on a windows 98 box with an FSB over 100MHz.

Yet another reason to stop using Windows 98.