Joystick Recomends for D3 on Windows XP

[mtnview]

I am trying to get D3 up and running on my new XP machine and would like to hear any recommendations for a joystick.

My old MS PP doesn't work right as my gameport to USB adaptor seems to only support analog. My MB is an i865 and does not have a gameport or sound card (ie onboard sound) So I am just thinking of getting a new joystick.

I have heard that Saitek has some good ones? Thanks.

Mtnview

[CDN_Merlin]

Logitech Freedom
Logitech Extreme 3d pro

[snoopy]

I run sound off of my motherboard, but have an anchient sound card in the machine, just for the gameport so I can keep playing with my d3 pro. So, I'd reccomend the same, but that's just 'cause I'm addicted to the good old 3d pro.

[CDN_Merlin]

Actually, most Mobo's that have onboard sound come with a special add on slot that has a game port on it.

[Top Gun]

The Saitek Cyborg Evo is my own personal choice. Looks cool, too.

[mtnview]

Thanks for the feedback.

CDN-Merlin - do you mean I can find a gameport slot that will just plug into my mb somewhere? ie not a card but just a gameport that has a plug-in attached? I will try and see if my mobo has this plug-in.

Snoopy - what old soundcard are you using? so the soundcard runs the gameport but is not activated for sound? am I on the right track? so if I installed a sound card I would have to keep it disabled on the install process? Would I encounter extra troubles this way?

My mb is an Intel i865.

Mtnview

[Mobius]

gameport = dumb.
MS 3D Pro = old sack of useless crap.

Concur with the Logitech 3D pro, or Freedom 2.4 - but buy it from somewhere close, as you'll be taking it ack for replacement about 6 times.

No one makes durable sticks these days - at least not ones which take a lot of abuse on the HAT switch. Yes, the old-arse 3D Pro is tough as all hell, but the action on it sucks donkey testicles compared to te new sticks available.

[Grendel]

Concur with the Logitech 3D pro, or Freedom 2.4 - but buy it from somewhere close, as you'll be taking it ack for replacement about 6 times.

..a week.

And no, the 3DP holds it's own. I used it for a few years in SP, then in MP. Switched over to LogiCrap. At the time I dropped LC (after about 6 months) I was just par w/ my 3DP skills. Using a M$ FF2 now w/ a 3DP as backup -- exceeding LC by far.

Mobi, sometimes I think you are an Logitech employee. What do they pay you for the trolling ?

[Genghis]

Buy a $20 sound card and a $10 3DPro and you're good to go.

[Unix]

Mobi, sometimes I think you are an Logitech employee. What do they pay you for the trolling ?

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that everyone on this board knows that you hate 3dPros.

And maybe sickone could change your rank to 3DPro-Hater just to make sure.

And Genghis x2

[CDN_Merlin]

mtnview, you should of received the thing in your motherboard box. It's just a cover with the joystick plug on it that goes where a normal PCI card would connect to the case and then plug the wires into the MB.

If not, then you are SOL.

[Top Gun]

Modern sticks have better action, Mob? If I wanted a stick that had a mile of throw, I would have bought a 3-foot one. The 3DPro had precise action, a short throw, good button placement, and a comfortable feel, which is more than I can say about any Logitech stick I've seen/used.

[mtnview]

Greetings,

Well, my i865 mb had no plug-in on it for a gameport connection and I wanted to just stay with the Soundmax onboard sound so I sprung for Saitek Cyborg Evo USB joystick.

I've created a restore point on my XP disabled my anti-virus etc before I give a try with my Descent 3 install(the card board slot version) and if successful will then install the 1.4 patch.

The joystick manual says you can just install the drivers without all the other software so I will probably only do the drivers.

Also picked up a CD of Descent 3 Mercenary for next to nothing at a used place.

Mtnview

[Mobius]

No - I don't hate the 3D Pro at all. In its day it was the #1 stick. Up until the new generation of pure digital sticks it ruled the roost with no competition at all. I still have 2 brand new ones - and can't bring myself to chuck them out for some reason. My first 3DPro lasted 5 years of hard-out abuse. Repairing it made it last another 2 years with infrequent use.

No - my argument against the 3D Pro in 2005 is that it has been radically surpassed in accuracy and control ability by just about every stick available.

If you used a 3D Pro for as long as I did - then yeah - a new stick can feel pretty bad - and it can take a couple of weeks (Say 50 hours use) before your brain instinctively knows how the new stick behaves, and pulls it accordingly.

Because of this fact, I am 100% convinced you old 3D Pro geezers have simply never given a new stick a chance to show your skills. Believe me, if you tamed a 2.4 Freedom, you would NEVER go back to a 3D Pro. It's just that simple: it's a much better stick. Far superior. No comparison, in fact.

The sad fact they break with monotonous regularity is a real shame, but doesn't prevent it being far better than a 3D Pro...

All you need is a good relationship with your retailer, and the phone number of the Logitech distributor!

[Avder]

[Grendel]

Up until the new generation of pure digital sticks it ruled the roost with no competition at all.

You are mistaken -- the 3DP and PP are the only pure digital sticks in this discussion. The Logicrap sticks all have analog pickups. Even supposedly "digital" sticks like the P2, FF2 or X54 use pots in the R & Z axis.

No - my argument against the 3D Pro in 2005 is that it has been radically surpassed in accuracy and control ability by just about every stick available.

Wrong. It's as good as any Saitek or LC stick.

Believe me, if you tamed a 2.4 Freedom, you would NEVER go back to a 3D Pro. It's just that simple: it's a much better stick. Far superior. No comparison, in fact.

Wrong (again..) Been there done that. No need to "tame" that thing BTW, you should be good after 1hrs. I'd have stayed w/ the LC if it would've been more reliable. Going back the 3DP OTOH was really easy.

[Fusion]

Despite Gren's Issues w/ the Logitech Sticks, (and w/all due respect to ur opinion Gren) I use the Freedom 2.4 Stick and have not had to replace it, which I think is a good thing. I have used it on my Mac and My PC w/np.
If you have decided to go w/the EVO, more Power to ya my friend. My first USB Stick was the Saitek Cyborg 3D USB. A Great stick, had it since D3 came out. But after going thru the Thrustmaster Top Gun Fox2Pro sticks multiple times(hat dieing on me) I went w/the 2.4 w/the EVO as my Backup.
We can offer suggestions and opinions here, but the decision is ultimately up to you. Find and use the config you feel comfortable with. That is what it boils down to when all is said and done.

Fus

[WarAdvocat]

soundcard + MS 3DPro

They just don't make 'em like they used to.

My JS experiences:

I started D3 on a MS Precision Pro. From Day 1, one of the buttons on the base didn't work correctly, so I returned it for a replacement. I found that I wore out buttons on this stick more frequently than I broke hat switches, but I had both issues. A year or two went by, I bought a couple replacements, and returned the old sticks in the new box for a refund until the advent of the precision 2 and dial-up replacement sticks.

I began using the precision 2, and continued having the same issues I'd experienced with the precision pro, but now my predominant issue was the hat switch pivot point snapping on me, with very rare button failures. I griped, moaned, called in for replacements every few months, and pretty much went on with my life.

AT some point, MS decided not to make game controllers anymore. Apparently they felt it was a safer bet than attempting a re-design of their flawed precision 2.

Rather than attempt to secure supplies of this soon-to-become rare stick, I decided to try a new joystick...

And I found out how good I'd had it when I switched over to the Logitech "Extreme" 3D stick. The stick itself is an awesome controller. I loved the tension of the design, and the responsiveness of the hardware. Unfortunately, these only lasted for a couple weeks.

It seems that the combination of twisting & turning that is a hallmark of Descent play is Anathema to these sticks. The harder you play, the sooner the stick breaks. Within two weeks, often sooner (several times even right out of the box, leading me to believe that the retailer was 'refurbishing' returned sticks), the stick would begin to yaw sharply right when it was moved even slightly in that direction. More alarming, though, was the tendency to randomly just turn right even when nominally centered.

I spent WAAAAY too much time dealing with joystick problems while using this stick. Avoid logitech like the plague...

Finally, I went retro. I have had 2 MS 3DPro sticks sitting in my closet for years. Given that I had decided to change my configuration, I decided it was time to change sticks too. I whipped them out and they were just what the doctor ordered.

Heck, I'm halfway to not-sucking!

Fusion: With all due respect to you as a person, you probably shouldn't give joystick advice to anyone until you use them a little harder

[suicide eddie]

broken everything i,av had so far, except for saitek x52 that got returned due to a bad rotation around the axes and a horendous deadzone. trying a evo force now, seems solid enought but still has a big deadzone. i,am also looking at the ch range of sticks which do have spare parts available and still have not found any mention of them braking yet during normal use except for a few that found faulty at time of purchase or during transit.

[WarAdvocat]

What we do does NOT constitute normal use, at least not if we go by the extremely high rate of joystick breakage we experience.

We need milspec sticks or something

[Top Gun]

I ask again: how exactly do you people flat-out break so many sticks? You do realize that pressing a trigger down with all of your might won't make the shots do more damage, or that slamming the stick to the left won't make you turn any faster, don't you? Seriously, though, I know the type of flying that being good at this game entails; I know the range of motions and quick changes that Descent requires of any stick. What I can't figure out, however, is how anyone can break a brand-new stick after just two weeks of playing. Maybe I'm the odd man out here, and maybe this explains my low level of D skills, but I've always taken the philosophy of being light-handed with any controller, be it console, mouse, keyboard, or stick. In fact, I can't see how being heavy-handed with a stick could make you perform any better; I know that if I tried it, I wouldn't be able to fly straight. A firm yet loose grip on the stick, a delicate touch, and I'm golden. I mean no offense to anyone by this statement, but maybe the problem with the sticks isn't the actual design of the stick. Maybe it's the way you use it.

[Unix]

I've had the same 3DPro since I started playing this damn game.

[bash]

TG: The hats break. With so much chording and 6dof dodging, if you're not working the hell out of that hat, you're dead.

[Grendel]

What I can't figure out, however, is how anyone can break a brand-new stick after just two weeks of playing.

In case of the Logitech sticks it's a design flaw -- LT's user forum is full of complaints w/ the D3 players in the minority

Generally speaking, the jerking motions required by D3 pack a nice strain on any analog pickup. Also hat switches are usually not designed to be used as a full time motion controller ("use it to scoll the map" is a typical advice), that I'd think is a Descent "special".

[Top Gun]

Well, I still stand by my "gentle touch" method. After over 5 years of use, the only thing I ever broke on my 3DPro was the analog selector switch, which I conveniently don't need.

[Fusion]

Fusion: With all due respect to you as a person, you probably shouldn't give joystick advice to anyone until you use them a little harder

WA, I respect your position. My advice still has a certain logic. mtnview should choose whichever stick/config that he is comfortable with. What works for one person doesn't mean that it will work for some1 else. Opinion source, 4th and 5th paragraphs.

Well, I still stand by my "gentle touch" method.

TG, I think it is ur theory that is why I haven't had to replace my 2.4.

This is a subject that everyone will agree/disagree/debate over, Similar to past debates concerning AMD vs Intel CPU's. People will have their opinions, and will voice them.

Just my 2 cents.

Fus

[WarAdvocat]

FUSION:

With respect to the Logitech sticks:

It's a design flaw and/or cheap parts issue. DO NOT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS. The combination of simultaneous TWIST and PITCH/YAW motions cause these sticks to have a HARDWARE FAILURE which results in UNCONTROLLED MOVEMENT in-game within a relatively short amount of time (a mere TWO WEEKS for me)

Your mileage may vary, but if you're not having problems with the stick, it's because of glaring omissions on your part, or sheer luck. More frightening yet, maybe it's happening and it just doesn't bother you.

On another note, YES, MS3DPros appear to be sturdy, well-made sticks. The hats seem to be a bit fickle according to anecdotal evidence, but I don't use hat switches anyhow

[Top Gun]

I will agree with you on that point, WA. I had a Wingman Force 3D, and besides having a dead zone the size of Montana and no centering force (even with force feedback turned on), the twist on the thing was extremely buggy. If you twisted a little to the left, it would suddenly spike to the right. The whole thing suddenly went uncontrollable after a few months of use. Luckily, by that time we had upgraded to XP, and my trusty old 3DPro worked like a gem again.

[Fusion]

FUSION:

With respect to the Logitech sticks:

It's a design flaw and/or cheap parts issue. DO NOT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS. The combination of simultaneous TWIST and PITCH/YAW motions cause these sticks to have a HARDWARE FAILURE which results in UNCONTROLLED MOVEMENT in-game within a relatively short amount of time (a mere TWO WEEKS for me)

Uh, WA...
I don't use R axis.

Your mileage may vary, but if you're not having problems with the stick, it's because of glaring omissions on your part, or sheer luck. More frightening yet, maybe it's happening and it just doesn't bother you.

I'll take the luck theory.

Fus

[WarAdvocat]

Uh, WA...
I don't use R axis.

...heh

[[]V[]essenjah]

Mobius, I think this is one case where you are full of it, sorry to say. No, we are not all perfect.

Anyway, I started out with a precision pro 1 and I sucked worse than on keyboard using the following configuration:

A= Forwords
Z=Backwords
S= AB
H= Headlight
Ctl= Primary
Space= Secondary
Shift= Toggle Pitch
Arrow keys for pitching and banking.

I got a ugly sluggish Precision 1. It was sluggish, the hat was concave but was way to small so my thumb slid off from it constantly and eventually the axis for the stick itself started doing funny things every once in a while so I decided to try something different.


I got a 3D Pro. Smooth ride all the way, my gaming improved by miles! I loved that stick. I never busted it and it functioned perfectly. Then I upgraded and it wouldn't function any longer so it ended up in Utah with my bro who could never figure out what was wrong with it. Guess I just needed a sound card. Might get another stick and an old soundcard now.

Then I tried a Wingman Extreme. I liked the fact that it was much more durable, however, I hated the convex shape of the hat switch, with hands that sweat a lot (due to a blood flow issue) it became impossible after a few seconds of play to control my slides period. The abbrasions in the convex hat wore down on my thumb making them extremely raw and sore. Not to mention the wonderfull bottom part that cut into my wrist and left red scratches across it. I also found the stiff feel of the stick to wear my arms and hands out trying to use it and it just felt uncomfortable.

So I tried mouse, then keyboard only again. I just couldn't get the swing of things again after using a joystick for two years. So, I went back to my old Precision 1 and it felt nice but felt too loose. It also felt sluggish compared to the precise feel of the 3D pro. I also liked the fact that the secondary button on the 3D pro was exactly where I needed it. Right under my thumb that was placed firmly on the hat. The hat was also nice and big and concave so it matched the shape of my thumb perfectly. It was also nice and smooth so it didn't make my thumbs feel raw like the Logitech.


Then I bought a Precision 2:

The hat was bigger and was much easier to use. The button below the hat was too low for any sort of use. The other buttons I manged to make compensate for that flaw. However, it felt sluggish like the Precision 1. However, it was still a step up from it with the larger hat.

Thus 3D Pro OWNZ!!!1

[Sligar]

Re the Logitech freedom, yes it does have failures. However, it also has the best feel of any joystick I have used so far (for descent), those being the saitek evo, ms 3d pro, and an ancient mac-only thrustmaster that didn't have twist. Very precise feel. Anyway, I have heard that the wireless ones last longer than the non-wireless type, so I got the wireless. I haven't been playing much lately, but playing almost every day for a while it lasted a few months before the uncontrollable rotation problems started. So do I recommend it? Well only if you know what you are getting into, and are comfortable with taking a js back a million times. I got the replacement policy at circuit city, so I can just take it down there and swap it anytime for the next 3-5 years, forgot how long. Do NOT order it online from someplace where you will have to mail it back, you'll end up paying more in shipping than the thing is worth. And don't get the replacement policy from Best Buy, its only good for a single replacement and so its no better than the warrantee alone.

[BUBBALOU]

why buy from a mouse maker ?

if you are really into descent and or flight sims buy a joystick for a lifetime.. CH Products

[Grendel]

CH Products

Nice sticks. No twist tho..

[BUBBALOU]

rudder pedals, twist is evil on the wrist

[[]V[]essenjah]

Roll only hurts if you use the logicrap extreme sticks :\ I don't know if the newer sticks are better though. Roll hurt and cut up my arm. That's why I tossed it out. I may eventually try one of their sticks.


These sticks you (Bubbalou) showed look ok but they are still look too bulky and have the secondary button in the wrong place.

[BUBBALOU]

actually the secondary button is under your pinky or under your thumb your choice



These joysticks are absolutely awsome in flight sims and space sims and will last many years. I have given away my gameport version that lasted me over 7 years..to a budding Descenter

[[]V[]essenjah]

No no no, I'm talking about the thumbpad and the secondary button being directly under your thumb. The secondary button is directly behind it on a 3D pro. That is to the side bud. The secondary button is almost exactly where it is on an MS Precision Pro 1 and 2. The only difference is that the hat will tear the hell out of the bottom of my thumb on this stick. The thumbpad is convex, not concave and has nice rough edges make my thumbs hurt like hell afterwords. The problem is that my hands sweat from a circulation condition that I have. When my hand sweats which is nearly every second of my life, boom, my thumb slides off so I have to get a death grip on it and I still ocasionally slide off. I get nasty thumb burn. Just like logitech thumbpads. Nice, pointy, and rough.

When I mean directly under the nice BIG thumbpad of a 3D pro, I mean that it is exactly 180 degrees vertically under it. Thumbpad at the 12:00 position and the secondary button at the 6:00 position.

[BUBBALOU]

??? what...??? check your medication and...look again bud...

The 8-way hat is at the top right and the secondary is below right in the natural resting position of your thumb for this joystick (or pinky if you choose it to be). You can also bind macros to these joysticks without the software running as a a service (it gets programed into joystick not as a TSR like logitech...etc) Another nice thing is if you have mulitple CH prodcuts, you can make them all look like and act as 1 joystick for games that DO NOT accept multiple Controller Input.

I am very serious when I say..if you buy any of these joysticks .. you will not buy anything else ever again.. and you can upgrade piece by piece. Why do you think Falcon Northwest offers these with every system

[Top Gun]

Wow...that Falcon Northwest company looks awesome.

I'll have to admit, those CH sticks/throttles look very professional and durable. The styling isn't quite to my taste, but I can see that they're definitely quality products. One question, though; if the stick doesn't twist, what do you use for rolling in D3? A separate control on the throttle? Anyway, I can imagine a HOTAS setup like one of those or the Saitek X52 absolutely owning in Freespace.