what is the "Look down angle" dedman? use a 747 as an example.
Now this is a complete guess but I'd have to say it's around 30 degrees?
Also Woody, I did a quick number check. for a 45 degree angle from ground to an airliner at 8500 feet up, you have to be at least 1.61 miles from it, if not farther. Coupled with the fact that it's probably moving at around 400 miles per hour, if not faster; you'd have to have EXTREMELY good timing and machine-like aim to even put the dot on the plane (barring any environmental interference), let alone the cockpit window. Therefore it is not humanly possible to even come close to it. The tolerances are way too tight for a person to pull it off.
Math and physics once again shoots down an urban legend.
Watch out for my laserbeam, suckah!
Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250
I've seen handhelds that could project a visible dot on cloud cover easily. I wouldn't put it beyond the range of a handheld to go as far as 3000, if you get a REALLY good one. Also, the green lasers seem to be able to project farther than red.
Edit: rephrase that, I did a little research and came up with a handheld green laser pointer that has a range supposedly approaching 10 miles.
Some of the more powerful ones on that site claim to be able to aim 25 miles.
http://www.amazing1.com/laser3.htm
Wouldn't any terrorist wanting to do damage use a mechanical system? My dad has a telescope with an automatic tracking system--if terrorists wanted to get something like that, it wouldn't be hard. You could probably get one for < $500.
Another site i found, http://www.familydefense.com/13-tip.htm, sells a laser pointer that could easily be concealed in your hand and has a range of 1500 feet.
Edit: rephrase that, I did a little research and came up with a handheld green laser pointer that has a range supposedly approaching 10 miles.
Some of the more powerful ones on that site claim to be able to aim 25 miles.
http://www.amazing1.com/laser3.htm
Wouldn't any terrorist wanting to do damage use a mechanical system? My dad has a telescope with an automatic tracking system--if terrorists wanted to get something like that, it wouldn't be hard. You could probably get one for < $500.
Another site i found, http://www.familydefense.com/13-tip.htm, sells a laser pointer that could easily be concealed in your hand and has a range of 1500 feet.
It would take an awful lot of modifications to make a laser like that work with any kind of tracking device - I'm sure it wouldn't be possible to get than kind of accuracy either withought extremely precise design and calibration - if it is happening (which I believe is possible), whoever is doing it would have to be using some serious equipment, not just a handheld laser pointer. Hitting a target as small as a pilot's eye at a range of 3000 feet and keeping it long enough to do damage would need some serious precision - anyway, at that range, the power of the laser would be significantly diminished.
When you have a laser that can fire 25 miles...
Also, it doesn't require anything big. The tracking system on my dad's telescope would work perfectly for something like this; duct tape the laser to the thing and do some math. Then input the coordinates into a computer program (there's some star tracking software that will let you put in your own coordinates and tracking speed) and set it up. If you miss one day, you can always adjust it for planes travelling the same route tomorrow.
Also, it doesn't require anything big. The tracking system on my dad's telescope would work perfectly for something like this; duct tape the laser to the thing and do some math. Then input the coordinates into a computer program (there's some star tracking software that will let you put in your own coordinates and tracking speed) and set it up. If you miss one day, you can always adjust it for planes travelling the same route tomorrow.
Not if you just aim at the cockpit and hope to get lucky. Notice that no one's really been hit by these things yet.
Besides, all you'd have to do to avoid it is shift sideways a few inches anyways; so they couldn't really hope to do serious damage without a laser wide enough to fill the entire cockpit; something like that that could blind the copilot too would have to be big enough to be mounted on a tank. I'm just saying it's (easily) technically feasible to get a laser beam to shine into an airplane cockpit and track.
Besides, all you'd have to do to avoid it is shift sideways a few inches anyways; so they couldn't really hope to do serious damage without a laser wide enough to fill the entire cockpit; something like that that could blind the copilot too would have to be big enough to be mounted on a tank. I'm just saying it's (easily) technically feasible to get a laser beam to shine into an airplane cockpit and track.
Care to rethink that?:Stryker wrote:Not if you just aim at the cockpit and hope to get lucky. Notice that no one's really been hit by these things yet.
Besides, all you'd have to do to avoid it is shift sideways a few inches anyways; so they couldn't really hope to do serious damage without a laser wide enough to fill the entire cockpit; something like that that could blind the copilot too would have to be big enough to be mounted on a tank. I'm just saying it's (easily) technically feasible to get a laser beam to shine into an airplane cockpit and track.
"The jet, a chartered Cessna Citation, was landing Dec. 29 with six people aboard when a green light beam struck the windshield three times at about 3,000 feet, according to court documents. The pilot and co-pilot were temporarily blinded but were able to land the plane safely"
It's possible that the beam could be widened. Ever seen some of the modern laser levels? Those things can project a line instead of a straight beam. That would radically increase the chances of being able to hit a target; and you could probably get a similar range, if slightly shorter.
Also, "green light beam" could mean anything from a giant spotlight with a green filter over it to a green laser to a green LED flashlight. It's hard to tell from the wording of that article.
Also, "green light beam" could mean anything from a giant spotlight with a green filter over it to a green laser to a green LED flashlight. It's hard to tell from the wording of that article.
Sorry for the long quote, but the site required registration.
Ubiquitous Lasers Pose Aviation Problem
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 10, 2005
Filed at 10:13 p.m. ET
NEW YORK (AP) -- Lasers mark dates on boxes of butter. They cut gems and engrave vehicle identification numbers into cars. They are the key components in compact disc and DVD players. Like so much in the high-tech world, they keep getting cheaper and more powerful. And with at least eight reports in recent weeks of lasers pointed at aircraft cockpits as they approached for landing, their ubiquity could pose a problem for aviation.
A New Jersey man was arrested Tuesday after authorities say he admitted to pointing a laser at a helicopter and a jet. The FBI and Department of Homeland Security sent a memo to law enforcement agencies last month saying they had evidence terrorists have explored using lasers as weapons.
Federal officials have said there is no evidence the recent cases are part of a terrorist plot, and such incidents are nothing new: a Federal Aviation Administration study said ``several hundred'' similar cases have been reported since the mid 1990s.
Despite their ubiquity, lasers fall under strict government scrutiny.
The Food and Drug Administration regulates lasers and divides them into four classes. Midlevel lasers are the type used in supermarket scanners. Class four lasers pose an eye and skin hazard.
Companies that manufacture lasers, integrate lasers into another product or modify lasers must file paperwork on their products with the FDA.
But at least one company, which claims to be an ``original equipment manufacturer,'' sells lasers to anyone with a credit card. A laser advertised as ``strong enough to burn holes in a black trash bag'' sells for $289.
Lasers like those are ``orders of magnitude stronger than what it takes to injure an eye,'' said William J. Ertle, president of Rockwell Laser Industries Inc., which sells protective eyewear to use with lasers. The fact that such lasers are available online is ``scary and concerning,'' he said.
Jerry Dennis, an FDA consumer safety officer who monitors lasers, said lasers sold by original equipment manufacturers ``are strictly for use as components, rather than for use to the general public.''
``We are addressing that particular concern as best we can,'' he said.
But ``we don't control the sales. We regulate the products,'' Dennis said. ``When the law was written, that was the extent of the authority given to us.
Wickedlaser.com did not immediately respond to an e-mail seeking comment, and a receptionist at the phone number listed in the domain name's registration records said she knew nothing about the company.
The site warned that ``Lasers are very dangerous and not toys. ... Never point a laser at a moving vehicle or airplane. Shining a laser at an airplane is a serious felony in the United States.''
Lasers have gone from laboratory rarities to cheap giveaways. The first laser, made in 1960, used an expensive ruby crystal. Now key chains with laser pointers sell for $1.75.
David Banach, 38, the man charged with using a laser to temporarily blind the pilot and co-pilot of a plane flying near the Teterboro, N.J., airport, bought the laser on the Internet for $100 to use for his job testing fiber-optic cable, his lawyer said. Banach has said he was using the laser to look at the stars with his 7-year-old daughter.
Some sporting venues and school systems have strict prohibitions on laser pointers. They are banned in Malaysia, at Philadelphia Eagles football games and many school districts.
Laser light shows are also regulated. Standards are recommended to the FDA by a committee of experts that includes a research optometrist who works for the FAA, as well as representatives from the U.S. Navy, NASA and the International Laser Display Association.
Companies that put on laser light shows must get FDA approval; companies that do shows outdoors are also reviewed by the FAA.
Some pilots are asking whether there's a way to alert crews when a laser has targeted their plane. The FAA study, released in June, found that even the lowest-intensity lasers temporarily impaired the vision of most of 34 pilots it studied in a flight simulator.
The U.S. Navy expects to roll out a detection device early this year for military use. It can be mounted to a plane's bulkhead and will alert a flight crew if their plane is being tracked by a laser.
Under development for 2 1/2 years, the laser event recorder uses software algorithms to measure a laser's intensity and compute whether it could hurt a crew's eyes.
Its normally green display panel emits a yellow light if the plane is being tracked by a laser that can't harm vision. If that laser can affect vision, red will appear to warn the pilot to wear protective eye gear or take evasive action. The Navy Air Systems Command has also developed protective eyewear for different laser wavelengths, said James Darcy, a spokesman for the Navy Air Systems Command.
The device is smaller than a box of macaroni and cheese, runs on AA batteries and has a flash memory card that takes a picture of where the laser emanated. It also uses the Global Positioning System to record the plane's location when the laser was detected.
The recorder is expected to cost about $3,000 per unit, though it's unclear whether they'll ever make it into commercial airplanes.
James Engel, president of Optra Inc., which will make the recorders, said he's received no inquiries from commercial airliners. Beside the Navy, only the Airline Pilots' Security Alliance, an advocacy group, has inquired about the device.
FAA Wants Stepped Up
Laser Incident Reporting
Air traffic controllers and pilots must step up
reporting of lasers being directed toward aircraft after
several apparent incidents of lasers being directed
near or into cockpits during the past few months.
FAA released formal guidance earlier this week for
controllers and pilots to use when they encounter
lasers during flight, and U.S. Transportation Secretary
Norman Mineta officially unveiled the guidance yesterday
at an event in Oklahoma City.
Controllers have to report laser use through the
Domestic Events Network (DEN) that supports realtime
information sharing by FAA, TSA and other government
agencies.
If the event happens near an ATC facility, controllers
must notify flights in the Automatic Terminal
Information System (ATIS) for at least an hour following
the event. Cautions will also be broadcast on
certain control frequencies.
FAA said pilots should avoid an area where laser
use has been reported within the previous 20 minutes
if â??practicable.â?
Laser Incident Reporting
Air traffic controllers and pilots must step up
reporting of lasers being directed toward aircraft after
several apparent incidents of lasers being directed
near or into cockpits during the past few months.
FAA released formal guidance earlier this week for
controllers and pilots to use when they encounter
lasers during flight, and U.S. Transportation Secretary
Norman Mineta officially unveiled the guidance yesterday
at an event in Oklahoma City.
Controllers have to report laser use through the
Domestic Events Network (DEN) that supports realtime
information sharing by FAA, TSA and other government
agencies.
If the event happens near an ATC facility, controllers
must notify flights in the Automatic Terminal
Information System (ATIS) for at least an hour following
the event. Cautions will also be broadcast on
certain control frequencies.
FAA said pilots should avoid an area where laser
use has been reported within the previous 20 minutes
if â??practicable.â?