Bailing out CA

[woodchip]

Seems Arnie is heading to the Feds to help with CA 8 billion dollar deficit. In short Arnie wants all of us to feel the pain. Perhaps Govenator, you should reduce the CA prison medical plan that allows for trans-gender operations and male breast reduction treatments, or have some oversite on your states 50 BILLION education budget. Stop allowing illegals from accessing free state medical care and send all the criminal illegals in lock-up back to the boarder so the Mexican govt. can deal with them. Who knows, a few billion saved here and a few billion saved there....pretty soon you've shaved real money from the deficit. Don't ask me to help out though.

[Gooberman]

lol, I just watched that episode of Bill O'reilly too.

[Bold Deceiver]

Don't ask me to help out though.

Chipster, we have a problem.

I recognize that California is completely insane and largely responsible for its own budget deficit. But we have another, more localized problem too. When the federal government fails to secure U.S. / Mexico border, California and other border states bear a huge expense.

Why? Because our population has become so swollen with illegal immigrants, we're gaining new U.S. citizens every day -- by birthright. The state has to educate these kids. I've seen estimates in the billions of dollars that we're spending to educate children from families of illegal Mexican immigrants.

I think a California taxpayer tried to sue the U.S. government a while back, based on this very issue. It kind of brings it to a nub.

Should border states alone, be forced to absorb the cost of the federal government's failure to secure the border?

BD

[Ferno]

oh boy...

[woodchip]

Should border states alone, be forced to absorb the cost of the federal government's failure to secure the border?BD

The short answer is no. The federal govt. bears the responsibility of protecting the nation and its BORDERS.
The longer amswer is more difficult. In CA case, the liberal legislatures made it too easy for immigrants. Once in the state the illegals now had free schooling for the kids and free medical care. In short CA put the honey out on the window sill and the flies magnatised to it. So the question is, "How much of CA deficit problem due to illegals is borne by the feds for not properly controlling the boarders and how much is born by CA for permitting illegals full access to programs paid for by legal citizens?"
I'm all for paying my fair share to protect the boarders but not to give free medical care and education to people who have no respect for our country and enter it surreptitiously.

[Lothar]

[spelling police]

Boarders are people who do one of the following:
- pay money for regular meals (as in, room and board)
- make way onto a ship during an assault
- ride a skateboard or snowboard

Borders are the outer edges or boundaries of things, such as countries.

[/spelling police]

[woodchip]

Thank you for that illuminating and informative post Mr Webster
I repaired the gaff.

[Bold Deceiver]

Should border states alone, be forced to absorb the cost of the federal government's failure to secure the border?BD

Once in the state the illegals now had free schooling for the kids and free medical care. In short CA put the honey out on the window sill and the flies magnatised to it.

Well yes, but wait a minute. Which kids? If you're talking about Mexican children of Mexican parents who transported them here illegally, then I agree they should all be deported. Evem though that's the job of the federal government.

But children born on this soil are Americans, no matter where their parents come from. So it's not as though we can just send them all to [insert Woodchip's state here]. So how do we deal with these little ones, is my question? We can't simply penalize them for having parents who illegally circumvent the immigration system, by refusing to school them. Seems like that only perpetuates an already impossible problem.

Needin' yer help in Cali,

BD

[woodchip]

But children born on this soil are Americans, no matter where their parents come from. So it's not as though we can just send them all to [insert Woodchip's state here]. So how do we deal with these little ones, is my question? We can't simply penalize them for having parents who illegally circumvent the immigration system, by refusing to school them. Seems like that only perpetuates an already impossible problem.

Needin' yer help in Cali,

BD

So somewhere in the US Constitution it states babies born on american soil by illegal aliens are US citizens? The mother is already 6 months pregnant prior to sneaking over the boarder, waits three months while hiding out here then drops her load and presto a new american is born? If, as some propose, life begins at conception, then perhaps citizenship should begin at country of origin. Mexico has no such allowance for illegals who give birth in Mexico so why should we? Perhaps the federal govt here should "confiscate" the newly born "citizen", pack the illegal parents back to Mexico and give the baby to some nice american childless couple. Harsh? Perhaps, but then expecting all of us to foot the bill (welfare payments to the illegal immigrant parents of the now newly born "citizen", free medical care, education etc) for illegal offspring is just as harsh and well...ludicrous

[Will Robinson]

The idea of every child born here is automatically a citizen is a good one. Otherwise you have politicians deciding who gets to be a citizen based on some arbitrary criteria.

Like when Hillary's health care plan would have been able to decide what city and state a medical student could work as an intern and even which field of medicine they could study based on the governments need.

"Sorry, you wanted to be a plastic surgeon in Hollywood but we need proctologists in Alabama so off you go"

'So, you were born here but your parents are radical anarchists and unemployed so off to the international adoption pool you go.'

[Dedman]

I actually agree with both Will and BD. Thatâ??s the third sign of the apocalypse IIRC.

[dissent]

At least one reason why the US is a magnet for both legal and illegal immigration is that there are jobs here. Sometimes low paying hard physical labor, i.e., in the ag-biz, but they form a cheap labor source that helps keep down the cost to American consumers. Aren't we trying to have it both ways? Some might read it as implicit in some of the earlier discussion that many of these immigrants are just getting on the public dole, but my experience with Mexicans I know is that when they first get here they are willing to take just about any job, and sometimes more than one, working any hours, and have a very family centered work ethic. Do some come to just mooch off the system - sure, but just the same as some of the native born moochers, of all colors and ethnic backgrounds.

[woodchip]

The idea of every child born here is automatically a citizen is a good one. Otherwise you have politicians deciding who gets to be a citizen based on some arbitrary criteria.

'So, you were born here but your parents are radical anarchists and unemployed so off to the international adoption pool you go.'

Absurd. No politician who wants to get elected will ever contemplate such lunacy. We're talking about illegals and their demon seed having absolutly no rights here except a ride to the border. Even then I'd send a bill to the mexican federalis for the expense there-in.

[Bold Deceiver]

The idea of every child born here is automatically a citizen is a good one. Otherwise you have politicians deciding who gets to be a citizen based on some arbitrary criteria.

'So, you were born here but your parents are radical anarchists and unemployed so off to the international adoption pool you go.'

Absurd. No politician who wants to get elected will ever contemplate such lunacy. We're talking about illegals and their demon seed having absolutly no rights here except a ride to the border. Even then I'd send a bill to the mexican federalis for the expense there-in.

I know you're kidding around here, Chip, but we're talking about innocent kids here. The Constitution is what it is, and we can certainly debate whether that's good policy. But babies born on this soil are as American as you, me, Birdseye, and Ronald Reagan. No less so.

And I echo the points made by Dissent. Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal) are, hardworking people, with no inbred victimology at work. I know this from years of personal experience as a carpenter, working the trades.

I would also point out to Dissent that although California (and the U.S.) may "benefit" from cheap labor, I think there's a good argument that we pay for it anyway -- in the form of education of illegals, medical assistance and welfare for illegals, and secondary effects from the artificial depression of wages. I'll bet it's a wash.

Finally, I must take umbrage (I have no idea what the word means) at Dedman's statement that he "actually" agrees with both Will and me. As if agreeing with us is something odd, or creepy? I demand a retraction of the word "actually"!!!

just kidding,

BD

[Dedman]

As if agreeing with us is something odd, or creepy?

Well, it's odd AND creepy that I agree with both of you at the same time. The righties on this board must be starting to rub off on me

Seriously though, having grown up in southern California I have seen the problem first hand. I have seen what happens to local economies when the INS comes through and cleans house.

I can appreciate where Woodchip is coming from as far as the burden to society a lot of these folks cause, but I also know that that same society has a real need for cheap labor.

There has to be a solution both side can live with. Sealing the borders may sound like a good idea to some, but without a corresponding guest worker program (or something like it) Americans would get tired of paying $5 for a head of lettuce extremely fast.

[Bold Deceiver]

As if agreeing with us is something odd, or creepy?

I can appreciate where Woodchip is coming from as far as the burden to society a lot of these folks cause, but I also know that that same society has a real need for cheap labor.

There has to be a solution both side can live with. Sealing the borders may sound like a good idea to some, but without a corresponding guest worker program (or something like it) Americans would get tired of paying $5 for a head of lettuce extremely fast.

I hear ya. But I am a huge fan of sealing the borders. I'll pay an extra $5.00 for the lettuce, if I can shave that off my state taxes (which are ghastly out here, by the way.)

Don't get me wrong. I think legal immigrants are an artery of lifeblood of freedom in this country, because oftentimes they know that what we take for granted should not be taken for granted. But illegal immigration is a huge problem, without even considering the homeland security aspect of it -- I say cut it off.

BD

[woodchip]

What I have a hard time understanding is why the illegals can't come here legally. Get a temporary work permit at the very least.
There is a second downside to cavalierly turning your cheek to this problem. How many of these people get abused and/or put into vitual slavery. How many of these children wind up working right alongside their parents as field hands as a source of even cheaper labor? How many kids become prostitute just to help make ends meet while they live here under the shadowy roof of illegality. I guess thats O.K. just so long as our lawns get mowed and lettuse costs 1.50. Amazing Dedman...now I'm starting to sound like a whiney liberal

[Bold Deceiver]

What I have a hard time understanding is why the illegals can't come here legally. Get a temporary work permit at the very least.

You know, I think that's Bush's plan -- and I'm not sure I'm on board with it. You can sell it any way you like, but it walks and talks and quacks like amnesty -- one of Reagan's biggest mistakes back in 1985 (what were you thinkin' Ron????).

I agree a solution is definitely required. Just gotta find one.

BD

[Stryker]

The INS needs to be screwed anyways. I've done a debate tournament on the US's immigration policy--researching this stuff really in depth gives you an idea of how truly screwed up this country's immigration laws are. If it could be done, I'd recommend doing away with the population caps--our country has this insane paranoia about too many people coming into the country at the same time. Thus, only about 100,000 people are allowed to immigrate to the US legally each year; and that's including temporary permits. Plus, there are totally inane and senseless requirements imposed on immigrants--you cannot legally immigrate to the US if you have flat feet!

The only way our country can have the best of both worlds (cheap labor and secure borders) is to completely pack up the corrupt and inefficient INS and get some of the holes in our borders filled up so the unsavory types can't come in, then allow anyone who wants to come in to come in--provided they meet a few basic criteria, such as no immigrants with a history including violent crime, or suspected of being terrorists. There should be a way of getting around being a suspected terrorist; such as finding a way to prove to the US government that you are not and do not want to be a terrorist. That falls under the government's authority of protecting the country.

You get the cheap labor from hard-working immigrants, you get the relative security of the border (since the tidal wave of illegal immigrants coming across the borders keeps border patrol agents etc will probably be coming in legally now, you won't have agiencies overworked trying to process hundreds of thousands of illegals every year, so they can focus on the real bad guys), and you still have a screening process that keeps out the people that really SHOULD be kept out, such as violent criminals. Approximately 30% of our nation's prisoners are illegal immigrants--why hasn't this been resolved? How did these people slip through the system--was it just overworked, as seems to be the case? Why aren't the illegal immigrants in our jails picked up and shipped out of the country? Why are people who cross the border then go on a crime spree allowed to stay in our lands, with free cable TV and 3 hearty meals a day in our prisons?

The answer can only be that something is seriously wrong with our immigration policy, and that needs fixing. The question is, how? There are many ways of doing it, but many of them will have adverse effects in the future. I believe the ideas outlined above would prove effective in combating illegal immigration.

[woodchip]

Not amnesty. More like daddy gets a permit to work here, mommy and the kiddies stay back in Mexico. Daddy now pays taxes on his income. Work permit expires and back to mommy goes daddy until another permit is granted. Like clean and washed veggies...much more palatable to the american populus.

[dissent]

I would also point out to Dissent that although California (and the U.S.) may "benefit" from cheap labor, I think there's a good argument that we pay for it anyway -- in the form of education of illegals, medical assistance and welfare for illegals, and secondary effects from the artificial depression of wages. I'll bet it's a wash.

I'd be willing to bet you're right on that. So Woodchip's original argument about a billion here, etc. may fail to hold water. I'll bet someone has put out some measurements on relevent numbers, but I wouldn't know where to look.